|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Gyro (food) article.|
|WikiProject Greece||(Rated C-class, Mid-importance)|
|WikiProject Food and drink||(Rated C-class, Mid-importance)|
Pronunciation and Chicago in gyros
I was born and raised in Chicago and gyros is pronounced more or less the exact same way as it is in Greek (yee-rose). I have never heard it pronounced the other ways until I went outside the Chicago area (mainly everywhere in Europe except for Greece) and the East Coast.
I think the pronunciation article should make a point of the way it is pronounced in Chicago.
And to the person who said that it was Detroit that put Gyros on the American map. I strongly disagree and it is correct to say that it was Chicago that really promoted its popularity in the States.
Clear content fork with doner kebab and shawarma. This is a regional, eastern-Med dish, not three different national dishes. AFAIK, the Greek name is the most common in English, so we should merge here. If another name turns out to be more common, we can always move later. — kwami (talk) 08:34, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose move/merge of Doner kebab and Shwarma articles into Gyros. Each has reliable sourcing and sufficient information to stand on its own. However the articles do have issues and could have overlapping/duplicative content removed. -- nsaum75 !Dígame¡ 06:05, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
- They're real content forks. To keep them as separate articles, they'd each need to be more than just shaved meat on bread. — kwami (talk) 08:33, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
- Strong support
agreeThey are definitely content forks. I proposed the merger a few years ago, but the national boosters on all sides shot it down. To make this happen, we'll need to get third-part support from participants in Wikiproject Food and drink. --Macrakis (talk) 16:01, 18 February 2011 (UTC) Clarification in view of comment below: I don't care what the name of the merged article is -- doner kebab would be fine with me. --Macrakis (talk) 15:45, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose They can and should be merged indeed but not in "Gyro". It may be the most common name in the US (not at all in the whole English speaking world), and the sources we have all over (including Greek sources) indicate us that Doner is the original name of it all. Merging them under "Gyro" would be quite unencyclopedical indeed. Note: Please don't come with any "google hits" or so, that's not the smartest way to write an encyclopedia either. --184.108.40.206 (talk) 01:58, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
- So that's agree to the merger, just oppose my proposed name. Those are really two different issues: the larger issue is the merger; we can always change the name later if it turns out not to be the best.
- As for Ghits, the problem is that "gyro" is almost entirely gyroscope, and "doner" almost entirely donations, so it's impractical to get results. —
- There are tricks for disambiguating Google counts, e.g. search for [gyro meat|sandwich] and [doner meat|sandwich], but the more serious problem is that Google hit counts are really not at all reliable, even for comparisons. A friend at Google tells me they're primarily for entertainment value.... --Macrakis (talk) 20:11, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
- Strongly oppose using gyro (food) as the name of the article. Leaving it at the current name is preferable. Jonathunder (talk) 18:48, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
- Comment from the doner article: "In the Philippines, döner kebab is referred to by its Arabic name, shawarma, ...". Several entries are like that. Obvious content fork. — kwami (talk) 00:56, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
- Comment Aglaia Kremezi, probably the best-known writer on Greek food, says: "Greeks, in their most successful food marketing coup ever, managed to hijack the Turkish and Middle Eastern döner, making it known the world over as gyro, a brilliant made-up word (so far as I know) for that type of roasted meat." (Aglaia Kremezi and Anissa Helou, "What's in a Dish's Name", Food and Language, Proceedings of the Oxford Symposium on Food and Cookery, 2009, ISBN 190301879X). --Macrakis (talk) 23:53, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
- "so far as I know"... such a disclaimer should ring all warning bells (any written information is "so far the author knows" but if it's deliberately stated it is an explicit admission that the author is quite unsure). Also "food marketing coup" and "hijack" is utterly NPOV. Also consider that they didn't just "hijack" it but seem to have made it deliberately off-limits for Muslims. So it is really the antithesis of döner instead of a copy. Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 03:46, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
- Strongly oppose combining. The methods are similar, but the dishes are VERY different. This would be like putting all oven roasted mean in one category. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 17:55, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
- Could you be specific about what systematic differences you see between the dishes? Yes, there are differences, like yoghurt-based versus tahini-based sauces, or sliced meat versus ground meat (which I would consider ersatz, but that's not NPOV), or lamb vs. pork vs. chicken; but there are even bigger differences among variants of pizza (tomatoes or not? baked on the oven floor or in a pan? thin or thick? various toppings...) or variants of moussaka (bechamel, custard, or no sauce? meat or meatless? eggplant or zucchini?).
- Though there are differences, they are not closely correlated with the names. After all, the Greek name used to be ντονέρ (doner) until the term γύρος was invented (see Kremezi above, but also Babiniotis and Andriotis dictionaries), perhaps for similar reasons as "Greek coffee". --Macrakis (talk) 19:08, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
- Strong oppose While very similar, they are not identical. I would support merging the redundant variations sections, but not the articles. Reywas92Talk 22:35, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
- Of course there are lots of variants of gyros/doner kebab/shwarma. The recipes vary by country, they even vary from one restaurant to another. But that is not an argument for keeping three separate articles. Should we also have three separate articles on, say, shoestring fries and steak fries rather than one on French fries which discusses the variants? (At least there, there's a consistent difference you can predict from the name.) If there is such a clear difference, could you please explain what it is? As it is, in the current Wikipedia articles, as Kwami says, we have curious phrases like 'in country X, shwarma is called doner'. --Macrakis (talk) 23:11, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
- Support The description minced meat mixed with spices, grilled on a stick, shaved off and served on or in flatbread with vegetables and other condiment covers the lot. I understand that there may be nationalist reasons for splitting hairs, but as Macrakis has well pointed out the variations seem to be more to do with the chef's interpretation rather than any intrinsic character of each dish. I've eaten doner kebab in Europe, North America and Australia, and all they had in common was the above. I've had doner in Cyprus that more closely resembled the gyro of Canada than it did the doner of London, but shawarma in California that was almost a dead ringer. The dishes are not "very different"; having four separate articles is creating confusion and actually prevents any consideration about what are, in actuality, merely regional variants. Pyrope 02:14, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose - I've eaten "gyros" in the United States (also in Greece), "shawarma" in the United States, and "doner kebab" in the United Kingdom and Ireland, and I will testify that the foods identified by these three names are different. There's an eatery near my house (operated by people from Palestine or Syria, I think) that has both "gyros" and "shawarma" on its menu, and the two items are very different. --Orlady (talk) 03:10, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
- I have eaten gyros in the US and in Greece, shawarma in the US, France, and Syria, and doner kebab in the US, Germany, and Turkey, and there are lots of variations, no question. But there is more difference between one gyros stand in New York that I've eaten at and another one in Boston than there is between the first one and the doner kebab I've had in Istanbul! Within the US, the name seems to vary regionally, so if the dish was introduced by Arab or Israeli vendors first to an area, it tends to be called shawarma, if introduced by Greeks, gyros, etc. even though the actual foods are the same. --Macrakis (talk) 04:08, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
- Support. These are three names for what is essentially the same dish. (I'm not sure Gyros is the best article name and/or merge target, but that is a separate discussion from whether the three should be merged.) --Lambiam 16:50, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
- Comment The OED defines a shawarma as a doner kebab. It's even the same word as the gyro: "shawarma ‹ Syrian colloquial Arabic šāwirma, šawirma ‹ Turkish çevirme sliced meat roasted on a spit or skewer ‹ çevirmek to turn, rotate." Compare "gyro ad. mod.Gr. γῦρο-ς, lit. ‘turning’ (cf. gyro-), from the meat's being cooked on a spit." and doner kebab also döner kebab a. Turkish döner kebap, f. döner ppl. a. turning, rotating (f. dönmek to turn) + kebap kebab.]
- Support All those terms: "gyros" "shawarma" "doner kebab" and "al pastor" describe actually the same kind of fast food. You slice the meat and put it on rotating vertical spit-grill thing (1 2 3 and 4). It is true, variations exist, different types of meat, spices, types of bread and styles of serving, etc... Those could coexist in the same article though as variations. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 21:13, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
- I think not just that we can fit the variations under one article, but that the variations do not correspond to the various names: while one city may distinguish a gyro from a shawarma, another city may not, and in a third they may have the opposite meanings. — kwami (talk) 07:33, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
- I liked the etymological analysis. There might be some unambiguity and naming confusion or even name clash for a sliced meat roasted on a spit or skewer. We need to describe what is general here, currently it is not clear where such content goes and it is a pity. Names could differ between location and location, see Turkish coffee, for instance. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 18:17, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
- Support in accordance with my comment in the renaming discussion below. Andrew Dalby 18:33, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose (ever so strongly) Metaphysical arguments about what food is really what other food (should hot dog be not merged with sausage per the support arguments here?) are pointless and endless. What matters are the published sources, and plenty enough treat of these foods as culturally distinct even if they were physically identical. Food is culture, not physics. μηδείς (talk) 17:56, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
- I see no metaphysical arguments here. Are you taking the philosophically questionable position that if there are three names for a thing, they are three different things? Should we also have separate articles for Greek coffee, Bosnian coffee, and Turkish coffee?
- You say there are "published sources" -- could you please point us to reliable sources supporting your position? So far, we have Aglaia Kremezi, in an article published in the Oxford Symposium, saying quite explicitly that gyros was just a name invented for doner kebab, which in fact used to be called ντονέρ (doner) in Greece. Are there articles published in Gastronomica or the Oxford Symposium proceedings or other serious food-related publications? Or are you just talking about blogs and the like? --Macrakis (talk) 19:47, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
- Comment From the doner kebab article: 'In Australian shops r stalls, greek style kebabs are called souvlaki in Victoria or "yeeros", or "yiros" in South Australia and New South Wales. "Doner kebab" is the Turkish name.' This was just changed from 'In Australian shops or stalls run by Greeks, kebabs are usually called souvlaki in Victoria or gyros, spelled phonetically as "yeeros", or "yiros" in South Australia.'
- The souvlaki article says that a gyro is a 'kebab usually made of pork or chicken' (that is, essentially a synonym for souvlaki and shishkebab), completely at odds with this article. — kwami (talk) 01:18, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
- Kwami, I think you're reading too much into the words. Both 'kebab' in English and 'souvlaki' in Greek have come to have different meanings in different places: referring to chunks of meat (shish) or slices off a vertical spit (doner) and sometimes referring just to the form of the sandwich (pita wrapped around meat, vegetables, and sauce) rather than to the kind of meat. For all I know, there may be places where gyros refers to the chunk version by now. It certainly refers to an ersatz ground-meat-patty-cooked-on-a-griddle version in some places. Again, all this is a reason for merging. --Macrakis (talk) 12:54, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
- FYI, shish is a native Turkish word for "spit" or "skewer", not a Farsi word, and not a word meaning chunks of meat. μηδείς (talk) 17:47, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, but why is that relevant to this discussion? We all agree that shish kebab = şiş kebabı is not the same thing as doner kebab = döner kebabı. --Macrakis (talk) 18:25, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
- But if we all agree to that, the argument for not separating gyros and döner is a hair's breadth from being invalidated. See my comment below - before the 1820s there was only şiş kebabı, and the "Greek" and "Turkish" versions seem to have gone separate ways a mere 20 or 30 years after some Turkish guy turned the spit 90 degrees. Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 03:59, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, but why is that relevant to this discussion? We all agree that shish kebab = şiş kebabı is not the same thing as doner kebab = döner kebabı. --Macrakis (talk) 18:25, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
- FYI, shish is a native Turkish word for "spit" or "skewer", not a Farsi word, and not a word meaning chunks of meat. μηδείς (talk) 17:47, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
- Comment There were comments from number of angles, above and bellow that it would be logical to merge into Doner. I would also support such merge, per sources I have reviewed. This is mainly a technical note, since in case of merge redirection links from original names would be preserved. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 11:03, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
- Proposal Guys, the debate is still warm and on a stalemate. As a pro-merge user under the Döner name, like many of you are, I propose we follow a logical roadmap: Let's first merge Shawarma and Döner which are the closest versions under Döner, as both are -mostly- made made of (NON MINCED) lamb meat. Then we'll have a stronger article to merge with the Greek version, who differs by using other kinds of meat, often minced, but is still, as far as I am concerned, the same thing all over. Pennies for your thoughts... --18.104.22.168 (talk) 00:19, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
- Doner and shawarma are often nowadays made with chicken, not lamb, at least in Turkey and Syria (where I've been recently). Gyros may be made with sliced meat (the high-quality artisanal version) or with minced meat (the cheap industrial version). I don't see that merging shawarma and doner makes sense without also including gyros, especially since every reliable source that anyone has contributed (see below) supports the three-way merge. Moreover, gyros was called 'doner' (ντονέρ) in Greece as well until the 1970's. --Macrakis (talk) 01:08, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose Al Pastor Merge Al Pastor is a Mexican dish that has a completely different marinade and the flavor is not even remotely close to the middle eastern and European dishes discussed on this page. The only real similarity is that it is cooked using a similar method, the spices are different, the type of meet used is also different, how it is served is also different. I am undecided on the Doner, shawarma, and gyro merge, but they certainly shouldn't be merged with al pastor.--MATThematical (talk) 00:07, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
- Comment I have eaten kebabs, shawarmas, and gyros across Europe, Turkey, the United States, and in Central America, and regard them as essentially the same food. Styles of presentation vary within individual countries, and between countries, but I cannot identify any overarching, consistent differences that would make it possible to identify them by different names. I came to the articles about kebabs, shawarmas, and gyros to discover what distinguished one from another, and I have not found anything to persuade me that they are essentially distinguishable. However, any proposal to merge the three articles should be advanced cautiously, with people not thinking only of their local experience (original research). Perhaps knowledgeable food experts can identify distinctions that I cannot. — O'Dea (talk) 08:22, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose The whole discussion seems to center on where and under which name what dish is sold today and seems to totally disregard history. I'm under the impression the names for the different dishes with same cooking style got mixed up while they spread over the world as the fast food we know today. But as far as I know, "Döner Kebap" was historically only prepared with mutton or lamb meat, while "Gyros" has always been made from pork. And I clearly do not consider mutton/lamb and pork to be the same thing. It is only the cooking method that is the same. I think even the sandwich style serving of today isn't how it was eaten historically. I think each lemma should describe the historical food, one should contain a section an nowaday's fast food usage around the world, while the others contain a section that only provides a reference to that. That of course whould need some research. Skibbi (talk) 20:19, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
- Support merger despite the above objections, on the basis that these historical/ingredient difference aren't usefully discussed across articles with different names. Unless a hard distinction exists worldwide between these brands, they are overlapping synonyms, warranting merger by policy.
- Why do I think that these are synonymous terms? Because, if presented with one of these concoctions, I'd never be confident in classifying one as a "Gyro" but not a "Doner" - would anyone? --Wragge (talk) 19:09, 8 August 2011 (UTC).
- Oppose They are different enough to warrant separate articles and there is plenty of info here to keep Gyros separate. 22.214.171.124 (talk) 05:31, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- Support All three articles are the same list, am I the only one that notices that? For instance, for Australia, the turkish kebab in pita is mentioned in all three articles. The information itself is quite small for all of these articles. Regional differences are already discussed for each country. If I look up kebab in an Encylcopaedia, I should be able to see what they are like in Nigeria even though they're called Shawarmas. The article could simply be "Shaved Meat" with disambiguation links for deli meats and so on. Alternatively, all 3 articles could be greatly reduced, and a fourth 'list' article could be created. Gmip (talk) 01:46, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
Since decisions on WP are decided by WP:RS, not a vote, let's simplify things:
- Sources for merging
- terms refer to essentially the same thing, or do not consistently distinguish varieties
- The two most popular ways meat of all types is prepared are grilling (in shawarma, gyros or kebab) ... Lamb is most popular meat in the Mediterranean region ... One of the most popular ways to serve lamb is something called shawarma in Lebanon, Syria, and Israel; gyros in Greece; and doner kebab in Turkey... Lamb meat is sliced ... 
- Simply the best fast food invented, the shawarma is the stable snack fast food of the Middle East. While you'll hear it called many other things in many other countries - Gyros in Greece, döner kebab in Turkey, it's only known as shawarma in Dubai... [Comment: It is sold by Syrian immigrants in San Francisco as shawarma (personal observation). Also, the writers of the Lonely Planet series (source of this wild "Dubai" assertion) should not be considered as international authorities on food (personal observation). — O'Dea (talk) 08:36, 16 June 2011 (UTC)]
- The Turkish vendors call it doner kebab, while others Lebanese, Syrian and Arab call it shawarma. No matter; shawarma and doner are virtually the same thing, and they've become the iconic cheap eats of Berlin... This fast food.... maybe based on Middle Eastern kebab and Greek gyros... 
- Another common type of kabob is the shawarma of the Arab world, döner to the Turks, and gyro to us, which involves threading slices of marinated lamb onto vertical spit...
- Greeks, in their most successful food marketing coup ever, managed to hijack the Turkish and Middle Eastern döner, making it known the world over as gyro, a brilliant made-up word (so far as I know) for that type of roasted meat.
- Sources for status quo
- terms do fairly consistently distinguish different varieties
- References for above
- Carol Helstosky (30 March 2009). Food Culture in the Mediterranean. Greenwood Publishing Group. p. 43. ISBN 9780313346262. Retrieved 3 March 2011.
- Terry Carter; Lara Dunston (15 September 2006). Dubai. Lonely Planet. p. 78. ISBN 9781740598408. Retrieved 3 March 2011.
- Holly Hughes (17 April 2009). Frommer's 500 Places for Food & Wine Lovers. Frommer's. p. 34. ISBN 9780470287750. Retrieved 3 March 2011.
- Ghillie Başan (20 February 2007). MIDDLE EASTERN KITCHEN. Hippocrene Books. p. 70. ISBN 9780781811903. Retrieved 5 March 2011.
- Aglaia Kremezi and Anissa Helou, "What's in a Dish's Name", Food and Language, Proceedings of the Oxford Symposium on Food and Cookery, 2009, ISBN 190301879X
- Comment: Any source that claims gyros is exclusively lamb/mutton disqualifies itself as "reliable" automatically. As per el:Γύρος:
"Γύρος ονομάζεται το έδεσμα που αποτελείται από κομμάτια χοιρινού κρέατος από διάφορα μέρη του ζώου." (emphasis added; see also Cambridge World History of Food source given there. Also note el:Ντόνερ κεμπάπ.)
- Overall Wikipedia practice is inconsistent: compare Mămăligă/Polenta/Cornbread/Kačamak/Pap (food)/Ugali or Çoban salatası/Shopska salad/Greek salad/Serbian salad (not merged) with Potato pancake (including latkes etc), Pilaf (including piláfi, pulao etc). Considering Reibekuchen and Boxty however, the usual practice seems to be to WP:SPINOFF.
- Therefore, I propose to postpone decision until content has been straightened out. I.e. cleanup, remove duplicate content except from intro, and see what is left.
- If this is sufficient (and consider also de:Döner, de:Gyros, de:Schawarma, which is telling in and by itself given that de: is hyper-deletionist and will never allow separate articles if they can be merged) the articles can be kept separate, but perhaps an overarching article of meat-grilled-on-rotating-spit dishes can be made (cf. Al pastor, and also including horizontal-spit dishes. This would presumably be either Kebab or List of kebabs.)
- If there is not enough unique content for each even after evaluating the possibilities of translating from other Wikipedias, then, and only then, a merger is clearly warranted.
- In any case, the original merge argument in clear violation of WP:CSB. "Modern-style" döner kebap is a Turco-German dish that is hard to get in English-speaking countries, where the term "döner" (judging from my personal experience) basically means "low-quality gyros". The underlying reason is that "UK döner" is usually Greek Cypriot - i.e. it is gyros by another name - due to the lack of a significant number of Turkish immigrants in the UK (for reasons that ultimately go back to Lord Byron). But in any country with a substantial proportion of Turkish and Greek (and possibly Arab) immigrant populations, there is a strong distinction between the two/three, with gyros being haraam (and possibly deliberately so).
- The case of chow mein (still close to its original form) vs chop suey (internationally famous in a thoroughly Americanized form) is the only equivalent I can think of. Fry's Turkish Delight and Turkish delight may be another case however, with the English sweet based on but quite different from the original lokum. But perhaps more significant is the fact that pizza is kept separate from sfinciuni.
- The underlying problem is that 200 years ago there was only şiş kebap. The common history of yaprak döner and "Greek döner" = gyros is extremely short, they must have been well distinct by the mid-18th century already (i.e. only a few decades after yaprak döner was invented) as "Greek döner" apparently was "porkified" soon after Greek independence. By the 1970s, the two only shared the vertical-spit method of preparation in most of Continental Europe (even the bread that comes with them was different). With "Berlin döner" appearing in the 1970s and spreading all over Central Europe and back to Turkey (because European tourists actually complained about the "bad" - i.e. yaprak - döner in Antalya etc) 10 years ago.
- Ultimately, thus, splitting is preferrably to merging, as the dishes have separated for good - not yet globally, but in the "core area" and with an obvious overall trend. That they were one and the same in the 1820s (and none of them existed in the 1810s) is not a valid point. Otherwise, why not merge Blancmange and Tavuk göğsü and Panna cotta and Bavarian cream? These, too, are "only variants of the same theme"; and at least the difference between the original blancmange and tavuk göğsü is much less than that between döner kebabı and γύρος (as natives of Turkey and Greece understand the terms).
- In summary, the Anglosphere is really the only part of the world where "gyros" and "döner" are synomymous. "Döner" and "shawarma" are a more complicated case, but they tend to be separated too these days whereever substantial Turkish and Arabic populations coexist. Ironically, if you are in Central Europe and want an "original" döner, you have to get a shawarma and hope it's lamb (it usually isn't). Even in Turkey "Berlin döner" is starting to replace yaprak döner, because the former is more suitable for mass production.
- As regards the original debate, I would favor keep separate if RS exist for the history of all variants because for a dish that was only invented in the 1820s the shared history is apparently very short and the historical development of all three is interesting in and by itself. As a Central European who can choose between three quite distinct and stereotyped horizontal-spit meat dishes offered by Greek, Turkish and Arabic takeaways located within 5 minutes walking distance or less, I cannot see any reason at all for merging, considering we have List of kebabs and Kebab as common-denominator articles already.
- tl;dr: "Greek döner" = gyros should be made from pork, and this is apparently an intentional post-1832 snipe at the Ottomans; shawarma is the most plesiomorphic; "Turkish döner" can be "traditional" (not consistently distinct from shawarma), but if not ("Berlin döner") it is actually the most distinct and youngest of the three, apparently unknown before 1971.
- (The Oxford Companion to Food, while quite mixing it up, offers a clue to the origin of the confusion: as it seems, the Cypriots are really the guilty party in the confusion of terms. Time Out Athens also explicitly points out that what is sold as "gyros" in the Anglosphere would be unrecognizable as such in Greece.) Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 03:40, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
- Dysmorodrepanis, as an addition to your comments, can you explain me, how the modern "Döner" is a Turco-German dish? Maybe the one you eat in the "Anglosphere" or anywhere in the west, but nothing as such here in Turkey, where we have, be sure a lot of different "modern" takes and variations on the döner theme, like the "Kaşarlı dürüm" etc. (see the article in the "serving" section and the associated references of the article in general). Are these not "modern", now?. Also, out of my ignorance, what is a "Berlin Döner", exactly? If you mean a döner in a sandwich eaten as fast-food, it is clearly not imported from Germany. We all ate it in the 50's, even before, as far as our family memory goes. If you mean a more special variety with sauces etc. that contains more pre-frozen minced meat than yaprak, as "modern döner", then, that version is quasi inexistant in Turkey, maybe in Alanya, Antalya or places with a high german population, but definitely not in any major metropolis. Anyways, the version you talk about as "modern" is clearly not the version the döner article is talking about, as far as I can see.
- Also, any Turk having been to Europe, complaining about the "bad quality" or even "uneatable" döner over there, would never eat that here in Turkey neither. You also have to support another argument of yours with proper documentation, from local sources if possible, where you claim that "Even in Turkey "Berlin döner" is starting to replace yaprak döner, because the former is more suitable for mass production. " Well... No! (Where did you ever get this?) Here, an overwhelming majority of places impale their meat from the morning on, in front of everyone, to finish the sales by late afternoon. The version you talk about is just not to the taste of Turkey, I can attest of this. Why make döner out of frozen minced meat and why in the world put ANY sauce in it? It's very unnerving for me to read you, as you sound kind of a neo-colonialist defending anything anything originating from the west as "better" or "more popular" and "will ultimately conquer"... No, no and NO!. (I know it's not out of bad faith, though, it is just your lack of information on the subject and your sources being exclusively western for something that is not).
- You also lack another fact, the one pertaining to the history of the döner. 200 years ago, there was NOT only the şiş kebabı, (where did you get this, yet again?), and of course, şiş kebabı is not at all the ancestor of döner kebabı.... Most probably, cağ kebabı is... Have you at least read the döner article in English, or perused ANY of the sources in question? There are even pictures from the 1800's going around...
- Well, I've seen it. Tried to get actual yaprak döner for years in the Rhine area, it's almost impossibly hard. There was one shop in Bonn but it only did it on special days and it closed eventually. It's easier in Berlin, but there too you can commonly see the large pre-formed spits which consist of some slices (for structure) wrapped in minced meat. Might be there are some statistics on it. Certainly, the manufacturers offer yaprak döner as well as the mainly-minced version, so it should be possible to get figures of how much is sold of which. When I'm in Cologne and want sliced-meat döner, I have to grab a tavuk döner because I have not yet found any yaprak döner there (and it's Germany's fourth-largest city after all, with the second-largest (IIRC) Turkish immigrant population).
- (NB: according to the German food laws, you can sell it as "döner" if there is 60% minced meat or less. So, some slices always have to be in there. But a bunch of slices wrapped in mince is not the same thing as a stack of slices. Chunky puree does not a yaprak döner make.) 13:00, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
None of the above sources support the merge for Al Pastor (or even talk about it). I suggest that we no longer include al pastor in the proposed merge, and just focus the merge proposal on doner, Schawarma, and gyro. The only similarity between al pastor and the others is the method of cooking. It would almost be equivalent to adding a rotisserie style chicken to the merge--MATThematical (talk) 16:22, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
I see no logical reason why shawarmas and gyros should be in the same article. They are two different foods. I live in a city with a lot of shawarma places and a lot of gyro places, they're not the same thing. Some sandwich shops sell the two items separately. Brighamhb
Gyros vs. Gyro
This is kind of like saying "Penis" should be moved to "Peni" because "use singular per MOS." I was not aware that "gyros" was now thought to be the plural form, for the majority of English speakers. --JBrown23 (talk) 21:40, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
In Greece the meat used for gyros is mostly pork (in the last decade chicken is also used); I have never come across beef or lamb gyros. Also, the meat is not minced (like in doner kebad or shawarma f.ex.). 126.96.36.199 (talk) 10:41, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
- I would like to add a confirmation on this. I was speaking with the propietor of a local gyro shop in my town (#1 Gyro, Missoula, MT, est. 1976). She hails from northern Greece (Sparta area) and told me that she has only seen pork used. I trust her as a reliable source. — TwoToad (talk) 18:39, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
- Who minces doner kebab? — kwami (talk) 13:29, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
- Almost everyone in Central Europe, most people in Continental Europe and an increasing number of people in Turkey. Cheaper and allows for industrial-style production. Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 04:04, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
- Re "the meat is not minced (like in doner kebad or shawarma". As has been discussed before, whether doner/gyros/shwarma is made of sliced or minced meat is not predictable from the name. --Macrakis (talk) 13:55, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
- It is usually highly predictable for gyro meat in Greece and Continental Europe. As per burden of proof, you'd need to supply evidence that minced and non-pork gyro meat is used to a significant extent in Greece. And from my personal experience, in many places where Turks sell mincemeat döner, competing Arab sellers will use sliced meat for shwarma. The names of the "bastardized" versions sold in the Anglosphere are completely nondescript as regards type of meat, preparation of meat, spice mix and bread used to serve, but this is insignificant for the way these dishes are prepared in their "native range". Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 12:46, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
I would consider my grandfather as a reliable source as any street corner merchant, perhaps more so, the recipe has always been lamb and not Turkish strips but diced meat, this article has been hijacked by well meaning but ill informed folks as per usual by Wikipedia standards, however I will give some leniency as I've also heard this called "souvlaki pita". While Pork has become common, I have found every other meat in Greece including chicken, beef, goat and lamb. Perhaps pork has become the differentiation more so for religious reasons to spite Muslims? I don't know, but given what goes on I wouldn't hesitate some credibility in my personal thoughts. I have also never heard of this "theft" of Donner kebabs from anyone other than those trying to cause unnecessary divisiveness. The meals are completely different, although, given the link of the countries histories due to occupation, I could see how this could be perceived to be the case to be otherwise, but at the same time, I also see the derision of all manner of history between the two nations and can see how this could be taken as just another edit war between people of the two backgrounds. My grandfathers background was from the 1st generation of Greek diaspora from Asia minor, so I take his practices as traditional as they come for someone who lived in this region --188.8.131.52 (talk) 21:38, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
This is due to the American conception of gyros, which is quite different from what the Greeks themselves are used to. It applies to more than just the meat. 184.108.40.206 (talk) 22:36, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
I'm kind of confused
This article repeatedly reinforces that this is a Greek dish that comes from Greece. Except of course in the origins section, in which we learn that "gyro" is just the Greek word for the identical, older, original Turkish dish. What's going on here? 15:53, 16 February 2013 (UTC)~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk)
- To be more constrictive: 3.1 Greece and Cyprus should be moved to the Greece section of Doner Kebap, and everything else on this page should be merged with Doner Kebap. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 15:59, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
There are also sources out there that say that the Gyro was invented in the United States in a greek community in New York.
- In any case, shawarma is not the same thing (as some people have claimed above). There is a Lebanese restaurant near where I live and both gyros and shawarma are on the menu; I can attest they are two completely different meats in texture, taste, composition etc. 22.214.171.124 (talk) 20:04, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
- Donner kebab, shawarma and gyros are not the same thing either, neither are souvlaki pita. In any case this article is a mess of Middle Eastern influence over a separate meal, I am Greek Australian, so disconnected from this all anyway. But what is generally sold in a taverna or shop is what is known as souvlaki which is souvlaki pita, or gyros which is also souvlaki pita and is generally in Australia sold as lamb. In Australian vernacular often referred to as the 3am lamb sandwich.
- As my grandfather cooked it it was always "shish" over coals, and sometimes with vegetables and meet on a "shish" stick, referred to as souvlaki. In all of my life as a person of Greek descent I've have however never been served strip meat as in kebab in a Greek household, in fact from personal experience strip meat is frowned upon by comparison to "shish."
- Furthermore, the ingredients are different and the bread is different, correctly, Greek pita is a single layer pita bread and not pocket as in kebab bread, traditional souvlaki is served with tzatziki where a kebab may be served with generally anything, salads generally include lettuce, tomato, onion and generally nothing else. Of course what is sold at a corner store is generally made to suit the customer and is not representative of the meal as served traditionally --Orestes1984 (talk) 19:28, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
- *Strongly oppose this article is a mess and has been hijacked by people who do not either know, or understand what gyros is, or are Arabic and have edited in good faith but have gotten it wrong. I've just sanitised the Australian section of this article although more work needs to be done. I live in an area where donner kebabs and gyros can be bought, I am also of Greek descent and cook the meal myself, they are not the same meal. Please read over the existing comments on this talk page from 2011 and the history of souvlaki here before you open up any further discussion. They are not the same thing --Orestes1984 (talk) 20:48, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
Nope. It originates from Ancient Greece, where they consumed it with pork, flattened bread called plakountas, onion and a mixture of yoghurt and garlic. Sound familiar? Andreas George Skinner (talk) 16:27, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
- Interesting theory. Do you have any evidence for it? (Just to be clear, we are talking about γύρος in the narrow sense, right? Not σουβλάκι in a sandwich.) Do you have any evidence of the ancient Greeks making τζατζίκι or even yogurt? Do you have any evidence of vertical spits? Do you have any evidence that plakountas was used to make sandwiches? And what was this dish called in Ancient Greek? As far as I can tell, the name γύρος was invented in the 1970s to replace the previous name, ντονέρ (κεμπάπ). Was there an earlier Greek name for it? I would be very interested to see reliable sources on all these issues. I would be surprised if there were attestations of either γύρος or ντονέρ in Greece before 1920, or of döner kebab anywhere in the world before 1700, but if you can find them, great! Thanks, --Macrakis (talk) 18:57, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
- I have nothing to contribute to the previous poster's claims and the sources in the article already support a 19th century origin (in what is now modern Turkey) for the modern gyros; however, grilled meat on a skewer is already getting a bit specific, and so I think the article would be remiss if it did not even mention the ancient background and traditions of 'grilled meat on a stick' dishes in the area. Piledhighandeep (talk) 18:31, 11 December 2014 (UTC)