Talk:Hallstatt culture

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What does map mean?[edit]

The map apparently shows different shadings for the Halstatt, La Tene, and historic Celtic areas. But this is not clearly explained and which is which remains unclear. Can someone please add a key? BTW, this article is refreshingly superior in writing and scholarly tone. That's in contrast with the chaos of the "Celts" article.Ftjrwrites (talk) 21:44, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Preceding culture[edit]

Article succinctly mentions La Tene as perceived successor to Halstatt, but does not discuss the important issue of origins. Someone with access to appropriate source material should add a balanced entry on this matter, even if it's just a sentence or two. I seem to recall that the consensus is for the Corded Ware Culture, but there are complications with this identification.Ftjrwrites (talk) 21:47, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Illyria and the The Illyrians, bearers of the Hallstatt culture[edit]

Illyria,The Illyrians, bearers of the Hallstatt cultureThe Illyrians, bearers of the Hallstatt culture.Megistias (talk) 16:36, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

it appears the culture reaches into Slovenia (Lower Styria). I was not aware of this. The "Illyrians" are probably supposed to be the bearers of the eastern zone, while the Celts were the bearers of the western zone (of course it wouldn't have been as clear-cut as that in reality). --dab (𒁳) 14:05, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Many sources say "Encyclopedic Dictionary of Archaeology by Barbara Ann Kipfer,ISBN-10: 0306461587,2000, Page 251,"... Illyria extended from the Danube River southward to the Adriatic Sea and from there eastward to the Sar Mountains. The Illyrians, descendants of the hallstatt culture, were divided into tribes, each a self-governing community with a council of elders and a chosen leader. The last ...""
  • descendants of the hallstatt culture, does this mean the hallstatt culture map needs be expanded even more then to Slovenia? This means more of them? Megistias (talk) 19:44, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

This "Illyrians" thing rests too much on soundbites out of context. "descendants of the Hallstatt culture" is a loose phrasing. We must be clear that "Illyria" is not an archaeological term, but a toponym taken from Greco-Roman ethnography. As ist "Celts" of course, but unlike "Celtic", "Illyrian" isn't a well-defined linguistic term. It is meaningful to ask "does the western Hallstatt culture correspond to Celtic speakers?" It is not meaningful to ask "does the eastern Hallstatt culture correspond to Illyrian speakers?" because we wouldn't know how to identify an "Illyrian speaker" if we met one. Illyrians are simply those peoples which are called "Illyrian" by ancient authors.

I am working on a Hallstatt map, btw. Yes, the green blob in the overview map will need to be expanded a little bit so as to include the upper Drava. dab (𒁳) 10:56, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

ok, I've uploaded the map as it stands at present. I intend to refine it further. dab (𒁳) 11:06, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
The Hallstatt culture map will simply show the regions in which Hallstatt sites have been identified, yes? Will it follow contours of a relief map, not showing Hallstatt culture at the highest elevations? --Wetman (talk) 11:13, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
this is asking a bit much. The extent of the Hallstatt culture is informed by the distribution of individual finds. It should properly be a scatter plot of find locations. Good luck compiling that. Sure, high elevations probably won't have been "part" of the "culture", but if we start to leave holes in the distribution map for this, we'd also have to leave out the lakes etc., and we'll be making a stronger claim than warranted for the areas that remain coloured. Instead, we just need to base the map on published maps, and be aware of the intended implications, which is not that every pixel painted red is the location of an actual archaeological find. dab (𒁳) 16:04, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I just found this useful map, and will try to take it into account. dab (𒁳) 16:08, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

You're right: that was asking a bit much.--Wetman (talk) 18:14, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Illyrians, ie the loosely related peoples of what became Illyria, were only partly influenced by the Hallstatt culture. This was limited to the regions of Pannonia, where the Illyrioid peoples, known as Pannonians were largely Celticized, seen by toponymic evidence as well as the presence of later (La Tenne) type finds north of the Sava. However, little to no Hallstatt influence existed in the majority of Illyrian territory Hxseek (talk) 05:57, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Welsh?[edit]

The phrase "(note 'halen' is salt in Modern Welsh)" seems to be a massive non-sequitur here. It may have some relevance, and I'm not qualified to judge (I came here on a wiki-clicki-trip) but surely it should go in a separate section if it should even be here at all? This is the edit that added the line. --RpehTCE 01:30, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

yes. The idea that hall is from a Celtic word for "salt" was brought up in scholarship around 1800 or so, and had been soundly debunked by the 1830s. I don't know why it would be brought up out of the blue 200 years later. --dab (𒁳) 10:01, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

A little bit astonished. When I visited the Hallstatt salt mine with its large halls, the guide emphasized the prominent role of salt mines and salt trade in the core area of the Hallstatt culture. (The French article tells the same.) The guide also told us, that the modern term 'hall' (German: Halle) derived from the antique (Celtic?) term for salt. Really wrong? Henrig (talk) 20:02, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

"Kossack 1959"[edit]

Since it's not in the bibliography, "Kossack (1959)" needs some identifying.--Wetman (talk) 19:41, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Maps: Slovenia[edit]

Map of distribution of the Hallstatt culture
Overview of the Hallstatt and La Tène

I've currently outcommented the maps as they don't show correctly the extent of the Hallstatt culture. The first map almost doesn't show the extent of the artifacts found in Slovenia. The second map also shows incorrectly the extent of the Hallstatt in Slovenia. As has been stated in the article (reference provided), numerous Hallstatt situlas were found in Novo Mesto, to the south of the Sava River.[1] I don't know for other countries, but the error I spotted casts doubt on these two maps in general. --Eleassar my talk 09:15, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

I see. Didn't know that, but I think the article deserves to have a map in there. Looks much better. Nothing is 100% correct and perfect in Wikipedia, as you know. Romania (Transylvania) specifically) is missing too and I wouldn't remove the map for that. Someone will probably work on fix it eventually. You should check with the author. The whole idea of WP is incrementalism. Best regards.--Codrin.B (talk) 15:39, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

These maps are referenced. I have no opinion on the accuracy of the references used, but you have no business commenting them out. If you have better references, present them. --dab (𒁳) 16:10, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Per WP:NPOV: "Avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts. If different reliable sources make conflicting assertions about a matter, treat these assertions as opinions rather than facts, and do not present them as direct statements."
Also, "opinions should not be stated in Wikipedia's voice. Rather, they should be attributed in the text to particular sources, or where justified, described as "widespread views", etc."
The sources that I've presented are reliable and make assertions conflicting with those that have been used for the maps. Per the cited policy, this means that the maps should be replaced with others or the caption should be corrected so that the source is cited in the text. --Eleassar my talk 17:36, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
I would put the maps back in but with a comment or footnote indicating where they are inaccurate, rather than have nothing. Most readers are not going to look at the detail anyway, but it gives a general idea of the spread of this culture (which is hard to be precise about anyway at this distance). And then perhaps, Eleassar, you could work with the author on improving the maps? --Bermicourt (talk) 09:27, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
The idea of putting them back with a comment is ok. I've just removed them temporarily till a solution is agreed upon. I'll try to find some map of the extent of the Hallstatt culture in the local library. --Eleassar my talk 12:03, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Maps are good. I did a quick Google Books search using Hallstaff culture and found this.[1] To get the specific page for the link below, I altered my search terms to Hallstatt culture steppe region. The relevant book came up near the top of the return list, so there was no need for me to narrow the search terms. As you may know, when getting a link to a specific page in a specific book, if searches give too broad a return, one can narrow down by putting a phrase and/or combination of words unique enough to appear only on the page desired in the book sought. In the example above, the search is simply a bunch of words, but it did the job. If I'd needed to narrow it down, I'da put the last two words into a phrase, thus: "steppe region" (or any other phrase and/or combination of words that would do the trick). I'm sure you get the picture.

A ref[edit]

  1. ^ Piggott, Stuart (2009), "Distribution of Hallstatt culture in ancient Europe", in ., Ancient Europe, New Brunswick, U.S.A.: Aldine Transaction, p. 180, ISBN 978-0-202-30939-2, retrieved 09 October 2011  Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)
I'm sure there's more out there, but in terms of presenting the idea, this is all I have time for. Good luck and I hope this helps. Regards Wotnow (talk) 18:32, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
Thanks a lot. I hope someone will create a new map by using this reference. --Eleassar my talk 19:02, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
'Saright. It's probably about time I checked out the map-making editors/projects, from where we may be able to enlist some help. Regards Wotnow (talk) 20:50, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
Good map - make sure to include Segovia in southern Portugal where Hallstatt stamped pottery appears around 800 BC - some people are finding it hard to accept that they went so far so early but these are the firm dates (see Gamito).Jembana (talk) 21:30, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
Cheers. I have now created a request for graphics assistance at the Wikipedia:Graphic Lab/Map workshop. Does the book's map cover the area you mention? If not we'll need a reference to help either with graphics, or at least information to help get the graphics right. Regards Wotnow (talk) 21:52, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
In figure 6 here Gamito has a nice map of Hallstatt stamped pottery distibution and mentions in detail areas of Portugal and Spain as well as Cornwall and western Britain which are not on Piggot's map in the text on the left of the map and in the timelines and maps above this figure which deal with the Iberian peninsula in relation to Hallstatt settlement or cultural expansion. I would say take Piggot's map as a base and augment it with the archaelogical evidence distribution in Gamito's work - requires only a slight extension in Iberia and Britain and maybe Italy too I'd say from her text.Jembana (talk) 23:39, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Genetics[edit]

Is it known what mitochondrial and Y haplotypes did the people of this culture have? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.181.233.232 (talk) 15:31, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

No remains were tested. The majority of researchers think that their language was donated by Y-haplogroup R-M420 and that when expanding west they were they assimilated huge sums of R-M269. Those R-M269 who were not assimilated by them and later other IE are the Basques. I agree with this scenario. YOMAL SIDOROFF-BIARMSKII (talk) 17:10, 23 March 2014 (UTC)