Talk:Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer

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Good article Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer has been listed as one of the Warfare good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
Date Process Result
February 23, 2014 Peer review Reviewed
February 23, 2014 Good article nominee Listed
April 6, 2014 WikiProject A-class review Approved
Current status: Good article

WikiProject class rating[edit]

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 04:03, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

To Misterbee1966[edit]

Re: this edit. It needs a comma to note a possessive (the record), and it doesn't read fluidly with a comma in it, which is why it was manipulated. As it stands it still needs a comma, regardless of how you want it.

Thanks fixed MisterBee1966 (talk) 07:14, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

I think the comment on Jabs is weak. It is still not clear to me why Jabs disliked him. Is a man like Jabs really going to dislike Schnaufer over this? As his superior he could have easily had him disciplined. Besides, if it had no impact on the unit, or it's conduct of operations, why mention it in the first place? Dapi89 (talk) 11:40, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

?? Well, probably a cultural thing, but taking someones right of way in Germany is a very emotional thing on German roads, coming very close to steeling. It is always considered a deliberate act of severe disrespect. You can ask for right of way, but it must be granted to you by a gesture or words, it is never ever taken. I can imagine that the two had more than a few words over this issue. MisterBee1966 (talk) 07:14, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Sources not used for citations[edit]

I took out a number of sources not used for citations with this edit. For discussions on some of these works, please see:

Please let me know of any concerns. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:41, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

Translations of foreign awards[edit]

Please see the discussion here:

There is no need to include the foreign translation when the English lang term is predominantly used in English lang literature. Moreover, the articles on the awards are provided, so that the interested readers can click on them to get more info, including the translation. K.e.coffman (talk) 17:16, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

@Dapi89: per WP:BRD, please advise. K.e.coffman (talk) 19:21, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
I will restore my edit per BRD since there was no response from the reverting editor. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:01, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
There is no consensus on this, that is quite blatant. It is a dead-heat with three editors (including me) clearly advocating their inclusion (of German words/terms). Dapi89 (talk) 09:22, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── @Dapi89: What is the encyclopedic purpose of including these translations? K.e.coffman (talk) 02:32, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

@Dapi89: Per BRD, please advise. K.e.coffman (talk) 05:25, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

Return fire[edit]

It appears not to be true, as the article claims, that Schnaufer's fighter was only once damaged by a bomber's return fire. Dr Alfred Price, in Battle Over the Reich (Ian Allan, 1973, Appendix F: Recollections of some German Night-Fighter Pilots, p.204), relating Schnaufer's interview with RAF interrogators, notes: 'Schaufer recalled two occasions when a bomber's fire had surprised him; on both occasions the fire had been accurate (perhaps aimed using Village Inn), and he did not attempt to press an attack. On two other occasions his fighter suffered serious damage from return fire, and on many others he landed to find that his aircraft had been holed.'

It's curious that the article, which apparently sets out to glorify Schnaufer, fails to mention the prominent fact that, on the RAF's 'big chop night', the Nuremberg raid of 30-31 March 1944, when 79 bombers were shot down by night fighters (about 10% of 786 dispatched), he failed to gain a single victory. As Martin Middlebrook records in The Nuremberg Raid (Allen Lane 1973, rev edn 1980, pbk Cassell 2000, p.257), 'More than forty excited crews came down at Hanau, woke up the cooks and ordered a huge meal to celebrate the obvious success of their efforts... Also present at Hanau was the leading ace at that time, Hauptmann Schnauffer [sic]. The crews in his Gruppe, from St Trond, had got in among the bombers and scored many victories. Schnauffer had attempted an even earlier interception by flying out to the coast but he had missed the stream and, although he doubled back, he never caught up with the battle. At Hanau, he had to face pilots who had been more successful. "How many aircraft can we congratulate the Hauptmann on shooting down?" Schauffer ruefully had to admit that he had failed to score.'

In fact it is unlikely that more than fifty German night fighters, out of the 200 scrambled, ever did engage the bomber stream that night. Only a quarter to a third of the scrambled force ever made interceptions, and the average German night-fighter pilot scored one kill a year if he was lucky. The few 'Experten' or aces did nearly all the work. About half the RAF losses to night fighters that night were claimed by just fifteen German 'Experten'. Of those fifty interceptors actually engaged in battle, the RAF bombers shot down at least nine (the war diary for one German fighter corps is missing, so it may well have been more). That would be a proportional loss to the fighters of about 18%. It was normal, and not exceptional, for the RAF bombers to out-kill the German fighters as a proportion of the force engaged. On the Peenemunde raid of 17-18 August 1943, only some 30-35 German fighters ever made interceptions, in bright moonlight favouring the defence as at Nuremberg, and they shot down 40 of the 596 bombers, a loss to the RAF of 6.7%. But the bombers in return shot down six of the intercepting fighters, a loss to the Luftwaffe of 17-20%. There's a reason why the RAF never had to stop bombing Germany, there's a reason why Goebbels at least twice referred in his diary to the 'air superiority' enjoyed by RAF night bombers, and there's a reason why it's wrong for Wikipedia to glorify someone like Schnaufer, who was merely a capable and lucky pilot, as if he were an Aryan superman.

The British night-fighter pilot John Cunningham's 20 victories represent a far higher efficiency against the available targets than Schnaufer's 121, bearing in mind the vastly lower sortie rate of German bombers over Britain and the far shorter time that those bombers had to spend in hostile airspace. But you won't find Cunningham's Wiki bio to be quite so... gloating. Khamba Tendal (talk) 19:50, 29 January 2017 (UTC)