Talk:Heatherton, Victoria

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Suggested Areas for Article Expansion[edit]

  • Education - details of schools in Heatherton, or those that children in the suburb would, by default, attend.
  • Transport - Bus routes, closest stations
  • Sport - other sporting clubs active

M1rtyn (talk) 06:40, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

The Kingston Centre - Kingston Heath Reserve - Kingston Heath Golf Club[edit]

  • The Kingston Centre [1]
  • Kingston Heath reserve [2]
  • The Kingston Heath Golf Club [3]

are all located in Cheltenham not Heatherton. They have been removed from this article, with the Kingston Centre added to Cheltenham, Victoria where it should have been originally. Heatherton article does need major work, with correct referencing, because it's apalling to find out that not 1 but 3 places that have been mentioned in this article for quite some time, do not belong to this article but to another suburbs article. I grant that Chetenham and Heatherton are directly adjacent to each other, but there is an 'invisible barrier' between them, look in the Melway and also look at these 3 links above ^^^ they all state that they are part of Cheltenham. It may be hard to re-build this article but whats worse than having not that much information--is having wrong information, that clearly does not belong.

If there is anything you want to take up with me, please discuss on my talk page :) Thankyou. MelbourneStar1 (talk) 09:52, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Location dispute[edit]

A dispute has arisen between USER:M1rtyn(talk) and USER:MelbourneStar1 (talk) regarding the location of a number of sites considered by one user to be in the suburb of Heatherton, and by the other in the adjacent Cheltenham. This has resulted in a Revert War on this article.

A Third Opinion is sought to resolve this dispute. For ease, the content from the Talk Pages of both Users has been consolidated below (with addtional carriage returns removed):

From M1rtyn talk[edit]

According to the history of the Heatherton page it says that you were the first one to add the Kingston Centre in the article. However the only problem, is that the Kigston Centre is located in Cheltenham, Not Heatherton. I have removed that section because it is misleading. The Kingston Centre has been added to the Cheltenham article, where it should have been originally. Thankyou.MelbourneStar1 (talk) 09:07, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

I have also removed the Kingston Heath Golf Club and the Kingston Heath Reserve, They are in Cheltenham as well, not Heatherton. Thanks MelbourneStar1 (talk) 11:04, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Please visit Heatherton's talk page follow the links to the 3 places, you'll see either on a Council, or the Places own site, that they are located in Cheltenham not Heatherton. In Cheltenham we also have:

Kingston Heath Soccor complex (next to Kingston Heath reserve) Kingston Heath primary school (behind Kingston Heath Reserve) Kingston Central Plaza (in front of Kingston Heath reserve) Kingston Municipal offices (a key feature of the council, that will also tell you that these places are in Cheltenham not Heatherton)

so that would also imply that we have:

Kingston Centre (Warragul road, Cheltenham....Keys road is neally opposite the centre...the road being in Cheltenham too. Kingston Heath Reserve Kingston Heath Golf Club (located on Kingston road, Cheltenham)

I have done extensive research into this. Visit the City of Kingston [4] for more info.

Thanks :) MelbourneStar1 (talk) 12:38, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I wont be hesitant to report you, because I have done the research its factual. with all due respect yours is not. MelbourneStar1 (talk) 12:40, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

MelbourneStar1: Looks like we're not getting to consensus fast here - I suggest we call for a Third Opinion - happy with that? M1rtyn (talk) 13:09, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

From MelbourneStar1 talk[edit]

Hi MelbourneStar1. Thanks for your note on my User page regarding your change to my Kingston Centre content on the Heatherton page. Very good of you to take the time to leave a note - most revisions are done without such courtesy! I've reviewed your changes, and will be reverting some of them, I'm afraid - a check of the Melways shows that the Kingston Centre is physically in the suburb of Heatherton, though (confusingly) it has a Cheltenham Street adress - I guess because the front gate is on Warrigal Rd, which marks the boundary between Heatherton and Cheltenham. The Kingston Heath Golf Club is definitely in Heatherton (Google Maps even gives Heatherton as their address), though amusingly they give themselves a Cheltenham address on their website (regardless of the fact that there is no Kingston Road in Cheltenham). Maybe this is because most Melburnians (let alone the rest of the world) have never heard of Heatherton... Your sandbelt revision is much less clear cut. I couldn't find an authoritiative definition of what consitutes "the sandbelt", though I did find both that the Kingston Heath and Capital courses are described (and the former self describes) as being "in the Melbourne Sandbelt" I've added references to all the above accordingly. Finally, Kingston Heath Reserve is indeed in Cheltenham - my bad.

I guess the underlying message for both of us is that all information on Wikipedia must be verifiable from (preferably multiple) sources - just like it says under the editing box. By definition, it must not contain "original research" - neither your nor my opinion has any validity. I didn't include references to support all of the information originally provided, but have now satisfied myself that the information given is accurate, and have referenced, where appropriate.

M1rtyn (talk) 12:14, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I know that your just helping the Heatherton article but those 3 places are not in Heatherton. 1. based on google, type in the place then cheltenham next to it....you will see there is more results than if u type Heatherton in 2. The Kingston City Council recognizes those three places in Cheltenham 3. all three site have their own webpages that clearly state there in Cheltenham.

Please don't revert, they are not in Heatherton. MelbourneStar1 (talk) 12:20, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

MelbourneStar1 - I currently live between the two locations in question - in Heatherton, postcode 3202. Regardless of what they say on their websites, they are physically in Heatherton. Probably the most authorative source for geospatial data in Victoria is the interactive map at land.vic.gov.au. Not the easiest site to use, but have a look and what you think. M1rtyn (talk) 12:48, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

According to Land.vic.gov.au, the location of the Kingston Centre is 400 Warrigal Road, Heatherton 3202. The location of (the clubhouse) of the Kingston Heath Golf Club is 66 Kingston Road, Heatherton, 3202. M1rtyn (talk) 12:58, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

MelbourneStar1: Looks like we're not getting to consensus fast here - I suggest we call for a Third Opinion - happy with that? M1rtyn (talk) 13:10, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Response and discussion[edit]

Searchtool-80%.png About your Third Opinion request:
Disclaimers: Although I am a Third Opinion Wikipedian, this is not a Third Opinion in response to the request made at WP:3O, but is merely some personal observations and/or information about your request and/or your dispute.

Comments/Information: First, could we get a definitive list of the places that are in dispute? Second, for those of us who aren't Aussies, are these suburbs legal entities or are they merely neighborhoods with commonly used, but not legally-defined names?

Note to other 3O Wikipedians: I have not yet "taken" this request, removed it from the active request list at the WP:3O page, or otherwise "reserved" it, so please go ahead and opine on it if you care to do so.TRANSPORTERMAN (TALK) 18:57, 5 January 2011 (UTC) Follow up: I've now answered my first question and have taken the 3O request and removed it and removed it from the dispute list on the 3O page. — TRANSPORTERMAN (TALK) 19:50, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

If Suburbs and localities (Australia) is correct, then Victoria has defined official boundaries for its suburbs. If that is the case, then the only issues in determining which suburb a particular place is in is, first, figuring out where it is on the ground and, second, figuring out what to do if the place is partly in one suburb and partly in another. Do you disagree? — TRANSPORTERMAN (TALK) 19:10, 5 January 2011 (UTC) Strikeout by me. — TRANSPORTERMAN (TALK) 19:50, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Searchtool-80%.png Response to Third Opinion Request:
Disclaimers: I am responding to a third opinion request made at WP:3O. I have made no previous edits on Heatherton, Victoria and have no known association with the editors involved in this discussion. The third opinion process (FAQ) is informal and I have no special powers or authority apart from being a fresh pair of eyes. Third opinions are not tiebreakers and should not be "counted" in determining whether or not consensus has been reached. My personal standards for issuing third opinions can be viewed here.

Opinion: The official boundaries of all suburbs in Victoria can be found here with the map for Kingston, which shows the boundaries of the suburbs in that LGA, here. (And Bayside's map is here, if any of the places are in the part of Cheltenham that's in Bayside.) If any of the places in question overlap the boundaries shown in those maps, then there still could be some disagreement over where they should be best listed, or perhaps whether they ought to be listed in both suburbs, but otherwise this should settle the issue.

What's next: Once you've considered this opinion click here to see what happens next.—TRANSPORTERMAN (TALK) 19:50, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

More opinion: If all the places in question are the following, then they're located as follows:

  • Kingston Heath Reserve — wholly within Cheltenham
Agreed (my original error). M1rtyn (talk) 22:00, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
  • The Kingston Heath Golf Club — wholly within Heatherton
Agreed M1rtyn (talk) 22:00, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
  • The Kingston Centre — From its website, it is at the intersection of Kingston and Warrigal Roads, but I can't tell from that, from satellite maps, or from Google street view whether it is on the west side or the east side of Warrigal. If it's on the west, then it's wholly within Cheltenham; if it's on the east, then it's wholly within Heatherton.
The Kingston Centre is on the east side of Warrigal Road. M1rtyn (talk) 22:00, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

and Bob's your uncle, y'all. Best regards from Texas (this one, not this one), TRANSPORTERMAN (TALK) 20:45, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

TransporterMan, thanks for your input; I appreciate you taking the time to review this. M1rtyn (talk) 22:00, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

On the Melway [5] (click on map to enlarge and scroll down), the boundary between the two suburbs is delineated by a thick blue line. From this, it can be seen that Kingston Heath Golf Club and the Kingston Centre are located in Heatherton, while Kingston Heath Reserve is located in Cheltenham. This can be verified on the interactive map and Kingston map on the Victorian Government land services and spatial information website, as already mentioned. Addresses used by landholders are not always "correct", for historical, convenience, prestige or other reasons. One of the best known examples in Melbourne is Network 10 "Nunawading studios" (that they now lease from Global Television) which are, in fact, in present-day Forest Hill. The council, when listing address and contact details for facilities, has most likely use the details as supplied by the facility. Melburnian (talk) 23:02, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

So we have established that the Kingston Heath Golf Club is in Heatherton, Kingston Heath Reserve is in Cheltenham. We havent established where the Kingston Centre is located. I won't give up yet, and also with your above comment, that leaves major rebuttal. I could say that 'basically' Cheltenham places such as DFO or Westfield Southland or Cheltenham Railway station are not actually "part" of Cheltenham, The city council has just marked it wrong. The city council has not marked it wrong, because Kingston being on the same land of the former Moorabbin City council have even put on their site where everything is situated. I have a lot of time in the day, so I will list sites pointing out Kingston Centre's real location.

I underestimated how much time I had :) oops! but anyway, these are 15 sites out of the 230,000 sites, on google when you type in "Kingston Centre Cheltenham". Even if there are a couple of sites that aren't too relevant to the topic...you can most definately say that there are more results when you type 'Kingston Centre Cheltenham" in google, then when you type in "Kingston Centre Heatherton' --(with only 8,500 results).

The Kingston Leader (local newspaper) also knows that the centre is and always has been in Cheltenham. heres an article on the Centre's expansion:

I don't know what other 'proof' you want from me to state that the Kingston Centre is located in Cheltenham.

Thankyou, and yes, I'm sorry we had to go through this, I just believe it is fair that we try and resolve the issue. It's hard letting go of a place in your own suburb Heatherton, but I find it hard as well to know that there is a place that dosent belong in Heatherton, but it belongs in the suburb im from, Cheltenham.

Thankyou. MelbourneStar1 (talk) 08:04, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

The thing is that internet directories, newspapers and health institutions are not authorities on suburb boundaries. We need to look at reliable sources. Names and boundaries are registered by law under the Geographic Place Names Act 1998 and published in the Victorian Government Gazette. The names and boundaries for the City of Kingston were gazetted on 1 July 1999. [22] The current version of the plan that accompanied this registration, as linked to by TransporterMan above, is here Melburnian (talk) 13:42, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Times do change. Last time I checked the Kingston Historical Web page runs with The City of Kingston... the Local Government Area of both Cheltenham and Heatherton. If the City of Kingston says this place is there, then this place must be there, no questions asked. You aren't going to have the LGA's have split opinions of where things are located. They must agree on 1 place, 1 location. Tthe place is located in one suburb, or the other. The Kingston Centre plays an important role in Cheltenham's history, according to the City of Kingston's Historical page. It's interestiong because that long page information telling us how the Kingston Centre came to Cheltenham, does not refer to Heatherton at all, Its just a normal surrounding suburb like Highett, Sandringham, Moorabbin, and Mentone. If the place was built on Heathertons land, It can be mentioned in Heatherton article, but it wasnt. Thanks :) MelbourneStar1 (talk) 07:22, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Oh, I always ask questions :) The historical page is not the place to look as the suburb boundaries were not gazetted until 1999. Since then, the only changes (as listed under the legend on the current version of the gazetted plan linked to above) were gazetted in July 2002.[23] These involved the transfer of parts of Braeside to Waterways and Aspendale Gardens, not affecting Cheltenham or Heatherton. Melburnian (talk) 08:44, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

The Kingston Historical Page has been in works since 1998, it has not stopped. In fact a new article on the website came out just last month. The last time the Kingston Centre article was edited was in 2002. By then if your suburb boundaries were to be true, the Heatherton Location of the centre should have been in effect. Only problem is, it’s not. The Kingston Centre article was last edited around the same time the boundaries were formed, in fact after they were formed. That article does not mention anything about being in Heatherton or on Heatherton land. If I were one of the publishers of the article, or 1 of the 32 sources of the article, I would at least mention that the current location is in Heatherton, if it is the location, which it isn’t :)the title of the article even gives away the real location :) MelbourneStar1 (talk) 04:59, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Irrelevant. The Kingston Historical page is not the authority on official suburb boundaries. These boundaries are gazetted per the law of the State of Victoria under the Geographic Place names Act 1998 [24][25]. "My" Cheltenham /Heatherton boundary (at the point where it is nearest the Kingston Centre) is the official gazetted boundary along Warrigal Road. [26] The question is where is your boundary? Melburnian (talk) 05:43, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

The City of Kingston Historical page, works with the City of Kingston Council web page [27]. City of Kingston is a Local Government Area also known as a council. Whatever you call it, they may not have the power to change suburb boundaries, but when they say, this place is in this suburb, then this place is in this suburb. Until Google results change there articles by saying the location is in Heatherton, or The City of Kingston council says that the location is Heatherton, Or until The Kingston Centre's OWN website says that it's location is in Heatherton not Cheltenham, The Kingston Centre will remain in the article of it's real location, Cheltenham.

And Melburnian, I live in the suburb Cheltenham...you know the suburb that has the Kingston Centre in it. (: MelbourneStar1 (talk) 03:06, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

If you are after confirmation that the Kingston City Council considers that the Kingston Centre is physically located in Heatherton see here. Per the Kingson Community Profile "Heatherton is also the site of the Kingston Centre, a large Aged Care and Rehabilitation hospital". It doesn't get any plainer than that.Melburnian (talk) 03:41, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Wow you must have dug deep to find that. Can you please do the same on the Kingston Centres website too? maybe I missed it being in Heatherton? Good Luck, because I cant find it saying that it is located in Heatherton. Oh and before this is resolved, I have contacted the Kingston City council, We should get an answer by them soon :) MelbourneStar1 (talk) 03:57, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

To access the information from the Kingston website, go to the Demographics profile [28] Click "Census Data (Kingston Community Profile)" In the menu bar on the left place the cursor on "Area selection" and select Heatherton. If you talk to the council, make sure they point you to a reliable souce regarding the centre's physical location (as opposed to the address the centre uses) as Wikipedia does not allow original research. Keep in mind that as you have three editors in disagreement with you. I 'm planning on restoring the removed information on the Kingston Centre to this article per consenus tomorrow (Monday) evening, if someone else doesn't beat me to it.Melburnian (talk) 04:55, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Well you can go on about re-adding the Kingston Centre to Heatherton all you want, because it will still remain on Cheltenham's article reguardless. So how did you go with finding the location on the Kingston Centre's website? were you successful? I think not. And also, its not 3 against one, its 230,000 articles + an editor against 3 :) Do anything else that will sure stir up some problems between editors and me, I will not only remove the Kingston Centre from Heatherton but i'll report you too. thankyou for your time. MelbourneStar1 (talk) 05:08, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Answering the above point-by-point:

  • I have no problem with the Kingston Centre being mentioned in Cheltenham article in terms of its historical association with the development of the suburb and the present-day influence of this institution which doesn't stop at the border. I just shared the concern with the other two editors that the information had been removed from the Heatherton article.
  • The link on the Kingston website is the blue link numbered 27 above.
  • Consensus is formed by editors discussing reliable sources, not Google.
  • See Wikipedia:Civility, Wikipedia:No personal attacks and Consensus Melburnian (talk) 06:18, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for restoring the paragraph. Melburnian (talk) 06:18, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Sorry I got mad at you before...was just a little angry. But with your concerns with Cheltenham mentioning the Kingston Centre, it will be kept exactly what it looks like now. take a look at the article. MelbourneStar1 (talk) 06:33, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Regarding your Cheltenham edit, yes that looks fine as it refers to 1911 context. Maybe you could add "as the Melbourne Benevolent Asylum".Melburnian (talk) 07:42, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanky Melburnian, I will do that :) also, (you dont have to if you dont want to) but do you have an email address that I can send you what I asked the council? Not to change anything, just to show you....thats all :) ?....it's interesting...there's something you didn't know...and something I did't either... MelbourneStar1 (talk) 06:34, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Here's a guide on how you can send an email to another editor. Melburnian (talk) 10:52, 10 January 2011 (UTC)