Talk:Greater London

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edit·history·watch·refresh Stock post message.svg To-do list for Greater London:
  • Improve History section
  • Copyedit to give this article clear purpose in relation to the London article
  • Explain how powers and responsibilities are split between CoL, GLA, LA, ALG and London boroughs
  • Improve presentation of data and statistics
  • Extend the article's lead section

Population, etc.[edit]

I'm concerned we may have been conflating the ceremonial county and administrative areas in presentation of statistics. This is what I think we should be using for 2011. I'm putting it here in the hope someone could double check it for me.

Statistic City of London Greater London cc Greater London aa
Area 2.90 km2 1,569 km2 1,572 km2
Population 7,400 8,196,700 8,204,100
Density 2,500 /km2 5,223 /km2 5,218 /km2

The 'administrative area' population and area should be larger than that of the 'ceremonial county', by the amount of the City of London. MRSC (talk) 08:57, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Infobox[edit]

The infobox has turned into an awful fudge. Really unclear what it is trying to show. Perhaps a bespoke one is needed or some changes to the {{infobox English county}} to accommodate it. MRSC (talk) 14:58, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes. The infobox needs to allow the 'County' heading to be modified. It doesn't make sense having a fixed value when ceremonial countries across the country have additional administrative areas with various names such as 'unitary authority', 'metropolitan county', etc. In this case, we need to add 'Region' too. As for the rest of the infobox, the syntax is messy, but I think it relatively clearly distinguishes the region, administrative area, and ceremonial county. Do you have any other concerns other then the 'County' heading? Rob (talk | contribs) 15:21, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

It is very difficult to track down where the Population figure for the ceremonial county is held. It took a while, but I located it in Template:English_cerem_counties, which I've just updated to mid-2014 ONS data. Batternut (talk) 12:17, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Administrative area and region[edit]

Is there any evidence that the Greater London administrative area is actually a county-level administrative area covering the two ceremonial counties (Greater London and the City of London)? For example, there are other ceremonial counties with no administrative county, eg Bedfordshire and Cheshire. The Greater London administrative area has been designated as a region of England: the London region. The Greater London Authority was created in 1998, so why isn't it regarded simply as a regional authority?

no part of Greater London shall form part of any government administrative county, county district or parish.
–London Government Act 1963
The area comprising the areas of the London boroughs, the City and the Temples shall constitute an administrative area to be known as Greater London.
–London Government Act 1963

There is no reference in the Greater London Authority Act 1999 to the "administrative area".

After 1963, Greater London was sui generis administrative area covering two ceremonial counties and their 33 districts. However, since then Greater London has been defined as an official region of England and therefore no longer sui generis.

Also note that the Greater London Authority was created at the same time as the regional assemblies, although in separate legislation, and the London Development Agency (established by the Regional Development Agencies Act 1998) was part of the Greater London Authority.

“the London Development Agency” means the regional development agency established for the London region.
–Greater London Authority Act 1999

All of this makes me think we are over complicating things by distinguishing the Greater London administrative area from the London region. ie, the Greater London administrative area was simply the name for the area before it was defined as a region, with the region being also referred to as "Greater London".

Thoughts?

Rob984 (talk) 10:31, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

To be clear on what I'm proposing, I would change:

Greater London, or the London region, also forms an administrative area and region of England consisting of...

to

Greater London, or the London region, also forms a region of England used for administrative purposes consisting of...

As well as any related statements here or at London.

Rob984 (talk) 11:13, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Seems OK to me. The original citation on the London page that back the administrative area claim was Elcock, Howard (1994). Local Government: Policy and Management in Local Authorities. Routledge. p. 368. ISBN 978-0-415-10167-7.  was first published in 1982, pre-GLS. now, perhaps in the revised version, it doesn't mention any "administrative area" (at least when searching with Google books). Batternut (talk) 13:46, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
One word of caution: the region is not called Greater London, but simply London. In infoboxes etc it should continue to be "Region: London". Argovian (talk) 16:31, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 external links on Greater London. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

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YesY Archived sources have been checked to be working

Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 19:35, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

Hatnote[edit]

  1. "For the capital of the United Kingdom, see London"
  2. "For other aspects of the UK capital, see London"

IMO #1 is a poor choice of wording; it suggests the current article is about something unrelated to the capital of the United Kingdom which happens to have the same name. That of course is not true; the article is about one aspect of the UK capital, so wording #2 is more appropriate. the edit which changed #2 to #1 has summary "This an aspect, London is about the capital city as a whole. It discusses Greater London also" which is precisely the reason why #2 is better. jnestorius(talk) 09:16, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

I think your wording is somewhat convoluted and confusing. Greater London isn't London, its a region that corresponds to a large extent with London. In my opinion, the hatnote as is, is clear; even if not worded precisely. If the reader is looking for "the capital of the United Kingdom", London is where they should be. Possibly it could say "For the capital of the United Kingdom in general, see London" or similar? Rob984 (talk) 22:46, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
If the reader is looking for "the capital of the United Kingdom", they won't have arrived at Greater London in the first place. Which leads me to ask: can we just remove the London bit from the hatnote altogether? Or at a push add a {{main article}} hatnote. Explaining the difference between "London" and "Greater London" should be accomplished by the opening sentence of the article, which can also wikilink to London. Which would leave this:
This page is about the region and county. For the conurbation, see Greater London Built-up Area. For other uses, see London (disambiguation).
The last link will cater for those wanting to find out about Greater London, Ontario. jnestorius(talk) 23:37, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
I think the reason it is included is because there are [[Greater London|London]] links, as the region is officially called "London". But I agree with your suggestion to replace the hatnote with an explanation in the opening sentence. I'm not sure how to word it since there is no clear definition of London, i.e. we couldn't exactly say "Greater London is a region of England comprising most of London". Possibly referring to its status as the de facto municipal area of London?
Greater London, or London, is a region of England which functions as the municipal area for London. It comprises 33 districts—the 32 London boroughs and the City of London—each with their own local authority. The Greater London Authority is responsible for strategic local government across the region and consists of the Mayor of London and the London Assembly.
Rob984 (talk) 08:43, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
How about
London is a region of England based on London and comprising the ceremonial county of Greater London and the separate City of London at its centre. Greater London is subdivided into 32 London boroughs, which together with the City of London constitute 33 districts. The Greater London Authority is responsible for strategic local government across the region and consists of the Mayor of London and the London Assembly. The "Greater London Built-up Area" is the metropolitan area of London as defined by the Office for National Statistics, and includes suburbs in neighbouring regions.
The region covers 1,572 km2 (607 sq mi) and had a population of 8,174,000 at the 2011 census;[1][2] of this the City of London comprised 2.9 km2 (1.1 sq mi) and 7,375 people.[3] The region has the highest GVA per capita in the United Kingdom at £37,232.[4][5]
For ceremonial purposes, Greater London has its own Lord Lieutenant and High Sheriff, who have no jurisdiction over the City of London, which has two Sheriffs and a Commission of Lieutenancy headed by its Lord Mayor.
? jnestorius(talk) 10:05, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
We were only focusing on the opening sentence in regards to one issue. I think you now are trying to address a different issue that doesn't exist. Splitting the ceremonial county into its own paragraph was done for clarity. Your proposal is misleading as the region is often referred to as "Greater London", hence the Greater London Authority spanning the entire region, including the city. In standard usage, Greater London comprises all 33 districts. Usage referring to the ceremonial county is less common and so should always be qualified "ceremonial county of Greater London". Rob984 (talk) 11:38, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
Ceremonial counties are entirely separate from the region-county-district structure in England. The the region of London/Greater London has no county-level administrative areas. It only has districts which are effectively de facto unitary authorities, similar to Metropolitan boroughs. The Greater London Authority is a regional body, not a local authority in the conventional sense. Rob984 (talk) 11:44, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
  • I will accept that "Greater London" more often means the region than the ceremonial county, but I am not convinced that the region is more often called "Greater London" than "London"; have you any source for that? I suggest "Greater London" had more official backing from 1965 to 1994, but not since then. Googlefight: "the london region" site:.gov.uk "the greater london region" site:.gov.uk
  • This article is about both the region and the ceremonial county; relegating the ceremonial county to the second paragraph obscures that fact. "The ceremonial county of Greater London..." is misleading as it suggests that the link "Greater London" points to an article about the ceremonial county. Where an article discusses two things, the name of each thing should be in bold. The lede states that the ceremonial county was created in 1965 but not that the region was created in 1994; I think the point is that the current boundary of both region and county largely dates from 1965 (though not completely).
  • I find "which functions as the municipal area for London" obscure. Admittedly, "based on London" is vague; given that the term "London" is imprecise, that may not be a flaw. I am sure there are better wordings than either, if we could find one. Next iteration:
London, often called Greater London, is a region of England based on London. It comprises 33 districts: the 32 London boroughs and the City of London. The Greater London Authority is responsible for strategic local government across the region and consists of the Mayor of London and the London Assembly. The ceremonial county of Greater London covers the 32 London boroughs but excludes the City of London.[6][7][8]
jnestorius(talk) 11:02, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
I agree the link is misleading. And I suppose bolding the second use of "Greater London" might be helpful. I prefer two paragraphs, but I not too bothered about this so okay.
Why "often called Greater London"? Like you say, it was officially called "Greater London" and still is often. The legislation that embodies the structure of local governance in the region refers to "Greater London". It's not less correct, just a different official name. "often called" implies otherwise. Again I am not sure what issue you are trying to correct here. It is not implied that it is more often called "Greater London" than "London". I don't mind which order they, if you would prefer "London, or Greater London".
I would prefer to refer to is as a municipal area (which is what it is), but I accept it could really do with a source. "based on London" is okay.
Rob984 (talk) 17:53, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
Well, the Regions of England article has "London region (also known as Greater London)". My impression is that, when discussed as a region-like-other-regions, it is called "London"; when discussed as a sui-generis-administrative-area, it may be called by either name; if the sentence foregrounds the region aspect, it should give priority to the region name. But overall I think we have established enough agreement; I'm happy not to bother debating every punctilio. jnestorius(talk) 09:40, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
Just for your information: I explained in a thread above that the Greater London Authority wasn't designated to an "administrative area". The regions of England were legally defined in 1998, when the GLA was established, as well as the 8 regional chambers. Greater London was defined in the London Government Act 1963 as an "administrative area"—but since the same area is now a region, it is no longer sui generis.
So we in agreement on...
London, or Greater London, is a region of England based on London. It comprises 33 districts: the 32 London boroughs and the City of London. The Greater London Authority is responsible for strategic local government across the region and consists of the Mayor of London and the London Assembly. The ceremonial county of Greater London, created on 1 April 1965, covers the 32 London boroughs but excludes the City of London.
?
I changed "consists of" to "comprises" in the first instance as it reads better.
Rob984 (talk) 19:21, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
Fine by me; thanks. jnestorius(talk) 09:58, 22 April 2016 (UTC)