Talk:Haredi Judaism

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"significant number of secular Jews"[edit]

I'm a little curious about the line:

"Their numbers have also been boosted by a significant number of secular Jews adopting a Haredi lifestyle" The cited sources are from the 90's early 00's. As such, I think its about time for an update.

From one of the sources used in this article (which is old): "The number of baalei teshuvah, "penitents" from secular backgrounds who become Ultraorthodox Jews, amounts to a few thousand, mainly between the years 1975-87, and is modest compared with the natural growth of the haredim; but the phenomenon has generated great interest in Israel."

In regards to the term: "boosted by a significant number," what does it actually mean? The previous source stated a number of thousand. However, out of 1.3-1.5 million, even 10 thousand is less than .7-.8% of the population. Also keep in mind that the particular source stated the period was mainly 75-87... a span of 12 years! So the average growth rate during those years was actually very very small.

As such, I believe "boasted by a significant number" is misleading. I did a quick search and didn't find any specific statistics on this topic from 2008-2013, likely in part due to it being so hard to define and measure. Even if the number today is many times that rate, it likely pales in comparison to the natural growth rate of the community.

I suggest changing the sentence to something like "Their numbers have also increased by a modest, yet notable, number of secular Jews adopting a Haredi lifestyle." If I don't hear of any nay sayers, I'm going to make the change sometime next week. If someone has a better sentence than mine with regards to this issue, feel free to through it out there. I'd also like to see some good sources, particularly if we can get some good statistics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by T59Man (talkcontribs) 12/Nov/13

Afd/Sexual abuse cases in Brooklyn's Haredi community[edit]

Some followers of this page may be interested in Articles for deletion/Sexual abuse cases in Brooklyn's Haredi community. --Epeefleche (talk) 23:10, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

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Question? Archived sources still need to be checked

Cheers. —cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 11:23, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Merge in Criticism of Haredi Judaism[edit]

I propose that Criticism of Haredi Judaism be merged into Haredi Judaism. The "Criticism" article is extremely short. I understand that it was intended to be a parallel article to other "Criticism of..." articles. However with so little content there's really no reason to have a separate article. 2602:306:C5B4:E3D0:C515:DD5D:34C0:3164 (talk) 20:45, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

  • Support. Separate criticism sections are inherently unable to be WP:NPOV. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 03:52, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Support I also think this can safely be merged with Haredi Judaism. The article is very small, and can be a section there. In addition, Haredi is a denomination in Judaism, and I noticed in Category:Criticism of religion that we don't have article on denominations, just the religions themselves. Debresser (talk) 13:42, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Support. Better to discuss criticism in context rather than putting this in subarticles. JFW | T@lk 11:29, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 24 November 2015[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Debate about which term is actually more common and also sourced concerns that the proposed title is derogatory, although I should note there was also some debate about that. Clearly, however, there is not a consensus to move this article at the moment. Jenks24 (talk) 08:15, 9 December 2015 (UTC)



Haredi JudaismUltra-Orthodox Judaism – We need the assistance of an Administrator in order to move this page's history. Talk page was already successfully moved. The explicit reason: Haredi Judaism sounds like a 4th Judaism stream along with Orthodox+Conservative+Reform, which it isn't. Bostonnine (talk) 02:50, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

I think by "we" you only mean "you", and that there may be in fact consensus for keeping the name "Haredi Judaism". In fact, you made an incorrect copy-and-paste move which I reverted but which you reverted back immediately. LjL (talk) 02:56, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
"We" stands for us Ultra-Orthodox Jews. Please step back because according to your 500 last edits you have never read anything about Judaism whatsoever. Bostonnine (talk) 03:04, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia's consensus process calls for a consensus among all interested editors. No editor is disqualified from participating in a discussion matter because of experience with the subject or lack thereof; however, editors may want to refrain from directly editing articles when they have a conflict of interest with a subject. —C.Fred (talk) 03:08, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, you don't get to decide how the group you belong to is called on Wikipedia. On the other hand, I do get to tell you that violating copyright within Wikipedia is not okay, and neither is going against established WP:Consensus without any discussion (have you checked the templates on top of this talk page?). Please desist from doing either thing. LjL (talk) 03:10, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
It's just math. Google these terms "Ultra-Orthodox" over 600,000 thousands results, while "Haredi" makes barely 400k. Bostonnine (talk) 03:11, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
That hardly seems like an even remotely meaningful difference, nevermind that the "Google test" is flawed in many aspects. On Google Books, both terms have a nearly identical amount of results (with a slight advantage for "Haredi", 85k vs 84k). Anyway I'm not even sure why I'm debating against this level of arrogance... LjL (talk) 03:14, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Support Per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:UE. I'm not sure how the above user reached their Google Books results, but my search came up with 137,000 for Ultra-Orthodox and 85,000 for Haredi. News organisations largely use ultra-orthodox, for example, the BBC has 1,940 hits for ultra-orthodox and 166 for Haredi ; CNN has 900 for ultra-orthodox and 108 for Haredi. Even some Israeli English language news sources prefer ultra-orthodox (Haaretz by 31,500 to 9,200; Times of Israel by 30,000 to 7,081). Number 57 11:23, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
Please try searching for the terms inside quotes, which is what one should always do when searching terms composed of multiple words to assess the number of hits. LjL (talk) 15:12, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment, quoted from the lead of this article - "Its members are often referred to as strictly Orthodox or ultra-Orthodox in English. The term "ultra-Orthodox," however, is considered a derogatory slur by some in the community" and from terminology section - "The word Haredi is increasingly being used in the Jewish diaspora in place of the term "ultra-Orthodox", which some view as inaccurate or offensive,[19][20] it being seen as a derogatory term suggesting extremism; English-language alternatives that have been proposed include "fervently Orthodox"[21] and "strictly Orthodox"", is this relevant to this discussion? Coolabahapple (talk) 15:18, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
I sure hope nobody will propose "fervently Orthodox Judaism" as an article title (per WP:NEO among other things). LjL (talk) 15:25, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Very strong oppose. This is absolutely not good. "Ultra-Orthodox" is indeed considered by many if not most to be a derogatory term, insinuating there is something "ultra" - extremist, negative - about keeping your faith according to classical tradition. I am a former Haredi Jew myself. This proposed move is absolutely wrong and must be stopped at all cost. Very strongly oppose this. I must note that whilst I am currently not so active on Wikipedia, I was very active in the past and contributed greatly to many related articles. --Piz d'Es-Cha (talk) 15:38, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose. I am also a Haredi Jew and I concur that "ultra-Orthodox", while used by most commentators, is a pejorative term, implying that Haredim are somehow more extreme than "regular" Orthodox. This is not true; please see the definitions and overlapping philosophies in the Orthodox Judaism article. (The BBC and Haaretz, by the way, are displaying anti-Haredi bias by insisting on calling them "ultra-Orthodox". Try looking up non-leftist sites instead.) It sounds like it's time to rewrite the lead of this article, rather than change the title. For your information, Bostonnine, there are more than 3 "streams" of Judaism: there are Haredi, Hasidic, Modern Orthodox, Open Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, Humanistic, and probably more than I don't know about. Wikipedia has correctly named this page after years of consensus, and it should not be moved. Yoninah (talk) 16:47, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Haredi and Ultra-Orthodox are different concepts. Many commentators would refer to the more right-wing part of National Religious Judaism as "Ultra-Orthodox", and NR would not self-identify as Haredi. This was debated in extenso a good while ago and I don't think the parameters for the current naming have changed since then. JFW | T@lk 21:55, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment: the editor who initiated this RM is now blocked indefinitely. JFW | T@lk 22:00, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Now we need to fix this.... I can't undo it, who can? --Piz d'Es-Cha (talk) 09:56, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

  • Oppose - this should be closed as disruptive МандичкаYO 😜 13:20, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Aside from the pejorative issue that Yoninah mentions, "ultra-Orthodox" is vague: how do you define who's ultra, how does someone else, etc? The concept of Haredi(m) is well defined, but the concept of ultra-Orthodox isn't. Nyttend (talk) 22:55, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment. I'm perfectly happy with "haredi" in the title, as long as "ultra-orthodox" is present as a redirect. However I'd like to note that the idea that "ultra-orthodox" is a pejorative expression is a modern American idea that is far from universally accepted. I'd be interested if anyone can find such a claim from before the 1990s. The intent of the phrase is merely that haredim are especially stringent in their observance of halacha, which is exactly what they think about themselves. Here is an example of a major haredi news outlet that uses "ultra-orthodox" extensively. Zerotalk 00:15, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment I don't like either, or the article as it's currently written. I've been trying to find where in the article it discusses when the term came in vogue, at least in the US and I can't find it. There were no Charedim in the US when I was growing up, they were just frum or super frum or whatever you want to call it, and when they moved to Israel, they found out they weren't considered charedim. In Israel, things are more black and white and you "need" to identify yourself with a stream, but American Orthodoxy is more "normal" or was until most recently. There's a whole history section, but it's a history of the Agudah, not of Haredi Judaism Sir Joseph (talk) 14:28, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
  • That being said, I Oppose the move. Sir Joseph (talk) 14:49, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Don't add[edit]

Do not add that article to Haredi Judaism , it does not belong there it is a separate topic , Haredi Judaism (the Wiki article)as it stands ,is about Haredi Judaism not the bad things people do , it is common sense that things happen within groups and one should be cautious but to add it takes away from what the subject is meant to convey. 98.25.15.164 (talk) 10:35, 19 March 2016 (UTC)Glenn

What are you talking about? Debresser (talk) 16:53, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

Image[edit]

I'm not sure the best image we have to illustrate Haredi Judaism would be the backs of three Haredi youths when we have so many others. Examples:

I feel like we could easily pick a more representative image. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 12:54, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

The first is just one person, and very partial. The second would be better for an article about Haredi education. The third is not bad. The fourth is bad quality. The fifth is the same back, or even just hats. This picture is not bad, IMHO, and it is very typical. Debresser (talk) 18:07, 1 October 2016 (UTC)