Talk:Han Chinese

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Caucasian race article is protected, and the article is shorter than Han Chinese.

Number of Chinese in South America is VERY QUESTIONABLE[edit]

Anyone from that region can shed some light on it?

I'm not from there, but having lived in Brazil for several years I can estimate the number is correct. I lived in a small city of approximately more than 100,000 people. While most "Asians" I knew (or knew of) who lived there were 1st, 2nd or 3rd generation Japanese - at least several thousand including ones who were mixed with another Ethnicity like Italian or Portuguese. To my knowledge, I had one young student whose family moved there for work from Peru who was ethnically Chinese and trilingual (Mandarin, Portuguese and Spanish). Later I saw an ad for a local dentist.Her last name was Wang. Now a small family and one doctor are totally anecdotal, but if we estimate AT LEAST 5 people in a town of roughly 100 thousand people, we can easily extrapolate the numbers given as a portion of the total population of Brazil (around 180 ~ 190 million if I recall correctly). Japanese are the dominant ethnic group from Asia with around 1 million in São Paulo metro area alone. (talk) 15:32, 21 March 2015 (UTC)Tom in South Florida

Chinese in Cuba are less than 300[edit]

Please fix it, ffs. Proofs: and

No Mao Zedong[edit]

travesty — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rzz41 (talkcontribs) 10:07, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Obviously the English version is run by white washed Chinese cunts and White thrash. They don't even know what are: "Unification" and "Nuclear Power (WMD)". Check out the Chinese version, Mao Zedong picture is there.

Infobox: Notable people representing Han[edit]

I've updated the infobox with a mosaic of notable Chinese Han. The previous pictures mainly focused on Han people that have lived/are living in the 20th and 21st centuries, which obviously isn't an accurate representation of the entire history of the Han ethnic group. It's also much more cleaner looking than the previous mess of pictures. The following are rationales for the inclusion of each picture, and what they represent:

Any objections? Due to PRC/Taiwan political issues, I deliberately avoided Chiang Kai-Shek and Mao Zedong.--Hongkongresident (talk) 01:52, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

I like the historical and cross-disciplinary balance, but can't but notice that 11/12 of the figures are men. Quigley (talk) 20:07, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
That's an unfortune artifact of a society that has been largely patriarchal for most of its history. The same can be seen with other historically patriarchal societies: the image for the article on French People, which has 4 women for 27 men, the article on German People, which has 2 women for 25 men, and the article on Greeks, which has no women. I think there could be a way to incorporate more women, like the Empress Dowager Cixi to represent the Qing Dynasty, but I wouldn't be sure who to replace. This is a tough problem, suggestions? --Hongkongresident (talk) 23:24, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
What about Wu Zetian? and also can you rearrange the placement? Leaders on 1st row, philosophers on 2nd row, and others categorized in 3rd and 4t row? And for each row do it chronologized order (eg. Qin Shihuang, HanWudi, Tangtaizong, Sun yatsen).--LLTimes (talk) 00:17, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
I'm hesitant about Wu Zetian, her reign is too close to Tang Taizong's. However, I do want to see one of the Soong Sisters represented, perhaps Soong May Ling for Taiwanese Han Chinese. But, I'm against ordering it chronologically or by field. It goes against precedence, and nullifies one of the aims of the infobox picture, to compare and contrast notable Han from different time periods and different fields.--Hongkongresident (talk) 00:56, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
Li Qingzhao, famous female Chinese poet, could be included. Would represent Song Dynasty poetry.--Hongkongresident (talk) 01:04, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
Planning on expanding it to a 5x5 to include more entries. That leaves 9 open entries. --Hongkongresident (talk) 01:04, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
So far leaning towards: Yang Liwei (space travel), Empress Dowager Cixi (Qing dynasty), Lee Kuan Yew (Singaporean Chinese), Li Qingzhao (Song poetry), Shing-Tung Yau (mathematics), Soong May Ling (Taiwanese Chinese), Qiu Jin (modern Chinese literature), and Lai Man-Wai (Chinese cinema pioneer). Of these, Qiu Jin, Cixi, Li Qingzhao and Soong May Ling are women, which would up the count to 5.--Hongkongresident (talk) 01:26, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
Collage has been changed. There are now 6 women, and better quality pictures. --Hongkongresident (talk) 04:43, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
Empress Dowager Cixi was a Manchu, not a Han.Дунгане (talk) 17:27, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
Yes, thankfully I remembered to look her up before I started the collage, since I wasn't sure about her heritage (other than that she was an Empress of the Manchhu Qing Dynasty, but that didn't necessarily mean she wasn't Han). Didn't add her in, so there's nothing to worry about. --Hongkongresident (talk) 04:43, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
I would like to nominate some westerners who are of Han Chinese ancestry for consideration, like Yo-Yo Ma or Stephen Chu. →⚙量zhu (talk·contribs) 19:59, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
Don't forget Su Shi. He may be the most well-known poet through the whole Chinese history.Besides,he is a notable artist, calligrapher, pharmacologist...-- A rare universal genius.--Kuanyui (talk) 05:26, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Needs more northern chinese. Liu Bei, Guan Yu, Zhuge Liang, Zhang Zuolin, Zhang Xueliang, Yuan Shikai, Lizicheng???? Almost all everyone in the collage is a southern chinese.


Upon looking at the pictures of the selected Notable Han Chinese, I cannot deny that Jiang Qing(江青) is definetely a notable one. But what the hell, why don't you include Qin Hui(秦桧) as well? —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 09:54, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

He represent Hanjian.--刻意(Kèyì) 19:26, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Overseas Chinese[edit]

Are we counting all Overseas Chinese as Han? I'm pretty sure the U.S. Census, for instance, only counts "Chinese" as an ethnicity and doesn't distinguish among ethnic groups from China. (talk) 22:37, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Someone should clarify this, as the values stated on this article are quite different to those on ( On that page the term "Overseas Chinese" refers to those of Han Chinese ethnicity living outside of China, or more broadly. For example in this article it is stated that there are 296,623 Han Chinese in the UK, whilst on the (, the number is 500,000. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kreutznaer (talkcontribs) 09:26, 17 May 2012 (UTC)


Despite this section containing much positive writing about religious harmony and tolerance, etc. I see no mention of Falun Gong. Curious. Henners91 (talk) 14:23, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Why should a cult that have only been around for 20 years warrant a mention on an article dealing with the Chinese people? There have been many other cult/religious movements in Chinese history that have been far more important and impactful and yet they rightly receive no mention. Why should Falun Gong recieve special treatment? You an initiate of FLG perhaps? AnAimlessRoad (talk) 23:38, 25 March 2012 (UTC) Falun Gong is noteworthy today, just like if you were to talk about Christianity denominations, you wouldn't dismiss sects like Seventh Day Adventists or Mormons, they would still at least get a mention, no? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 04:11, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Ethnicity or Panethnicity?[edit]

Maybe it should be more clear that there are many groups within Han, and by some measures do not constitute a single group — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 00:35, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Some groups like Hakka were dismissed historically as Han, even though they migrated from traditional Han areas of north China (proper) like Shandong to southern provinces like Fujian, however there customs like round houses are pretty endemic to them. Therefore, does that mean historically southerners were not Han?

Also some Han people in the Gansu and Ningxia regions have traits perhaps inherited from the Tungut, like larger noses and eyes, their ethnic appearance is vastly different to those of the eastern provinces. When Empires like the Tangut or dynasties collapses, the people and their genes, don't all just vanish overnight. There is a lot of inter-mingling with conquered people, be it even through forced coercion (rape). Also the Hui, are consider a different ethnic group, when sometimes 'Hui people' are just Han who practise Islam, a Hui person from Gansu, will have nothing perhaps in common ethnically with a Hui from Xiamen. This is when ethnicity and religion get confused with ethnic-religious groups like Jews.

Obviously Han people must have a lot of genetic influences assimilated considering the vast terrain inhabited by them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 04:21, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

What about those that have a multi-ethnic background? In the PRC, you have to be classified in a box for your ethnicity. Some children may have parents that have 2 or more backgrounds, yet they can only tick one box for identity? This kinda pigeonholing rationale is the norm in China. Some Han parents may choose a non-Han category at birth just to gain better social benefits for the child, like added points on their gaokao score or the ability for the child have more more of their own offspring as minorities are exempt from the one-child ruling. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 05:01, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

% of total world population[edit]

The side bar states: 1,310,158,851 19.73% of global human population

Currently there are 7,013,903,621 humans (, this would mean that Chinese are 18.68% of the global human population. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kreutznaer (talkcontribs) 09:11, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Total population[edit]

The side bar states: total population: 1,310,158,851.

Where does this figure come from? If you take the sum of the values that are stated on the page you get 1,279,516,635. So where's the extra 30,642,216 from? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kreutznaer (talkcontribs) 09:20, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Current day Han Chinese identity[edit]

Are you actually suggesting that the people who currently identify themselves as Han are genetically the same as the original people of the Han River area? This is like calling all European Americans "Anglo." The Anglos were a Germanic tribe who contributed the principal material to the English language. Many cultures and peoples have been subsumed or intermarried into the dominant Han culture over the centuries. This is how empires are consolidated; you convince all of the conquered people that they share a common identity. i think that this point should be clarified. If 92% of the current population of China is Han, how the heck did the Han reproduce so abundantly while all of the other tribes and cultures of this VAST country simply disappeared? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 05:33, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

"There is considerable genetic, linguistic, cultural, and social diversity among the subgroups of the Han, mainly due to thousands of years of immigration and assimilation of various regional ethnicities and tribes within China.[12]" ButOnMethItIs (talk) 05:46, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
Can someones elaborate on this a bit I was confused by the genetics section. On one hand someone described in detail the male pattern migrations, and on the other, out of nowhere some one post "there is little geographic-genetic dispersion from north to south". How much geneticly are chinese composed of assimilated population & how much are of the Han population? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 14:52, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Reliable source for DNA section[edit]

The author of this dissertation uses that evidence to indicate that most southern Chinese, including Cantonese are descended from Han from northern China marrying native women in southern China. The evidence are DNA studies of y chromosome and mitochondrial DNA testing of southern Chinese populations from Guangdong and Fujian and other areas in southern 

China which indicate that a majority of southern Chinese have mostly northern Chinese y chromosomal DNA (paternal dna) and only a small amount of northern Chinese mitochondrial DNA (maternal DNA), indicating that most southern Han Chinese descend from an expansion of northern Chinese males marrying native women in southern China.

Rajmaan (talk) 21:39, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

What do you mean by "northern Chinese males marrying native women in southern China. "? Southern Chinese people were originally from northern China?! Are you meaning to say "Men in Northern China are not Chinese natives?"

Religion section of Infobox[edit]

This is to discuss the minor dispute on the infobox's religion section. The Han Chinese are majority non-religious, whether it be atheist, agnostic, humanist, secular, unaffiliated, or as User:AngeloDeLaPaz pointed out "spiritual", these would in all likelihood be grouped as irreligion in surveys. To leave out such a major tradition in the infobox is disingenuous (and I also think the section on #Religion should be expanded to include the irreligious as well, as seen in the article Religion in China). There are many articles on ethnicity/nationality that includes the irreligious. Most noticeably that of the more atheistic nations, Estonians, Czechs, Swedes, Norwegians, Russians, Australians, etc. even the Americans article notes the "Unaffiliated", which could very well include the "spiritual". On the point of labeling Mahayana Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, and Chinese folk religion/Shenism as the "traditional religions", I think we should first define what is considered to be traditional to the Han Chinese. Christianity and Islam came to China quite early as well, just two to three centuries after Buddhism in the former's case. If you are referring to San jiao he yi, that is not as much a description of the religious traditions of the Han Chinese than it is a description of the philosophical tradition. -- (talk) 23:24, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Han Chinese subgroups[edit]

I noticed that the article for Han Chinese subgroups just redirects to this main article. Is there any plan for a subsection for this subject. The category Category:Subgroups of the Han Chinese also applies to this main article, quite erroneously. I'm not sure whether this would go under the Culture or Genetics section. →⚙量zhu (talk·contribs) 20:02, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Request for a "subgroups of han chinese" section[edit]

That lists the ethno linguistic groups of han chinese. Cantonese, Min, Sichuanese, Hakka, Northerner etc... as well as differences in culture, beliefs, genetics, etc... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rzz41 (talkcontribs) 07:23, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

LARGEST ETHNIC GROUP? INDO-EUROPEAN IS LARGER I think that the Indo-European ethnic group is larger, comprising 700 million people in Europe, another 700 million people in Western and Southern Asia and 300 million in the Americas.-- (talk) 19:25, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Indo-Europeans have been trying for thousands of years to live a distinct identity from the rest of her neighbors... Han Chinese have convergence social norms and identity over the past thousand years. Completely opposite. That's like saying Indians are "White Caucasians" since they are Indo-European (Aryan race)... which is obviously not true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 06:19, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
Indo European is considered a linguistic group. It comprises several ethnic groups. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 19:32, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
My understanding was that "Han" was the correct and most useful grouping called "ethnic." Are Catonese, Min, etc. considered sub-ethnic groups?--Tznkai (talk) 04:20, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Other uses of the character "Han"[edit]

Nguyen Emperor Minh Mang claimed that the Vietnamese had the right to call themselves Han people 漢人

Minh Mang called Vietnam "Zhongguo" 中國


Rajmaan (talk) 04:12, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Better Bruce Lee Picture[edit]

It's very hard to see the facial features of a monochrome bronze statue. Perhaps a better picture is in question? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 06:16, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Population by country[edit]

Some of these numbers seem to be inflated, for instance the figure for Chinese people in Indonesia is 8.8 million, while the article Chinese Indonesians (which is a Good article by the way) indicates 2.8 million.

Also, I updated the number of Chinese Americans according to the 2010 estimate by US Census Bureau. --Երևանցի talk 21:00, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Contributions to humanity[edit]

The "Contributions to humanity" section seems very excessive given the link to the main article, particularly the last huge paragraph. Moreover, no other ethnic group page that I have seen has a similar section, so is it really appropriate to include at all? It should be shortened to a paragraph or two at the very least, to match the other sections under "Culture". Or perhaps even moved out from under Culture. DuBistKomisch (talk) 00:41, 6 February 2014 (UTC)


Southern Han largely share the same Y chromosomes with the same mutations as northern Han, while differing in mtdna and autosomal DNA.. Due to southern Han being descended from northern Han migrants who moved to southern China and married native women

Do not use the blog as a reference, but use it to find and cross reference other sources.

Teochew, Fujianese, and Hakka Y chromosome compared in Singapore. The three groups largely share the same Y chromosome

Differences between southern Han Chinese groups like Chaoshan, Hakka, and Cantonese is mainly in the mtdna lineage inherited from the mother, where some southern Han have heavy amounts of southern native mtdna.

Taiwanese Plains Aborigines, Taiwanese people


"Have mainland (Tangshan) grandfathers, don't have mainland (tangshan) grandmothers

Autosomal DNA

Title: Y Chromosomes of 40% Chinese Are Descendants of Three Neolithic Super-grandfathers

Genetic tests on minority Zhuang Y Chromosomes show them to be of Baiyue descent, while they have some Northern Han y chromsomes due to migration of northern Han to southern China.

A map of Baiyue ethnic groups in Southern China during the Zhou dynasty's rule over Northern China.

58[A25] JIN Li, LI Hui, WEN Bo(2005) Genetic Structure of Han: Demic Diffusion of Han Culture. Journal of National Dr. Sun Yat-sen Memorial Hall 15:110-117.

     [PDF fulltext ]  [Abstract ]

57[A24] LI Hui (2005) Genetic Evidence for Nationalism of China: One Root, Tufty Branches and Crossed Twigs. Journal of National Dr. Sun Yat-sen Memorial Hall 15:118-133.

     [PDF fulltext ]  [Abstract ]

☻52[A20] WEN Bo, LI Hui, LU Daru, SONG Xiufeng, ZHANG Feng, HE Yungang, LI Feng, GAO Yang, MAO Xianyun, ZHANG Liang, QIAN Ji, TAN Jingze, JIN Jianzhong, HUANG Wei, DEKA Ranjan, SU Bing, CHAKRABORTY Ranajit, JIN Li (2004) Genetic evidence supports demic diffusion of Han culture. Nature 431:302-305.

     [PDF fulltext]  [Abstract] [Supplement1] [Supplement2] [Supplement3] [Supplement4-mtDNA]

[A24] 李輝 (2005) 從“五族共和”到“多元一體”:國族理論的遺傳實證. 國立國父紀念館館刊 15:118-133.

       LI Hui (2005) Genetic Evidence for Nationalism of China: One Root, Tufty Branches and Crossed Twigs. Journal of National Dr. Sun Yat-sen Memorial Hall  15:118-133.
     [PDF全文下载]  [摘要]

[A25] 金力,李輝,文波 (2005) 漢族的遺傳結構:文化傳播伴隨人口擴張. 國立國父紀念館館刊 15:110-117.

        JIN Li, LI Hui, WEN Bo (2005) Genetic Structure of Han: Demic Diffusion of Han Culture. Journal of National Dr. Sun Yat-sen Memorial Hall 15:110-117.
     [PDF全文下载]  [摘要]

[A20] WEN Bo, LI Hui, LU Daru, SONG Xiufeng, ZHANG Feng, HE Yungang, LI Feng, GAO Yang, MAO Xianyun, ZHANG Liang, QIAN Ji, TAN Jingze, JIN Jianzhong, HUANG Wei, DEKA Ranjan, SU Bing, CHAKRABORTY Ranajit, JIN Li (2004) Genetic evidence supports demic diffusion of Han culture. Nature 431:302-305.文波,李辉,卢大儒,宋秀峰,张锋,何云刚,李峰,高扬,毛显赟,张良,钱吉,谭婧泽,金建中,黄薇,黛卡-兰江,宿兵,查卡菩提-让纳杰,金力 (2004) 遗传证据支持汉文化传播的人口扩张模式.自然 431:302-305.

     [PDF全文下载]  [摘要]

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       LI Hui(2005). Genetic Evidence for Nationalism of China: One Root, Tufty Branches and Crossed Twigs. Journal of National Dr. Sun Yat-sen Memorial Hall, 15:118-133.

[A25] ����,����,�IJ�.�h�����z���Y�����Ļ��������S�˿ڔU��. �������������ݹݿ�,2005.15:110-117.

        JIN Li, LI Hui, WEN Bo(2005). Genetic Structure of Han: Demic Diffusion of Han Culture. Journal of National Dr. Sun Yat-sen Memorial Hall, 15:110-117. (Review).

[A20] WEN Bo, LI Hui, LU Daru, SONG Xiufeng, ZHANG Feng, HE Yungang, LI Feng, GAO Yang, MAO Xianyun, ZHANG Liang, QIAN Ji, TAN Jingze, JIN Jianzhong, HUANG Wei, DEKA Ranjan, SU Bing, CHAKRABORTY Ranajit, JIN Li, (2004). Genetic evidence supports demic diffusion of Han culture. NATURE, 431:302-305.


Pinghua population as an exception of Han Chinese's coherent genetic structure

Genetic Structure of the Han Chinese Population Revealed by Genome-wide SNP Variation

[Study on HLA haplotypes in Jiangsu-Zhejiang-Shanghai Han population].

[The genetic characteristic of HLA-DRB1 locus in the Jiangsu-Zhejiang-Shanghai Han population and a comparison of its frequency distribution with that of other populations].

These articles are about HLA allele frequency, not Y chromosome or autosomal genetics (so if you read the charts and mistakenly assume they are talking about genetic closeness you will get ridiculous results, like Northern Han and Taiwanese being closer with Southern Han in another branch, and Singapore Chinese being close to Tibetans while Southern Han and Northern Han are in another branch). Don't abuse charts like these and claim they represent how genetically related people are to each other.!po=10.8696

Historical Migration of Northern Han to Southern China[edit],+the+diversity+of+the+southern+and+south-eastern+dialects,+and+also+the+archaic+character+of+several+of+them,+bears+witness+to+the+relative+stability+of+the+peoples+established+in+these+regions&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XJM8VJaPNvPhsAT24YDwDw&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=On%20the%20other%20hand%2C%20the%20diversity%20of%20the%20southern%20and%20south-eastern%20dialects%2C%20and%20also%20the%20archaic%20character%20of%20several%20of%20them%2C%20bears%20witness%20to%20the%20relative%20stability%20of%20the%20peoples%20established%20in%20these%20regions&f=false,+Chinese+emigration+to+Yunnan,+Kwangtung+and+north+and+central+Vietnam+increased+considerably.+...&hl=en&ei=8wd5TqOiOcHv0gHxmtTrDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=At%20the%20time%20of%20the%20troubles%20which%20marked%20the%20reign%20of%20Wang%20Mang%20(9-23)%20and%20the%20first%20years%20of%20the%20Han%20restoration%2C%20Chinese%20emigration%20to%20Yunnan%2C%20Kwangtung%20and%20north%20and%20central%20Vietnam%20increased%20considerably.%20...&f=false's+oldest+living+civilization+revealed+john+makeham&dq=China:+the+world's+oldest+living+civilization+revealed+john+makeham&hl=en&sa=X&ei=VcE9VOCIL7SBsQTAu4G4CA&ved=0CB8Q6wEwAA,+most+linguists+and+historians+believe+that+Cantonese+as+a+language+and+culture+began+to+break+away+from+proto-+Chinese+during+the+Qin+dynasty+(221–206+bce).+During+that+period+Han+settlers+began+moving+into+southern+China+from+...&hl=en&sa=X&ei=06Y8VPPrIZXesATSnoLICw&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=However%2C%20most%20linguists%20and%20historians%20believe%20that%20Cantonese%20as%20a%20language%20and%20culture%20began%20to%20break%20away%20from%20proto-%20Chinese%20during%20the%20Qin%20dynasty%20(221–206%20bce).%20During%20that%20period%20Han%20settlers%20began%20moving%20into%20southern%20China%20from%20...&f=false,+perhaps+five+great+waves+of+migration+brought+Hakka+from+the+central+plains+of+northern+China+southward,+first+to+the+Gan+River+valley+in+Jiangxi+and+then+successively+into+the+rugged&hl=en&ei=mCGCTvT3GoTW0QHG4_ycAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Between%20the%20fourth%20and%20nineteenth%20centuries%2C%20perhaps%20five%20great%20waves%20of%20migration%20brought%20Hakka%20from%20the%20central%20plains%20of%20northern%20China%20southward%2C%20first%20to%20the%20Gan%20River%20valley%20in%20Jiangxi%20and%20then%20successively%20into%20the%20rugged&f=false–+HaKKa.+A+subgroup+of+the+Han+Chinese.+Most+still+live+in+Jiangxi,+Fujian,+Guangdong,+and+Taiwan.+Because+their+ancestors+were+immigrants+from+northern+China,+local+people+called+the+newcomers+hakka+(guest+families&hl=en&ei=vCGCTvanJYn50gHbsbF2&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=–%20HaKKa.%20A%20subgroup%20of%20the%20Han%20Chinese.%20Most%20still%20live%20in%20Jiangxi%2C%20Fujian%2C%20Guangdong%2C%20and%20Taiwan.%20Because%20their%20ancestors%20were%20immigrants%20from%20northern%20China%2C%20local%20people%20called%20the%20newcomers%20hakka%20(guest%20families&f=false's+compiled+volume+of+Shung+Him+Tong+genealogies+to+provide+evidence+of+the+northern+Chinese+origins+of+the+Hakka.51+What+Pang+does+with+his&hl=en&ei=uSGCTurRE6ru0gGqq92eAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=His%20best-known%20book%20on%20historical%20sources%20for%20the%20study%20of%20the%20Hakka%20draws%20in%20part%20from%20Pang's%20compiled%20volume%20of%20Shung%20Him%20Tong%20genealogies%20to%20provide%20evidence%20of%20the%20northern%20Chinese%20origins%20of%20the%20Hakka.51%20What%20Pang%20does%20with%20his&f=false,+these+%22guests%22+are+still+treated+as+outsiders+and+intruders+even+though+everyone+now+concedes+that+they+are+Han+Chinese.+The+Hakka+identify+themselves+as+northern+Chinese,+and+this+contention+has+some+basis&hl=en&ei=tCGCTpG0BcbZ0QG994mmAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=In%20many%20parts%20of%20south%20China%2C%20these%20%22guests%22%20are%20still%20treated%20as%20outsiders%20and%20intruders%20even%20though%20everyone%20now%20concedes%20that%20they%20are%20Han%20Chinese.%20The%20Hakka%20identify%20themselves%20as%20northern%20Chinese%2C%20and%20this%20contention%20has%20some%20basis&f=false

Anti foreign sentiment and blood purity among Southeastern Literati during the Tang dynasty,+who+had+risen+through+the+examination+system,+spread+the+idea+that+China's+moral+standards+and+superior+culture+had+been+polluted+by+the+decadent+barbarian-blooded+aristocrats+from+the+north&hl=en&ei=e-WhTsjDIsmP0QHq5KG5BA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Chinese%20scholar-officials%20from%20the%20southeast%2C%20who%20had%20risen%20through%20the%20examination%20system%2C%20spread%20the%20idea%20that%20China's%20moral%20standards%20and%20superior%20culture%20had%20been%20polluted%20by%20the%20decadent%20barbarian-blooded%20aristocrats%20from%20the%20north&f=false

alternate names[edit]

Cantonese call themselves men of Tang, or Tang people, since they were descended from northern migrants from Central Plain (China) region who fled south during the Tang dynasty, and central plains people back then were called Tang people.

Cantonese dialect is close to Chinese language during the Tang dynasty

14:42, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Millet-Rice Sinitic expansion from north to south[edit]

Recently there have been edit in DNA analysis section where it talk about Sinitic expansion from north to south on the base on Sinitic connection to millet-rice. Although it is widely accepted that Sinitic expand from north to south,it is not under DNA analysis.

Qing dynasty Aisin Gioro Y chromosome DNA found in several ethnic minorities but not found in Han Chinese[edit]

Aisin Gioro Y chomosome DNA was found in "Xibe, Outer Mongolians, Inner Mongolians, Ewenki, Oroqen, Manchu, and Hezhe" males and number around 1 million people. Their ancestor was Nurhaci's grandfather Giocangga, whose descendants made up the Qing dynasty nobility. But the Y chromosome was not found in the general Han Chinese population.

The Y chromosome cluster is specifically C3c, part of the General Haplogroup C-M217, which Genghis Khan's lineage is a part of, although the Manchu Aisin Gioro Y chromosome is part of a different cluster than Genghis Khan's

The reason it spread among these specific minority groups, but not among the Han Chinese population, is because the Qing Manchu nobility was concentrated specifically in the ethnically Manchu Eight Banners and not in the Mongolian and Han Eight Banners, and the specific ethnic groups which made up the Manchu Eight banners were "Manchu, Mongolian, Daur, Oroqen, Ewenki, Xibe".

Rajmaan (talk) 22:14, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

DNA section biased[edit]

The text in the DNA analyis is misleading

"Despite this, tests comparing the genetic profiles of northern Han, southern Han and southern natives determined that haplogroups O1b-M110, O2a1-M88 and O3d-M7, which are prevalent in southern natives, were only observed in some southern Hans (4% on average), but not in northern Hans. "

This would imply the paternal contribution of southern natives is only 4% when this is far from the truth. Y-DNA O1 (all subclades) is very common in (and perhaps more associated with) Dai populations. It is also very common in southern Chinese. Y-DNA O-P201 is very common in southern natives and is very common in Guangdong. There are many subclades of Y-DNA O1, O2 and O3 shared by both Dai and Han alike. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5]


Possible copyright problem[edit]

This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. Diannaa (talk) 02:50, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Problems with the title[edit]

1. "Han Chinese" gives people the impression that this article is only about the Han people in China.

2. For Wikipedia articles on other ethnic groups mainly found in China, we don't say "XXX Chinese". Instead, we say Zhuang people or Hmong people.

3. For Wikipedia articles on most ethnic groups in the world, we seldom see titles like "XXX demonym". For example, we don't use "Navajo Americans", "Ainu Japanese" or "Pashtun Afghans"; instead, we use Navajo people, Ainu people and Pashtun people.

For these reasons, I propose to rename the page to Han people. "Han Chinese" will be redirected to the page and noted in the first sentence. Lysimachi (talk) 14:06, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

This can be quite problematic, this differentiation is asking us to use the term "Chinese people" to mean "中華人"/"中國人" which are already covered by the articles Zhonghua minzu (中華民族), Demographics of Taiwan, List of ethnic groups in China, and Demographics of China, while "漢人" (alternatively Tang People "唐人") refers to largest ethnic group of China (and the world) regardless of nationality. As most people usually mean Han people when they refer to "Chinese" in general, and Zhuang, H'mông, and others are often referred to as "Minorities", but then again the popular name for the Hui's is also "Hui Chinese" so you might have a point. But another difference is that what most of the world calls "China" and/or "Chinese" and/or "Taiwan" and/or "Taiwanese" is Han, Ainu are a minority the largest ethnic group in Japan are the Yamato, Navajo are a minority as well as most U.S. Americans are Non-Hispanic German-Americans, Pashtuns are a majority in Afghanistan though, but they share their country with Persians/Tajik's and Baluch people. But Han are different as they are in fact what has always made up the "Chinese" population, and "Han" is only an alternative name, in Viet-Nam they're "Hoa" (Civilized people), in the Spanish East-Indies it was "Sangley", in Nusantara it's "Peranakan", and I can go on, placing "Chinese" next to the name is explanatory and in the context of the article maybe necessary.
Sincerely, --Namlong618 (talk) 13:14, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

infobox image problem[edit]

the image associated with Chien-Shiung Wu in the infobox appears to be an actor i recognize (but who's name i don't know), while the linked page is not him. Perhaps someone knows what to do to fix this. BakerStMD 01:51, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Ancient DNA Reveals That the Genetic Structure of the Northern Han Chinese Was Shaped Prior to 3,000 Years Ago[edit]

While it's not really of utmost importance, I don't see why this paper should be at the bottom. If anything it should be at the top, like it previously was. If readers desire is to learn about "DNA analysis" or prehistoric origin of Han Chinese, this is by far the most up-to-date of the citations listed. It actually might even actually refute some of the material in the paragraph as well, or at least require the paragraph to be rebalanced. The origins of East Asians (or at least Han) in bronze age North China, in or nearby Henan, and expanding in all directions is something I've read many scholars assert. It's surely more informative than a vague "northern" vs "southern" grouping which downplays the complexity of the scenario. In any case, I won't take any actions as I don't feel it's my place to do so. Cheers Easy772 (talk) 00:19, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 external links on Han Chinese. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

N Archived sources still need to be checked

Cheers. —cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 01:23, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Proposal for the deletion of all the galleries of personalities from the articles about ethnic groups[edit]

Seemingly there is a significant number of commentators which support the general removal of infobox collages. I think there is a great opportunity to get a general agreement on this matter. It is clear that it has to be a broad consensus, which must involve as many editors as possible, otherwise there is a big risk for this decision to be challenged in the near future. I opened a Request for comment process, hoping that more people will adhere to this proposal. Please comment here. Hahun (talk) 07:04, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Ip vandal[edit]

Zanhe STSC Nlu

We got a troll on the loose, trying to insert his own POV and agenda that southern Chinese are all Baiyue descendants and not Han people.

some of the studies, which are likely censored by the oppressive PRC government, are unreliable; one even falsely claims the Han have "one language and culture" which is utter non-sense

despite PRC trolls, "Han" are a supra-ethnic group; fact is the Yue and other southern groups are highly distinct genetically, linguistically, culturally from other "Han", esp. Mandarins and others in north China; languages are not mutually intelligible

I've been rectifying the issue by adding reliable sources- all of which are by western historians. But this troll might come back to engage in an edit war and needs warnings.

Rajmaan (talk) 05:08, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

You aren't "rectifying" anything. There are a variety of genetic studies there. Non-PRC sources are more reliable, for obvious reasons. One of the genetic studies from the PRC makes an idiotic claim that "Han Chinese have a single language", which is unsupported by any credible linguist not censored by the PRC regime. The Sinitic languages are a group of distinct languages more different from each other than languages in several families around the globe. All of the studies show the closer genetic affinity, with regards to several markers, of Yue peoples to other indigenous groups of southern China who comprised the ancient indigenous Baiyue kingdom, namely Tai and Austroasiatic speakers.

Cantonese is the official language of Hong Kong, NOT Mandarin and NOT some fake "Chinese language" which does not exist. Cantonese is mutually unintelligible with other Sinitic/Chinese languages, and it has many words in common with Vietnamese, for example, which are not shared with Mandarin and other Sinitic languages.

This article is thus not providing a neutral point of view in its current form, as it is clearly a propagandist view of PRC Chinese nationalists rather than being a balanced view including the millions of Cantonese in Hong Kong and elsewhere who identify distinctly as Cantonese first and foremost before any connection to some wider Sinitic, Han ethnic supra-group. How can Cantonese be considered the same ethnicity as Mandarin when many don't even understand what they are saying, unless they have learned Mandarin. Prior to the 20th century, practically no Cantonese person could understand a Mandarin from northern China. Saying you are politically part of one country is one thing, but saying you are the same group ethnically is just being disingenous. (talk) 06:22, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Keep on exposing yourself as an ignorant POV pusher. You don't know anything on the topic from your totally unsourced claims here. Cantonese and Hoklo are regarded as CLOSER to Middle Chinese and Old Chinese than Mandarin is. [1][2][3] Linguists say Cantonese has preserved the phonology of Middle Chinese since Cantonese are mainly descended from Northern Han migrants who migrated to Guangdong during the Tang dynasty, hence them calling themselves "people of Tang". Cantonese does not have words in common with Vietnamese that are not shared with Mandarin. Vietnamese is heavily influenced by Chinese and has tons of Old Chinese and Middle Chinese loanwords from the thousand year rule of China over Vietnam. - Sino-Vietnamese vocabulary. The words shared between Cantonese and Vietnamese, are also shared with Mandarin, and are NOT of Baiyue origin but of Old Chinese origin. Vietnamese is distinguished from its fellow Austroasiatic languages by the sheer amount of Chinese influence and words in their language. The Vietnamese word for country, quoc, is derived from Chinese 國 as an example, there are thousands of other words like that.
And Mandarin and Cantonese are far more similar to each other than Vietnamese. Vietnamese uses an entirely different numueral system. Their numbers share no similarity with Cantonese. While Mandarin and Cantonese both use Sinitic numerals. Mandarin and Cantonese both follow the same word order, Vietnamese word order is reverse, Mandarin and Cantonese say 廣東人 (Guang dong rén) (Gwong Dung yan). Vietnamese says 𠊚廣東 (Người Quảng Đông), using an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT word for person, 𠊚, while Mandarin and Cantonese both use 人. Same with Mandarin and Cantonese using 廣州話 (Guǎng zhōu huà) (Guong zeo wa), Vietnamese says Tiếng Quảng Châu 㗂廣州. The word for "I" in Mandarin and Cantonese is 我, the word for I in Vietnamese is Tôi 晬.
Numbers 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Mandarin yi er san si wu liu qi ba jiu si
Cantonese yat yih sam sei ng luk chat bat gau sap
Hokkien it ji sam su ngou liok chit pat kiu sip
Vietnamese Một Hai Ba Bốn Năm Sáu Bảy Tám Chín Mười
Now tell us how "similar" Vietnamese is to Cantonese. Vietnamese also follow different naming habits from Cantonese. They use "thi" in women's names and "van" in men's names which were never used by Cantonese. The ethnic Chinese community in Vietnam is entirely made out of Cantonese and Toishanese and they have hostile relations with the Vietnamese population.
The issue in Hong Kong is not even about ethnicity. Hong Kongers are made out of a variety of different Han people, such as Hakka, Toishan, and Shanghainese people who moved to Hong Kong in the 19th century. Hong Kongers identify themselves as HONG KONGERS 香港人- as opposed to Mainlanders 大陸人, NOT AS Cantonese 廣東人. Hong Kongers call mainlanders as 大陸人, they don't distinguish them as Han people like you claim. Its about Hong Kongers 香港人 vs Mainlanders 大陸人, NOT Cantonese 廣東人 vs Han. The Mainlanders include Cantonese mainlanders in mainland Guangdong. Hong Kongers, including Hakkas, Toishan and others, regard Cantonese from Guangdong as mainlanders and extremist Hong Kongers also oppose Cantonese mainlanders as foreigners. Its clear you are obtuse and totally ignorant about Hong Kong and Cantonese identity. Hong Kong identity is not centered around blood and ethnicity. Macaunese are not even in question, Macaunese identity is centered around a creole Catholic identity and has nothing to do with this topic.
China never claimed mutual intelligibility. China calls Chinese as 中文 - the Middle [Kingdom's] "language", in this case, it does not imply mutual intelligibilty. Chinese call Cantonese, Hokkien and Hakka as "Fangyan" which simply means "Regional speech" and carries absolutely no connotations of mutual ineligibility. The English word "dialect" means "regional speech" too but ALSO carries a connotation of mutual intelligibity with other dialects of the same language. It was westerners like Samuel Wells Williams who chose to translate "Fangyan" into "dialect" in the 19th century. Chinese people just followed suit and when talking in English, translated "Fangyan" as "Dialect" after copying what those westerners did.
Mutual intelligibility between different varieties of a language is not a criteria for different ethnicity. Tōhoku dialect of Japanese is not mutually intelligible with other varieties of Japanese. There are some Swiss German dialects not intelligible with standard German. Moroccan Arabic is not understood by Middle Eastern Arabic speakers, and is not intelligible at all with Central Asian Arabic.
Chinese traditionally employed Classical Chinese as the written language and used Mandarin, Cantonese, Hokkien, and Hakka "readings"- Literary and colloquial readings of Chinese characters. It was recently when Mandarin on the standard of Baihua was made the written language. All Chinese varieties of speech are descended from Middle Chinese and Old Chinese from which Classical Chinese is the written form.
Dialect groups are not regarded as ethnicities or markers of shared ethnic identity. There are clans from the same ancestor spread across multiple provinces who speak different dialects. The Confucius Kong family has branches spread all over China. Are you going to claim that a member of the Kong family in Guangdong is of a different ethnicity than a Kong member in Mandarin speaking Shandong? The very word used for "Cantonese" is simply the provincial unit- 廣東- not signifying ethnic identity, only regional identity. Guangdong province didn't exist before the Ming dynasty. Cantonese, Hoklo, and other south eastern Chinese people referred to their ethnicity as "people of Tang" 唐人, and they called China Tangshan 唐山 because a massive part of their ancestry is from Tang dynasty era northern Chinese migrants to southern China. The Baiyue were marginalized into the minorities like the Zhuang, Miao, Yao, and Tujia. Baiyue practiced tatooing. Those minorities practice tattoing. Cantonese people didn't practice tattooing, they share more taboos and culture as northern Chinese than southern minorities. The Cantonese even used slurs like "barbarian" to refer to southern minorities.
furthermore, the sources used for DNA have been corroborated and peer reviewed by westerners, and the historical sources on southern Han originated from northern Han migration are written by western historians.Rajmaan (talk) 06:53, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment - I have requested semi-protection on this and other articles. STSC (talk) 06:48, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
Actually, Cantonese very much has several words in common with Sino-Vietnamese words which are not shared with other Sinitic languages and are quite distinct from them. See here. China also did not rule over Vietnam "for 1000 years"; it was far less than this, and the Chinese rule which did occur was interrupted between centuries of indigenous Vietic rule.
In any case, I never said that Cantonese was more similar to Vietnamese than to other Sinitic languages. Vietnamese is an Austroasiatic language, more similar to Khmer than to any Sino-Tibetan language. What I DID say was that Cantonese has similarities to Vietnamese, stemming from their common Baiyue origins, which are not found in other Sinitic languages, and which are absent in northern Sinitic langauges like Mandarin. Mandarin meanwhile has significant influences from northern languages like Mongolian and Manchu which are absent from Sinitic languages like Cantonese. Standard Mandarin itself in its current only arose after so many Manchu and Jurchen peoples settled in Beijing starting from the Yuan dynasty, which was when Bejing was first made capital, and continuing into the Manchu dynasty period.
With regards to Hong Kong, ethnicity very much is a factor besides political differences. The majority of Hong Kongers are of southern ethnic origins, mainly Cantonese from Guangdong, but yes also Hakka, Hoklo and others. Cantonese is the official language there, not Mandarin and not Hakka or Hoklo, and the people are constantly protesting for greater protections and rights for the Cantonese language, media and culture in the face of Mandarin use by the PRC. Hong Kong is a major centre for Cantonese language media used in China and elsewhere.
With regards to mutual intelligibility, the example of the Tohoku dialect of Japanese you mention is not a sufficient comparison for your argument. Tohoku is still mutually intelligible with the other forms of Japanese, just with greater difficulty. Cantonese meanwhile is not mutually intelligible at all with nearly any of the other Sinitic languages. This is also not just simply with say Mandarin, but even with geographically closer languages like Wu and Hakka which are not intelligible with Cantonese.
Anyway, I'm done with this. Do what you want. If you want to tow the line of the PRC government, go ahead, but you aren't doing any service to anyone, nor are you presenting a balanced, accurate article. (talk) 07:32, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
Modern Chinese varieties Sino-Vietnamese Sino-Korean
Sino-Japanese[1] Middle Chinese[a]
Beijing Suzhou Guangzhou Meixian Go-on Kan-on
1 iɤʔ7 jat1 jit5 nhất il ichi itsu ʔjit
2 èr ɲi6 ji6 ɲi4 nhị i ni ji nyijH
3 sān 1 saam1 sam1 tam sam san sam
4 sɿ5 sei3 si4 tứ sa shi sijH
5 ŋ6 ng5 ŋ3 ngũ o go nguX
6 liù loʔ8 luk6 liuk5 lục lyuk roku riku ljuwk
7 tsʰiɤʔ7 chat1 tsʰit5 thất chil shichi shitsu tshit
8 poʔ7 baat3 pat5 bát phal hachi hatsu pɛt
9 jiǔ tɕiøy3 gau2 kiu3 cửu kwu ku kyū kjuwX
10 shí zɤʔ8 sap6 səp6 thập sip jū < jiɸu dzyip
All of those words in the table shared between Cantonese and Vietnamese are of Sinitic origin from Old Chinese and Middle Chinese. FYI those words are explicitly Sino-Vietnamese numerals - numerals whose names are directly borrowed from Old and Middle Chinese, which are NOT the same as indigenous Vietnamese numerals. Vietnam used Sino-Vietnamese numerals to pronounce Chinese characters only when reading Classical Chinese texts, when they speak their own Vietnamese language, they use native numerals - Một Hai Ba Bốn Năm Sáu Bảy Tám Chín Mười. I already showed how native Vietnamese numerals have absolutely nothing in common with Cantonese. Vietnamese borrowed those words from Old Chinese and Middle Chinese during Chinese rule, and Cantonese preserved those words because Cantonese is closer to Middle Chinese and Old Chinese than Mandarin.
Go add up the years at Chinese domination of Vietnam. It is over a thousand years of rule. The rebel Lý Nam Đế who established the Early Lý dynasty was a Chinese. His family fled from China to Vietnam during Wang Mang's interregnum. He was not a "indigenous Vietic". The Tran dynasty and Ho dynasty which ruled Medieval Vietnam were also of Chinese origin. The Ho dynasty even claimed descent from Chinese Emperor Shun.
Your claims on ethnicity are a joke again because Cantonese, Hokkien and others don't use Cantonese and Hokkien as ethnic identities. "Cantonese" literally means "Guangdong province person" and has no ethnic connotation at all. Again, a branch of the Kong family in Shandong could be Mandarin speakers while another branch of the Kong family could be Cantonese speakers in Guangdong, now are you going to claim they are different ethnicities?
Cantonese and Hokkien refer to their own ethnicity as "Tang people" which is because they are mainly descended from Tang era northern Han migrants. They boast about how Cantonese is the closest to Tang era Middle Chinese spoken in Northern China. And when they use it as "Tang people" they use it as synonymous to "Han people"- all the Sinitic speakers of China were "Tang people" in the eyes of Cantonese and other southern Chinese. They referred to the entire China as "Tangshan" (Tang mountain). You clearly don't know anything about ethnic identity of southern Chinese.Rajmaan (talk) 07:52, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
Both Northern Han Mandarin speakers and southern Han like Cantonese, Hoklo and others all referred to themselvesa as 華人 "Hua people" and overseas both of them were called 華僑 Hua qiao. In Korea, Mandarin speaking northern Han from Shandong were called 華僑 hwagyo, in Vietna, southern Han like Cantonese and Toishanese were referred to as 華 Hoa people. 華人 has been another name for the entire Chinese ethnicity even before Han people was used.
In Nguyen Dynasty Vietnam the Vietnamese Nguyen Emperors even referred to Vietnamese as Han people. 漢人Talk:Vietnamese_people#Han_as_a_name_for_Vietnamese_people
Balthazarduju can you fix Cantonese people, Taiwanese people, Yue Chinese, Chinese Canadians, and Speakers of Wu Chinese as well?Rajmaan (talk) 08:02, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

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