Talk:Hasidic Judaism

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This article has very few references for its length and has been tagged for improvement for a long time. I propose to clean up unreferenced material. Does anyone have any objections? --John (talk) 19:15, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

@John: Looks like a lot of original research and some possible copyvio, so yes, go ahead. Doug Weller talk 15:52, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

Name change[edit]

For some reason, this article was created as "Hasidic Judaism". But this appellation is very rare in literature etc. Everyone calls it "Hasidism": Encyclopedia Judaica, YIVO Encyclopedia and so forth. I propose a move. AddMore-III (talk) 05:40, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

"Hasidic Judaism" sounds more English than Hasidism. See WP:ENGLISH. Debresser (talk) 10:10, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
Hasidic Judaism is more in line with the rest of the naming conventions, besides what Debresser said. We have Orthodox Judaism, Modern Orthodox Judaism, Reform Judaism and Hasidic Judaism. Hasidism is not used in day to day life. I've never really heard that term, other than in a derogatory way, as opposed to Hasidic Judaism. Sir Joseph (talk) 13:57, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
Debresser, Sir Joseph, I don't see the difference. "Hasidic" is just as alien sounding as "Hasidism". Apart from that, "Hasidic Judaism" has just 54,500 unique Google results vs. 290,000 for "Hasidism". In Google Books the ratio is a whooping 3,900 to 103,000. In Google Scholar, 695 to 9,800. Even the PBS 1997 documentary was named "A Life Apart: Hasidism in America", and the New York Times' search index brings up 926 results for H vs. 34 for HJ. AddMore-III (talk) 07:19, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
But I get 255,000 for Hasidic alone in GBooks, 21,000 in GScholar, so more than Hasidism. And Google News gives me over 82,000 ("about 82,400) for Hasidic vs about only 1700 for Hasidism. Doug Weller talk 09:31, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
User:Doug Weller, if "Hasidic" alone rather than "Hasidic Judaism" was an optional title (of course it's not), I'd agree. AddMore-III (talk) 09:57, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
@AddMore-III: I'm finding links when I search for hasidim that only mention Hasidic - so far that's just News searches, but this is something Google does. Doug Weller talk 12:53, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
To me, Hasidism reads as if it's a separate religion. Hasidic Judaism implies that the Hasidim are still part of Judaism. We don't have Reformism for Reform Judaism or Orthodoxism. As I said before, the only time I've ever heard or seen Hasidism is when people are speaking negatively as if to show that Hasidim don't practice Judaism for whatever reason. Sir Joseph (talk) 13:23, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

AddMore-III is correct that "Hasidism" gets many more hits (290,000) than "Hasidic Judaism" (54,500) . But "Hasidic Jews" gets 411,000, suggesting that the adjectival form is much more common than the noun form. So I would stick with "Hasidic Judaism". --Ravpapa (talk) 17:11, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Again I don't see how that's relevant. We're not debating using "hasidim" vs. "Hasidic Jews", but "Hasidism" vs. "Hasidic Judaism." All encyclopedias and lexicons I could get my Google on use "Hasidism", and even most other wikis (German, Russian, French). That's also the original phrase in Hebrew. As to the "Reformism" argument, au contraire: specifically because it's a movement rather than a full-fledged denomination it's better to use H rather than HJ. In addition, Encyclopedia Judaica etc. all use the terms Reform/Conservative Judaism fully, but not so for Hasidism. AddMore-III (talk) 19:45, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Criticisms of behavior of some Hasidim[edit]

I raised this above at "Brooklyn: "Orthodox Abuse Suspects Get Exemption"". I worry about this article. Anyone who knows about Hasidic Jews knows that there are various social problems (I worked with them for some years as a social worker), and these include criminal activities. Money laundering is one example, see[1] and Spinka financial controversy. Then there's the sad Sexual abuse cases in Brooklyn's Haredi community. None of this is mentioned or linked in this article. It would be clearly wrong to make a big deal of any of this, but no mention at all? Doug Weller talk 13:01, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

I don't think being a criminal or sex abuser is part of being Hasidic so I'm not sure why the need to include it. At the Spinka article or the abuse articles, you can of course mention that the person is Hasidic. Priesthood_(Catholic_Church) does not include anything about the Catholic Priests abusing children, that is at Catholic_Church_sexual_abuse_cases. Sir Joseph (talk) 17:59, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
However, it's mentioned in the lead at Catholic Church. Of course there is also Criticism of the Catholic Church. Doug Weller talk 18:29, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
One difference is that the Catholic Church has an organized hierarchy and membership. If someone is a priest, they are ordained by the church and sanctioned by the church. The same can't be said here. A Hasidic Jew is Hasidic because he says he is, there is no responsible organizational structure. Sir Joseph (talk) 19:14, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 10 June 2016[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus here and in the above section (#Name change) is strongly against this move. (closed by page mover) Calidum ¤ 04:40, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

Hasidic JudaismHasidism – As demonstrated above, all English-language encyclopedias (Britannica, Judaica, YIVO, Jewish Encyclopedia etc.) use the term "Hasidism"; it also outnumbers "Hasidic Judaism" 290,000 to 54,500 on Google, 103,000 to 3,900 on Google Books, 9,800 to 695 on Google Scholar. The only serious counter-argument was that "Hasidic Judaism" sounds more English than "Hasidism"; this is both incorrect (Hasidism, Hasidic, same same) and irrelevant, cf. all encyclopedias and reference works. AddMore-III (talk) 07:16, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

  • Oppose as per my comments above."as demonstrated above" nobody other than the nominator was in favor of the move. Sir Joseph (talk) 14:10, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
Yet somehow, any other printed encyclopedia I could get my Google on concurs. Discussions are not for counting fingers, but for comparing the soundness of arguments. AddMore-III (talk) 14:39, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

Pinging, @Debresser, Ravpapa, and Doug Weller:

I disagree, we go by common every day usage and Hasidic Judaism is far more prevalent. Sir Joseph (talk) 15:22, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
Oppose: since it is apparent that "Hasidic Judaism" is the far more common usage. DaltonCastle (talk) 22:47, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
DaltonCastle, Your claim is patently false. A simple Google search (did one just now) would yield "Hasidism" 278,000 hits against 55,500 for "Hasidic Judaism." 5:1. Do it yourself. In addition, both the Oxford and Merriam Webster dictionaries use the word "Hasidism", NOT "Hasidic Judaism." In addition, I'll bet Wikipedia itself, by adopting the far less common title, skews the results which would have been even more overwhelming otherwise. I provided ample citations. Where are the ones to the contrary? AddMore-III (talk) 05:48, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Shtible Addition[edit]

This page could use some more information on the history of Hassidism how Hassidism spread in Eastern Europe. I would want to include information from "Stampfer Why Hassidism Spread". In this article, he discusses what allowed Hassidism to spread, one of his main points being the use of shtibles. If anyone on this page had any comments or additions to what I want to add I would love to know (Alexis2552 (talk) 02:16, 25 April 2017 (UTC))

Alexis, it would be nice to know the full reference; it isn't clear what "Stampfer Why Hassidism Spread" refers to. Chapmansh (talk) 00:01, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Critics of Hasidic Judaism[edit]

To be impartial, the article needs to deal with the critics of Hasidic Judaism and the points they raise. Here are some materials that might be helpful:

deisenbe (talk) 11:30, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

These memoirs are all primary sources. To put a section together using references such as these would be original research. Social scientists and anthropologists have done studies in the area of Hasidism, both books and articles. Some of these talk about dissidents within and leaving the communities, without the authors being emotionally involved. That would be a better way to approach the subject. StarryGrandma (talk) 18:36, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Neutral POV[edit]

I put the POV template back in. When the whole topic is never referred to in the article, it does not have a neutral POV.

Here is another piece, from a recent New York Times, to add to those above:

If there were a separate article on opposition/escapees from Hasidic/Haredi/Ultra-Orthodox Judaism, the matter could be settled by a reference to it. While there is an article on Criticism of Judaism as a whole, I cannot find this material treated anywhere in WP. Please enlighten me if I am mistaken. deisenbe (talk) 13:35, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

This is an article about Hasidim. Not Haredim, or UOJ. You are just vandalizing the page. This is not the page to add references to OTD people, same as the Catholic page doesn't have it either. Sir Joseph (talk) 14:23, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

What does OTD mean? deisenbe (talk)

OTD is defined in the second sentence of the reference you just posted. You won't find good secondary sources just by searching online. The article as it stands has no point of view problems. To provide a serious (and neutral) section on dissent within and leaving the communities will require finding sources at a major city or university library. All orthodox communities that put many restrictions on their members, from Amish to Hasidic to Catholic to LDS, deal with these issues. Remember too that the more open groups, such as Lubavitch and Bostoner, attract young Jews who become members. You would need that to balance material on those who leave. StarryGrandma (talk) 20:58, 15 May 2017 (UTC)