Talk:Han Chinese

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no mao zedong[edit]

travesty — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rzz41 (talkcontribs) 10:07, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Infobox: Notable people representing Han[edit]

I've updated the infobox with a mosaic of notable Chinese Han. The previous pictures mainly focused on Han people that have lived/are living in the 20th and 21st centuries, which obviously isn't an accurate representation of the entire history of the Han ethnic group. It's also much more cleaner looking than the previous mess of pictures. The following are rationales for the inclusion of each picture, and what they represent:

Any objections? Due to PRC/Taiwan political issues, I deliberately avoided Chiang Kai-Shek and Mao Zedong.--Hongkongresident (talk) 01:52, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

I like the historical and cross-disciplinary balance, but can't but notice that 11/12 of the figures are men. Quigley (talk) 20:07, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
That's an unfortune artifact of a society that has been largely patriarchal for most of its history. The same can be seen with other historically patriarchal societies: the image for the article on French People, which has 4 women for 27 men, the article on German People, which has 2 women for 25 men, and the article on Greeks, which has no women. I think there could be a way to incorporate more women, like the Empress Dowager Cixi to represent the Qing Dynasty, but I wouldn't be sure who to replace. This is a tough problem, suggestions? --Hongkongresident (talk) 23:24, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
What about Wu Zetian? and also can you rearrange the placement? Leaders on 1st row, philosophers on 2nd row, and others categorized in 3rd and 4t row? And for each row do it chronologized order (eg. Qin Shihuang, HanWudi, Tangtaizong, Sun yatsen).--LLTimes (talk) 00:17, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
I'm hesitant about Wu Zetian, her reign is too close to Tang Taizong's. However, I do want to see one of the Soong Sisters represented, perhaps Soong May Ling for Taiwanese Han Chinese. But, I'm against ordering it chronologically or by field. It goes against precedence, and nullifies one of the aims of the infobox picture, to compare and contrast notable Han from different time periods and different fields.--Hongkongresident (talk) 00:56, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
Li Qingzhao, famous female Chinese poet, could be included. Would represent Song Dynasty poetry.--Hongkongresident (talk) 01:04, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
Planning on expanding it to a 5x5 to include more entries. That leaves 9 open entries. --Hongkongresident (talk) 01:04, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
So far leaning towards: Yang Liwei (space travel), Empress Dowager Cixi (Qing dynasty), Lee Kuan Yew (Singaporean Chinese), Li Qingzhao (Song poetry), Shing-Tung Yau (mathematics), Soong May Ling (Taiwanese Chinese), Qiu Jin (modern Chinese literature), and Lai Man-Wai (Chinese cinema pioneer). Of these, Qiu Jin, Cixi, Li Qingzhao and Soong May Ling are women, which would up the count to 5.--Hongkongresident (talk) 01:26, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
Collage has been changed. There are now 6 women, and better quality pictures. --Hongkongresident (talk) 04:43, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
Empress Dowager Cixi was a Manchu, not a Han.Дунгане (talk) 17:27, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
Yes, thankfully I remembered to look her up before I started the collage, since I wasn't sure about her heritage (other than that she was an Empress of the Manchhu Qing Dynasty, but that didn't necessarily mean she wasn't Han). Didn't add her in, so there's nothing to worry about. --Hongkongresident (talk) 04:43, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
I would like to nominate some westerners who are of Han Chinese ancestry for consideration, like Yo-Yo Ma or Stephen Chu. →⚙量zhu (talk·contribs) 19:59, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
Don't forget Su Shi. He may be the most well-known poet through the whole Chinese history.Besides,he is a notable artist, calligrapher, pharmacologist...-- A rare universal genius.--Kuanyui (talk) 05:26, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Needs more northern chinese. Liu Bei, Guan Yu, Zhuge Liang, Zhang Zuolin, Zhang Xueliang, Yuan Shikai, Lizicheng???? Almost all everyone in the collage is a southern chinese.

Pictures[edit]

Upon looking at the pictures of the selected Notable Han Chinese, I cannot deny that Jiang Qing(江青) is definetely a notable one. But what the hell, why don't you include Qin Hui(秦桧) as well? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.127.216.60 (talk) 09:54, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

He represent Hanjian.--刻意(Kèyì) 19:26, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Overseas Chinese[edit]

Are we counting all Overseas Chinese as Han? I'm pretty sure the U.S. Census, for instance, only counts "Chinese" as an ethnicity and doesn't distinguish among ethnic groups from China. 98.209.116.7 (talk) 22:37, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Someone should clarify this, as the values stated on this article are quite different to those on (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oversea_Chinese). On that page the term "Overseas Chinese" refers to those of Han Chinese ethnicity living outside of China, or more broadly. For example in this article it is stated that there are 296,623 Han Chinese in the UK, whilst on the (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oversea_Chinese), the number is 500,000. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kreutznaer (talkcontribs) 09:26, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Religion[edit]

Despite this section containing much positive writing about religious harmony and tolerance, etc. I see no mention of Falun Gong. Curious. Henners91 (talk) 14:23, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Why should a cult that have only been around for 20 years warrant a mention on an article dealing with the Chinese people? There have been many other cult/religious movements in Chinese history that have been far more important and impactful and yet they rightly receive no mention. Why should Falun Gong recieve special treatment? You an initiate of FLG perhaps? AnAimlessRoad (talk) 23:38, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Ethnicity or Panethnicity?[edit]

Maybe it should be more clear that there are many groups within Han, and by some measures do not constitute a single group — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.4.132.89 (talk) 00:35, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

% of total world population[edit]

The side bar states: 1,310,158,851 19.73% of global human population

Currently there are 7,013,903,621 humans (http://www.census.gov/population/popclockworld.html), this would mean that Chinese are 18.68% of the global human population. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kreutznaer (talkcontribs) 09:11, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Total population[edit]

The side bar states: total population: 1,310,158,851.

Where does this figure come from? If you take the sum of the values that are stated on the page you get 1,279,516,635. So where's the extra 30,642,216 from? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kreutznaer (talkcontribs) 09:20, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Current day Han Chinese identity[edit]

Are you actually suggesting that the people who currently identify themselves as Han are genetically the same as the original people of the Han River area? This is like calling all European Americans "Anglo." The Anglos were a Germanic tribe who contributed the principal material to the English language. Many cultures and peoples have been subsumed or intermarried into the dominant Han culture over the centuries. This is how empires are consolidated; you convince all of the conquered people that they share a common identity. i think that this point should be clarified. If 92% of the current population of China is Han, how the heck did the Han reproduce so abundantly while all of the other tribes and cultures of this VAST country simply disappeared? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.136.158.157 (talk) 05:33, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

"There is considerable genetic, linguistic, cultural, and social diversity among the subgroups of the Han, mainly due to thousands of years of immigration and assimilation of various regional ethnicities and tribes within China.[12]" ButOnMethItIs (talk) 05:46, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
Can someones elaborate on this a bit I was confused by the genetics section. On one hand someone described in detail the male pattern migrations, and on the other, out of nowhere some one post "there is little geographic-genetic dispersion from north to south". How much geneticly are chinese composed of assimilated population & how much are of the Han population? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.191.20.2 (talk) 14:52, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Reliable source for DNA section[edit]

The author of this dissertation uses that evidence to indicate that most southern Chinese, including Cantonese are descended from Han from northern China marrying native women in southern China. The evidence are DNA studies of y chromosome and mitochondrial DNA testing of southern Chinese populations from Guangdong and Fujian and other areas in southern 

China which indicate that a majority of southern Chinese have mostly northern Chinese y chromosomal DNA (paternal dna) and only a small amount of northern Chinese mitochondrial DNA (maternal DNA), indicating that most southern Han Chinese descend from an expansion of northern Chinese males marrying native women in southern China.

http://books.google.com/books?id=I2OMVmp-7mwC&pg=PA42#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=I2OMVmp-7mwC&pg=PA43#v=onepage&q&f=false

Rajmaan (talk) 21:39, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

What do you mean by "northern Chinese males marrying native women in southern China. "? Southern Chinese people were originally from northern China?! Are you meaning to say "Men in Northern China are not Chinese natives?"

Religion section of Infobox[edit]

This is to discuss the minor dispute on the infobox's religion section. The Han Chinese are majority non-religious, whether it be atheist, agnostic, humanist, secular, unaffiliated, or as User:AngeloDeLaPaz pointed out "spiritual", these would in all likelihood be grouped as irreligion in surveys. To leave out such a major tradition in the infobox is disingenuous (and I also think the section on #Religion should be expanded to include the irreligious as well, as seen in the article Religion in China). There are many articles on ethnicity/nationality that includes the irreligious. Most noticeably that of the more atheistic nations, Estonians, Czechs, Swedes, Norwegians, Russians, Australians, etc. even the Americans article notes the "Unaffiliated", which could very well include the "spiritual". On the point of labeling Mahayana Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, and Chinese folk religion/Shenism as the "traditional religions", I think we should first define what is considered to be traditional to the Han Chinese. Christianity and Islam came to China quite early as well, just two to three centuries after Buddhism in the former's case. If you are referring to San jiao he yi, that is not as much a description of the religious traditions of the Han Chinese than it is a description of the philosophical tradition. --108.48.23.190 (talk) 23:24, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Han Chinese subgroups[edit]

I noticed that the article for Han Chinese subgroups just redirects to this main article. Is there any plan for a subsection for this subject. The category Category:Subgroups of the Han Chinese also applies to this main article, quite erroneously. I'm not sure whether this would go under the Culture or Genetics section. →⚙量zhu (talk·contribs) 20:02, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Request for a "subgroups of han chinese" section[edit]

That lists the ethno linguistic groups of han chinese. Cantonese, Min, Sichuanese, Hakka, Northerner etc... as well as differences in culture, beliefs, genetics, etc... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rzz41 (talkcontribs) 07:23, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

LARGEST ETHNIC GROUP? INDO-EUROPEAN IS LARGER I think that the Indo-European ethnic group is larger, comprising 700 million people in Europe, another 700 million people in Western and Southern Asia and 300 million in the Americas.--88.1.244.26 (talk) 19:25, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Indo-Europeans have been trying for thousands of years to live a distinct identity from the rest of her neighbors... Han Chinese have convergence social norms and identity over the past thousand years. Completely opposite. That's like saying Indians are "White Caucasians" since they are Indo-European (Aryan race)... which is obviously not true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.136.53.17 (talk) 06:19, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
Indo European is considered a linguistic group. It comprises several ethnic groups. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 19:32, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
My understanding was that "Han" was the correct and most useful grouping called "ethnic." Are Catonese, Min, etc. considered sub-ethnic groups?--Tznkai (talk) 04:20, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Other uses of the character "Han"[edit]

Nguyen Emperor Minh Mang claimed that the Vietnamese had the right to call themselves Han people 漢人

http://books.google.com/books?id=py5Xh0-pw18C&pg=PA115&dq=minh+mang+han&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cOZSUqPkLcbgyQHVzYD4AQ&ved=0CEcQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=minh%20mang%20han&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=q5C3Sbe1iMoC&pg=PA209&dq=minh+mang+han&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cOZSUqPkLcbgyQHVzYD4AQ&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=minh%20mang%20han&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=2j6GNiMMc1oC&pg=PA474&dq=kinh+people+of+capital&hl=en&sa=X&ei=g7xJUs2iMoO48wSzq4GYBg&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=kinh%20people%20of%20capital&f=false

http://kyotoreview.cseas.kyoto-u.ac.jp/issue/issue4/article_353.html

Minh Mang called Vietnam "Zhongguo" 中國

http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=h-asia&month=9906&week=e&msg=28mq4qDZEWt3sD%2B6t6h/lw&user=&pw=

Sinocentrism#Vietnam

Rajmaan (talk) 04:12, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Better Bruce Lee Picture[edit]

It's very hard to see the facial features of a monochrome bronze statue. Perhaps a better picture is in question? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.136.53.17 (talk) 06:16, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Population by country[edit]

Some of these numbers seem to be inflated, for instance the figure for Chinese people in Indonesia is 8.8 million, while the article Chinese Indonesians (which is a Good article by the way) indicates 2.8 million.

Also, I updated the number of Chinese Americans according to the 2010 estimate by US Census Bureau. --Երևանցի talk 21:00, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Contributions to humanity[edit]

The "Contributions to humanity" section seems very excessive given the link to the main article, particularly the last huge paragraph. Moreover, no other ethnic group page that I have seen has a similar section, so is it really appropriate to include at all? It should be shortened to a paragraph or two at the very least, to match the other sections under "Culture". Or perhaps even moved out from under Culture. DuBistKomisch (talk) 00:41, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Genetics[edit]

Southern Han largely share the same Y chromosomes with the same mutations as northern Han, while differing in mtdna and autosomal DNA.. Due to southern Han being descended from northern Han migrants who moved to southern China and married native women

http://books.google.com/books?id=I2OMVmp-7mwC&pg=PA43#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://udini.proquest.com/view/how-han-are-taiwanese-han-genetic-pqid:1668343911/

http://gradworks.umi.com/33/43/3343568.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15372031

http://159.226.149.45/compgenegroup/paper/wenbo%20Han%20culture%20paper%20(2004).pdf

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v431/n7006/full/nature02878.html

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v16/n6/abs/5201998a.html

Do not use the blog as a reference, but use it to find and cross reference other sources.

http://blog.renren.com/share/288113449/11798480444

Teochew, Fujianese, and Hakka Y chromosome compared in Singapore. The three groups largely share the same Y chromosome

http://scholarbank.nus.edu.sg/bitstream/handle/10635/27767/Summary.pdf?sequence=3

Differences between southern Han Chinese groups like Chaoshan, Hakka, and Cantonese is mainly in the mtdna lineage inherited from the mother, where some southern Han have heavy amounts of southern native mtdna.

http://en.cnki.com.cn/Article_en/CJFDTOTAL-XAYX201006005.htm

http://online4kim.net/xe/files/attach/images/7507/170/020/0b9b8d714566edea3954827c018a3c88.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7145/6590358575_7450cf0f53.jpg

http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/2131/yndahan.jpg

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/5609/2008112521014723.jpg

http://www.ranhaer.com/attachments/forumid_48/1308171634806ad8e74f2ed197.jpeg

http://www.ranhaer.com/index.php

Taiwanese Plains Aborigines, Taiwanese people

有唐山公,無唐山媽

"Have mainland (Tangshan) grandfathers, don't have mainland (tangshan) grandmothers

http://books.google.com/books?id=I2OMVmp-7mwC&pg=PA19#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=I2OMVmp-7mwC&pg=PA21#v=onepage&q&f=false

Historical Migration of Northern Han to Southern China[edit]

http://books.google.com/books?id=0DPEol7HO3gC&pg=PA213#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=0DPEol7HO3gC&pg=PA214#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=jqb7L-pKCV8C&pg=PA182&dq=Yellow+registers+white+chin&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LDgWU4PhEo3H0AHpnIHICQ&ved=0CFAQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=Yellow%20registers%20white%20chin&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=jqb7L-pKCV8C&pg=PA182#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=JTAcbF8cpQsC&pg=PA40&dq=Yellow+registers+white+chin&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LDgWU4PhEo3H0AHpnIHICQ&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Yellow%20registers%20white%20chin&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=126EsR8rpC8C&pg=PA26#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=KS6sAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA181&dq=Yellow+registers+white+jin&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8jcWU-GlF8Wj0QG89oD4DA&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Yellow%20registers%20white%20jin&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=0wRikR7hhFQC&pg=PA67&dq=Yellow+registers+white+jin&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8jcWU-GlF8Wj0QG89oD4DA&ved=0CEgQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Yellow%20registers%20white%20jin&f=false

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/MGSG/fig1mt72e.gif

alternate names[edit]

Cantonese call themselves men of Tang, or Tang people, since they were descended from northern migrants from Central Plain (China) region who fled south during the Tang dynasty, and central plains people back then were called Tang people.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ERnrQq0bsPYC&pg=PA752#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=O72FhsxwzcAC&pg=PA37&dq=cantonese+middle+chinese+mandarin&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4aGAUqnLC8flsATRgIGQBA&ved=0CD4Q6wEwAQ#v=onepage&q=cantonese%20middle%20chinese%20mandarin&f=false

Cantonese dialect is close to Chinese language during the Tang dynasty

http://books.google.com/books?id=8OT_Sbk0yekC&pg=PA99&dq=cantonese+middle+chinese+mandarin&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4aGAUqnLC8flsATRgIGQBA&ved=0CFcQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=cantonese%20middle%20chinese%20mandarin&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=Fo087ZxohA4C&pg=PA5#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=_-dJxMfdhvEC&pg=PA6&dq=cantonese+middle+chinese+mandarin&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4aGAUqnLC8flsATRgIGQBA&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=cantonese%20middle%20chinese%20mandarin&f=false

14:42, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Millet-Rice Sinitic expansion from north to south[edit]

Recently there have been edit in DNA analysis section where it talk about Sinitic expansion from north to south on the base on Sinitic connection to millet-rice. Although it is widely accepted that Sinitic expand from north to south,it is not under DNA analysis.

Qing dynasty Aisin Gioro Y chromosome DNA found in several ethnic minorities but not found in Han Chinese[edit]

Aisin Gioro Y chomosome DNA was found in "Xibe, Outer Mongolians, Inner Mongolians, Ewenki, Oroqen, Manchu, and Hezhe" males and number around 1 million people. Their ancestor was Nurhaci's grandfather Giocangga, whose descendants made up the Qing dynasty nobility. But the Y chromosome was not found in the general Han Chinese population.

The Y chromosome cluster is specifically C3c, part of the General Haplogroup C-M217, which Genghis Khan's lineage is a part of, although the Manchu Aisin Gioro Y chromosome is part of a different cluster than Genghis Khan's

The reason it spread among these specific minority groups, but not among the Han Chinese population, is because the Qing Manchu nobility was concentrated specifically in the ethnically Manchu Eight Banners and not in the Mongolian and Han Eight Banners, and the specific ethnic groups which made up the Manchu Eight banners were "Manchu, Mongolian, Daur, Oroqen, Ewenki, Xibe".

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1285168/

http://www.cell.com/ajhg/pdf/S0002-9297(07)63394-1.pdf

http://www.genebase.com/learning/article/23

Rajmaan (talk) 04:42, 17 April 2014 (UTC)