Talk:Gruffydd ap Llywelyn

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How is the 11th century Gruffydd ap Llewelyn supposed to have "fought Mercia" when Mercia had ceased to have independent existence over a hundred years earlier? L.E./ 02:33, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The Mercia that is referred to is an Earldom of the kingdom of England. Condor.

Opening sentence[edit]

"Gruffydd ap Llywelyn (c. 1000–August 5, 1063) was the ruler of all Wales from 1055 until his death, one of very few able to make this boast."

Two pedantic observations:

  1. He was in fact the only ruler of all Wales from 1055 until his death, hence the only one able to make this boast.
  2. Most British monarchs since the 13th Century have been rulers of all Wales (as a geographical area, not a kingdom) until their deaths, unless I'm mistaken.

Of course I know what it's trying to say, but the wording is rather sloppy for the opening sentence of an article. Perhaps easier to remove the bit after the comma, rather than trying to make it strictly accurate. Mtford 04:41, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Marriage and issue[edit]

The fact that both Gruffydd's sons were from Ealdgyth is carried over from one unverified genealogy list to the next, without any contemporary source confirming it - or is there? It appears to be quite illogical for two reasons :

  1. These two princes gave battle in 1070 to claim their inheritance, when they would have been no more than 11 and 12 years old, too young even by Dark Age Celtic standards to lead an army.
  2. Gruffydd would have reached the age of 40+ (57 if we agree on a birth near 1000 as suggested here, and which I find also highly debatable) without any previous union? Of course, it is not impossible - Llewelyn the Last did not marry until his fifties' - but we know Gruffydd carried off his southern rival's wife in 1046, could she not be a concubine and mother of his sons? Old Welsh law recognized several forms of union, so I heard...

As for Gruffydd's birth date, something in the late 1010's appears more credible. c.f. his father's biography. Condor October 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 14:08, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

It appears that the writer of this page has confused the many Ediths associated with the Godwinson family - very easy to do, considering the number of them. This page links Gruffydd ap Llywelyn to Edith Swansneck (multiple spellings), the common law wife of Harold Godwinson (who was his partner for well over 15 years) rather than to Edith, daughter of the Earl of Mercia, who was likely married to Harold in a political marriage (sanctioned by the church) in early 1066. (It does not appear that she has her own wikipedia page.) I would correct the link, but I'm new to this and will rely on others to weigh in and clean up, if they see fit. (talk) 06:47, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation guide[edit]

Could somebody familiar with Welsh pronunciation and the IPA make a phonetic pronunciation guide for his name? I'm guessing most English speakers would have trouble pronouncing his name.--Witan 20:24, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Seconded. This would be useful. (talk) 06:00, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Weak references[edit]

Knowing the vast amount of relevant (and reasonnably recent) publications found in the university libraries of Wales (Cardiff, Averystwyth, Bangor...) and elsewhere, I am always surprised to see a wide-public history book from the early XXth century given as a prime reference (especially knowing the considerable progresses accomplished in History and Archaeology since), and better stil, something entitled "Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists Who Came to America Before 1700". (P.S. I am now located in France and cannot myself physically consult works that I once read; can anyone help?)

Hereford Castle[edit]

Hereford Castle was one of several castles in that area which were built by Normans (on behalf of Ralph the Timid) before 1066, another being Ewyas Harold - see this ref - "The first recorded motte in England was in 1051 when French castle builders were building one for the English king in Hereford." Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:48, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I was certainly puzzled by the mention of a Norman castle in England in 1055, until I followed up the link to Ralph the Timid and saw he had employed Normans. I wonder if it would be better to change "Norman" to "Norman built", to make it clearer why there was a Norman castle in England 11 years before the conquest? Wardog (talk) 17:03, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
The idea that there were no Normans in England before William's invasion is a bit of a myth. Edward the Confessor spent his early adult life - from the ages of about 13 to 38 - living in Normandy, as an exile from Cnut and his successors, and when he returned he brought with him many of his Norman friends and confidants, including Ralph. They in turn used Norman masons to build castles on the continental European model, in places like Herefordshire. The pre-conquest castles such as Hereford were built both by and for Normans - Ralph was a Norman lord, subject to Edward. So, I don't necessarily think the wording needs to be changed. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:59, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Rise to Power & Missing Setbacks[edit]

The Annales Cambriae B Text makes it quite clear that Hywel wasn't killed in the action at "Pencadeir" – in fact, he is recorded as victorious in the next year at "Pullduwath" and in the same year Gruffydd is recorded as being captured by the "gentiles" (i.e. viking pagans) of "Dulin" (Cynan's allies in Dublin?).

I'm not sure if there are other sources which contradict or give better context to these entries, but the page should certainly not simply pass over the source documents this history is based on. — LlywelynII 19:53, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Date of death[edit]

According to "Wales and the Britons 350-1064" by T. M. Charles Edwards (Oxford History of Wales, Volume 1 published 2013) The timeline in the index has the following entries under Gruffydd ap Llywelyn: "At Christmas 1063 just escaped when Harold and Tostig attempted to kill him at Christmas Feast, p566" and "Killed by Cynan ab Iago in the autumn of 1064 p567" He also states "ob. 1064" in brackets after his name on p332 'ob' indicating that was the year he died. I'm not sure if this is just the opinion of Charles Edwards or if this is the consensus amongst current historians so haven't changed it yet, however as this is the Oxford History of Wales series it would seem to suggest that it is (and one reason why the end date of the book is 1064 rather than 1063 when the next volume in the series (though written much earlier) starts in 1063 (in which R. R. Davies states that Gruffydd died in August 1063, however this volume was published in 1987 so could be out of date) — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 16:12, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Gruffydd did indeed die in 1063. Generally Welsh history at this time is lacking in detail and dating the events described in books (especially Welsh books) made at this time is troublesome so to speak. If you were to look at the Anglo-Saxon Chronical it gives a far better analogy of events in 1063 and is seen as very reliable, though it is biased and prone to mistakes. Most historians would agree that Gruffydd died on 5 August 1063. I believe it to be Charles Edwards own opinion, I assure you that Gruffydd died in 1063. Hope this answers your question..--JoshNEWK1998 (talk) 22:03, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
There doesn't seem to be a consensus for a death date. Both years are given by reliable sources. The article should probably reflect that. You guys might want to take a peek at Hudson The Destruction of Gruffudd ap Llywelyn, which actually explores the chronology of Gruffydd's death in detail, and is noted by Charles-Edwards in his aforesaid book (see here for Hudson's paper: [1]). The 1064 date comes from various sources. For example, the Worcester Chronicle dates the Rhuddlan raid in 1063 and the death in August 1064. Hudson notes that between these two events there is a notice of the turning of the Paschal cycle of 532 years (the ending of an old cycle in Easter 1064 and the consequent beginning of a new one). Hudson notes that the chronicle of Marianus Scotus dates the death of Gruffydd in the autumn after the beginning of the third great Paschal cycle (thus corresponding to August 1064). The Annals of Ulster also states that Gruffydd died in 1064. Hudson notes that the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle version D and E follow their 1063 death-date with an entry covering the revolt of Tostig in 1065 - seemingly showing that the chronicle has skipped an entire year. Hudson, however, interprets this as evidence that the death-date was meant to be recorded as 1064. If he's correct, it would mean that the chronicle has an entry for every year in the 1060s, and would also mean that the chronicle corresponds to the other sources noting Gruffydd's death. So basically the surviving evidence points to 1064, but a lazy reading of one the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle will give you 1063.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 01:02, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Descendancy from Hywel Dda[edit]

The article says "Although the true lineage of his grandfather Seisyll is obscure, he claimed to be the great-great-grandson of Hywel Dda." I think there are two things being confused here: Gruffydd ap Llywelyn was indeed the great-great-grandson of Hywel Dda, but he was so not through his father but through his mother, who was Angharad, daughter of Maredudd ab Owain. - Andre Engels (talk) 22:07, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

No doubt about it I totally agree. The page could be in a better state than it currently is.--JoshNEWK1998 (talk) 14:00, 16 December 2015 (UTC)