Talk:Helen Keller/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

To Do

Expand lead; organize/cleanup reference styles plange 06:32, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Under Formal Education, the first sentence says, "In 1888, Keller attended the college." Since she was born in 1880, this makes her eight years old. Is this right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cyreenik (talk • contribs) 21:30, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Hellen Keller jokes

As a european I do not know much about Hellen Keller humor or jokes, but having found some referencies around the internet I came to Wikipedia to look for more info. Unfortunately there is absolutely no mention of that on the Hellen Keller wikipedia page even if there are tons of results on a google search for Hellen Keller jokes.

I think this is deeply wrong. The way I understand Wikipedia and the NPOV policy this kind of informantion should not be hidden even if they are tasteless and probably insulting to most people. <--- Nuts to that! It's called free speech.NPOV is different from beeing politically correct, it means (to me) reporting those facts or opinion that exist even if I dislike them, even if most people dislike them. Ithink that some not all of the jokes are not funny and should be removed.

Failing to mention popular culture tasteless jokes is not an act of respect, it is bad information. It is probably the worst thing a wikipedian could ever do to Wikipdia.

--Muzzle 13:23, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

I added a line about the jokes based on the info I found on the net. I really wish someone more in the knowledge would check that.

--Muzzle 15:38, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

• You could mention the fact of the jokes, perhaps, but I don't think the actual jokes would be appropriate. I don't really see how it's important anyway. --ShadowPuppet 03:15, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Per the above: You could probably mention the fact of the jokes, but also keep in mind it should be kept tight, as people will try to come in and just dump crude jokes like the ones I just reverted. --Shadow Puppet 22:51, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Jeph Loeb included some when writing Daredevil: Yellow. When some bar thugs taunt the blind attourney with Helen Keller jokes he first humiliates them playing pool and then teaches them a lesson when they attempt to school him in a back alley.

• I'm all for mentioning the jokes, but only stating one as an example, or something along those lines. But at the very least, mention them.

zero one zero zero one! Taco325i 00:47, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

i'm definitely against mentioning Helen Keller jokes on this article. There's no importance to it. Please justify your claim with an RfC. Jokes can be offensive, therefore it's not neutral, unless counter-balanced by another fact, by a reputable source. Wikipedia rules are not just facts (that there are Helen Keller jokes) it's about verifiability. Helen Keller Jokes can be word of mouth, pure original research , or published with copyrights. The article is about Helen Keller , her life, her works, her achievements, etc., and not about what anyone wrote about her (whether joke or not). Although i will consent a link to a Helen Keller joke website if that's your wish. Or write a separate article about Helen Keller jokes.203.76.245.122 19:34, 9 October 2006 (UTC) rebskii

• They are not encyclopedic, and do not belong. Wikibofh_(talk) 19:55, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia. Jokes about a person do not belong here. This is not the place.

I think due to the popularity and prevalence of Hellen Keller jokes, they have even found there way on to NPR multiple times, it would be worthwile to mention that they exists.

I don't think jokes bring much to the article. It definitely seems non-encyclopedic. And of bad taste. Mentioning that South Park made fun of them, for example (not that I know if they did or not) might fit in the article, especially if it raised a controversy. Flammifer 05:51, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I can see both sides ... one option would be to have the jokes discussion be in some other article entirely, and have "Helen Keller jokes" point to that article, while "Helen Keller" points to this one. Thoughts?Lawikitejana 07:26, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

{{editprotected}} This article should mention the jokes but not necessarily tell the jokes themselves. Helen Keller jokes are a major part of the English-speaking world's culture. To not mention them would be to suppress information for the sake of politeness. Most comments here favour mentioning them so thats what we will do. If anyone deletes the mention we will put it back. We will have a REVERT WAR if necessary.

This is what I wrote. Please feel free to comment on this post:

Jokes about Helen Keller are popular in the English-Speaking world. They were a key feature of the book Truly Tasteless Jokes. The jokes are more offensive than funny. The humour arises from the joke-teller having the gall to tell the jokes, as well as the inherent innocence and vulnerability of the butt of the joke (Keller). Most would agree that Helen Keller jokes are in very poor taste.

Umm I think that we should be able to post up anything we want. It's called free speech. Jokes are acceptable. So shut up you retards who think they're not.

                                                           -sexy renee  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.83.112.151 (talk) 19:37, 18 March 2008 (UTC) 

--Jon in California 1 Sep 2007

{{editprotected}} This article is "protected" from being edited. This shows that sensitive, over-protective types are preventing us from even mentioning the jokes, eventhough this discussion page shows most of us think mentioning the jokes is approprate. This is censorship of the wikipedia community and I recomend that we 1) mention the jokes 2) remove the protection and 3) Keep a vigilant eye out for inaproprate vandalism.

--Jon in California 2 September 2007

The jokes discussion here ended almost a year ago. The protection to this page is meant to prevent vandalism, not any particular constructive edits. Further, {{editprotected}} is meant for when you have an explicit edit request. If that is the case, please start a new section at the bottom of this discussion containing the specific edits you are requesting, or create an account and wait a few days for the ability to edit semi-protected pages, like this one. In the meantime, I have disabled the templates you added to this page. Someguy1221 06:08, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

1) The joke discussion is still going on, nothing is ever finalised in wikipedia. 2) I did not create a new section at the bottom of this discussion containing the specific edits I am requesting; the edit I am requesting is mentioned above in the jokes section (I advocate mentioning the jokes, my, the exact words I would like to include are above). 3) It seems to me that the page is 'protected' to prevent mentioning the jokes, not to prevent true vandalism. Many pages get vandalised and they are not protected, the wikipedia community just needs to keep a lookout for it. But most people here want the jokes mentioned while a sensitive minority has managed to put a lock on edits to prevent such a mention. I must strongly object. --Jon in California 3 September 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.127.73.82 (talk) 22:43, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I must admit that I find Helen Keller jokes to be absolutley hysterical but it should be obvious that they do not belong here. Are there George Bush jokes in his article? No. A link to a joke article would be more appropriate. She would have wanted it that way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.29.216.190 (talk) 14:10, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Are there ethnic jokes on the pages describing countries and ethnicities? "N* jokes" and "P* jokes" etc. are also part of popular culture, but I don't see that they have a place on a neutral, informative site. People in the public consciousness often have derogatory jokes made about them that center on particular characteristics, but that doesn't mean those jokes or mention of their existence have any place in an encyclopedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.59.8.10 (talk) 16:45, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

The jokes are Keller's most important cultural legacy. Without the jokes she's just another jew who had a bad vacation in Poland. It's pathetic for Keller bumlicks to sanitize the page to protect their delicate sensibilities. 76.30.115.236 (talk) 01:58, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

• Hey moron, you have your distasteful joke sources wrong. You are thinking about Anne Frank. 208.179.66.68 (talk) 03:56, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Helen Keller in the arts and popular culture

I find this section troubling. It only seems to trivialize the article and Helen Keller. I'd like to see it removed or trimmed down to how she has been represented in movies about her. I really don't see what Family Guy has to do with Helen Keller or how including trivia about Family Guy enhances anyone's understanding of her. Anyone agree? Brian G. Crawford 22:13, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to go ahead and remove the off-topic references. Revert me if you have to. Brian G. Crawford 23:57, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree; thanks for removing them. The only caveat I have is about Helen Keller jokes. These days, sadly, if people are talking about Keller, there's a significant chance they're telling Helen Keller jokes. The sentence on jokes that you removed was unhelpful, and you were right to remove it, but I think in principle that a more thoughtful, encyclopedic mention of these jokes might be appropriate if someone wanted to write it. --Allen 02:15, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

I see it this way. Most people have heard of Helen Keller jokes, and won't be helped or enlightened in any way by reading that they exist. Those that haven't heard a Helen Keller joke don't need to be encouraged to start telling them. Those who have just heard one and are checking here will quickly discover that she was deaf and blind. Then they can decide whether to laugh. I think it's one of those situations where WP:BEANS applies. Mentioning the jokes may encourage people to add them to the article. Brian G. Crawford 03:41, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

I removed the sentence: "Keller has been featured in both TV-cartoons South Park and Family Guy." It seems to me that it's a) not particularly relevant, and b) not particularly true. In both instances, it is not really Keller herself being directly referenced, but the play The Miracle Worker (as performed onstage by actors). I checked, and, yes, this is pointed out in the article about the play, where it is relevant. A bit picky, I know, but still... --Tellybelly 02:48, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

The Story of My Life

The book, The Story of My Life, being a notable autobiography, I think deserves a separate article. I'll probably look into it, feel free to contribute. Brz7 02:01, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Progressive vs. Socialist.

I changed the sentence to read that she supported socialist causes, not progressive. The term "progressive" is a political buzzword that means nothing and, indeed, can be applied to almost anything. Being that a.) She was a member of the Socialist Party and b.) a support of IWW, a Socialist Union, the term socialist is more accurate.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.178.133.197 (talk) 15:25, May 21, 2006

• Do you have a citation? There are a lot of causes that can be considered progressive that weren't socialist. Suffrage comes to mind off the top of my head. Wikibofh_(talk) 15:35, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

• The IWW (Industrial Workers of the World) was (is) more of an anarcho-syndicalist organization than a socialist one. John Elder 09:27, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the original point, that as applied in the US today, progressive is used as a political buzzword: but it doesn't "mean nothing." POV. Suffrage is now not considered socialist, and the IWW may now be considered anarcho-syndicalist, but socialism was generally more acceptable term in the US back then. I think that perhaps the US is unusual as an industrialized country, in that women's suffrage (or universal suffrage) was not connected to socialism. Cuvtixo 01:09, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I re-directed the link...

I redirected the link to Ragnhild Kaata to point to Ragnhild Kåta (which I just wrote -- it's my first article, so any pointers are welcome). The Norwegian letter å is usually transliterated aa on 7-bit systems, but since we're in a brave new unicode world the change seemed appropriate. There's precedence in the Bjørnstjerne Bjørnson article. --TheBjorn 22:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

GA Failed

This is a well-written article, but it needs to have references and citations (which need to be from reliable sources). This article only has a couple of references - and that's just for one section. Also you need to extend your lead section - need to summarize some of her achievements there. Once you've done that feel free to re-nominate the article for WP:GA.--Konstable 09:58, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Socialism

Considering Helen Keller herself wrote so much on socialism, a better presentation on Keller's socialist politics would include her own words, and not some obscure quote from her early life. As a recent biographer noted, "[Helen] was very violent in a lot of her political opinions, and she supported really violent measures."

Removed:

She favored revolutionary socialism, as opposed to the reformist socialism later adopted by the socialist party.

From http://www.btinternet.com/~neuronaut/webtwo_features_keller.htm

The Russian writer, Maxim Gorky, met Helen in 1906 and afterwards wrote: "[She] made an unpleasant, even grim, impression on me. She appeared to be an affected, very temperamental and extremely spoilt girl. She talked about God and how God disapproved of revolution. In general, she reminded me of those blessed and holy nuns and 'pilgrim women' whom I have seen in our villages and convents." Another telling incident was an embarrassing episode when Helen wrote a fairy tale which so enthused her friends that they had it published in a newspaper. The story (about King Frost painting the autumn leaves in bright colours to console people for the coming of winter) seemed especially touching coming from a woman who could not see. But it turned out that Helen had unwittingly retold an old fairy tale she had heard as a child. A sympathetic public was eager to see in Helen a noble mind triumphing against the odds. But the reality was that Helen was so cut off from the world that she found it hard to tell the difference between her memories and her imagination. She had learnt to juggle words, but it is questionable how much understanding lay behind the fine sentiments that so pleased her audiences.

Also take into consideration that it was just a popular idea of the times. Don't emphasize it to the point of POV and nausea. --Shadow Puppet 22:54, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

We have a current Socialist Senator in the USA ... it wasn't just a popular idea "once upon a time." It's an idea that continues to have power and to attract many. John Elder 09:13, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

---

Reverted this page to previous version due to minor vandalism by 165.138.192.9

email message to user avsa

I think the Vetter link from the Helen Keller page is a reasonable contribution.

However, the current wording gives a wrong impression. Helen "lived in her own world" only until the "breakthrough" of communication. The text of the link suggests that this was her normal state.

She toured the country, gave speeches, was aware of events throughout the world, participated in politics and the campaign for human rights. She helped to found the ACLU.

Could the reference to Vetter reflect that being isolated was a very temporary state for her, or at least not give a wrong impression?

thanks,

richard myers

Ok, agree, what would be your suggestion? Hellen keller admitted living in a world quite different from everybody else. See this note she wrote: : www.millicentlibrary.org/ hhr-100.htm . Of course she could be referring to our world also, but my point is that the she and david vetter both lived in our world but experienced it in a unique, form.

Note. Myers, wikipedia etiquette asks you to discuss a page not privately in email, but in wikipedia's talk page. So this way anyone may join the conversation. But feel free to email me if you want to reach me for any reason. --Alexandre Van de Sande 19:05, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Responding...

Here are comments on "The World I Live In", Keller's sequel to her autobiography, from Amazon.com:

(The book) "remains almost completely unknown. Here, responding to skeptics who doubted that a girl who was blind, deaf, and mute almost from birth could find words to describe her experience, Keller presents a striking word-picture of her reality. 'The World I Live In' is an evocative, inspirational, and deeply moving account of an extraordinary woman's keenest impressions."

"she grew to fully embrace her intelligence, her world and her potential . . . wow."

My suggestion for a simple change is simply adding the initial phrase:

"Like Helen in her early life, David Vetter..."

Thanks, Alexandre!

best wishes, richard myers

Amount of vandalism

Why is there so much vandalism on this page? It seems that once a week we have to revert random edits. Do all pages suffer from this, and I'm only seeing it here because I'm watching it? --Lkesteloot 06:30, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thankfully, not all pages get vandalized like this. Some pages seem like dispute or vandal magnets (Surrealism, for example, is a highly contentious page). I would assume that in this case it's because she was a disabled socialist now most often depicted as a moral but apolitical hero (or at least this was so in my childhood). So given the ability issue, the political issue, and the disorientation caused by readers possible expectations combine to incite a lot of vandalism. Hyacinth 07:57, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Indeed, the vandalism is truly pathetic. For those looking for the good in humanity, here's an inspirational story (one of those e-mail forwards, but it looks like it's actually true): Perfection at the Plate. --J. J. 19:53, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I haven't read the "inspirational" story and will not on the basis of the above recommendation. The "good in humanity!" Really! It is the sancrosanctness applied to celebrated people which invites vandalism. "Given the... Disorientation caused by readers possible expectations": True enough but it can be phrased: When a celebrity is placed above criticism, the temptation to ridicule the subject rises exponentially. The more Keller is portrayed as a real, flawed human being, the less people will vandalize. Or at least I hope! More "outrage" doesn't help, anyway. Cuvtixo 00:18, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I lied. The above Snopes.com story has been improved I think (updated Feb 23, 2007) so I don't know if its the same version that J.J. read. Applies a lot more than I thought possible! Cuvtixo 01:35, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

The sentence: "She dated the movie star, Kristen Brosious, and fulfilled her lesbian fantasies." taken down on 10 Jan 2006 due to inability to find a source.

The section "Hellen Keller Deniers" should be removed. I am listening to the podcast in question right now and there's no reasonable assertion that Hellen Keller's story was faked. They simply discuss the possibility that something like that could happen, in a very far fetched manner. The majority of the discussion is based around the fact that Kevin Smith says he can't relate to the idea of not seeing or hearing and yet still being able to conceptualize language related to things you've never directly experienced without a point of reference to your senses. Smith's overall conclusion was that he didn't think it was a hoax and demonstrated a clear lack of complete knowledge about Keller's life apart from the basic idea that she was blind/deaf and learned to communicate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.149.244.108 (talk) 05:58, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Merged History

History of some of the text that was merged into the article now resides at Talk:Helen Keller/Merged. – ABCD 20:38, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The Clerks Guy

Kevin Smith, the fat guy who made the movie Clerks, made a very compelling argument as to why he feels Helen Keller was a hoax on an episode of Smodcast. I feel this information should be included. -Ned Smitty —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.47.43.36 (talk) 00:24, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Honors

What does "daughter" mean in the honors section? Can it be re-worded to something a little more universally understood?

It's a flowery way of saying that she was born in Alabama. I changed that sentence so it could be more easily understood. Bellhalla 06:59, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I have no objection to the rewording of the article on this point, but why would any person reasonably fluent in English not understand the meaning of "native daughter"? John Paul Parks (talk) 14:59, 19 January 2009

Information about U.S. Presidents Needs Clarification

The article states that "Keller met every US President from Grover Cleveland to Lyndon B. Johnson." Since Grover Cleveland served non-consecutive terms as President, it is not clear whether she met President Benjamin Harrison, who served in between the Cleveland terms. Does anyone have any information on this point?

John Paul Parks (talk) 14:58, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Helen is also menchined in "don't trust me" by 3oh!3. It says "ssh girl shut your lips do the Helen Keller and talk with your hips". 'My case is rested don't belive me type in www.google.com lyrics for don't trust me by 3oh!3 and click on any and go down the page and read as your going you will see that i am right. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cassie loves twilight 09 (talk • contribs) 07:42, 26 May 2009 (UTC) 'Bold text

Recent vandalism

This article has been undergoing quite a bit of vandalism recently. I believe the movie is The Miracle Worker.--Dakota ~ ° 01:23, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Spelling

Helen is written once as Hellen in the document. I would update it but am now allowed.

• Thanks. I've fixed it. I'm just tired of constant vandalism, but I regret that it prevented your well intentioned correction. Wikibofh_(talk) 03:12, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

That is quite alright. I understand you must maintain a balance between freedom to alter and freedom to deface. Thank you for updating it so quickly.

thinking intelligibly?

Right now, the article says, "Anne was able to teach Helen to think intelligibly." I know very little about Keller, but is this really true? It seems extreme to say that Keller's thinking was unintelligible before Sullivan's teaching, but if that's how Keller later characterized it, I guess it makes sense to say it that way. --Allen 00:41, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

It's gone now, so it doesn't matter, but the use of "intelligible" in this way is a malapropism. Intelligibility is a characteristic of speech. One cannot "think intelligibly" any more than one can "see loudly". EmmetCaulfield 16:36, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Helen Keller Did Not "Speak Clearly"

While I do not intend to detract from the significant accomplishments that Helen Keller was able to make, it should be pointed out that her "speech" was very difficult to understand. In the late 1920's, Helen Keller visited an elementary school in Detroit, attended by my mother, and Helen Keller "spoke" to the class. According to my mother, she could not be understood. I was able to confirm this when I saw an old newsreel which featured a "speech" by Helen Keller. She would say something, which was completely unintelliglbe, which would then be interpreted by a person standing next to her. It is also claimed that Helen Keller could speak French. I will leave that to the French to decide, but if the manner in which she "spoke" English is any guide, I seriously doubt that she could make herself understood in French. So, again, while I am amazed that a person who is blind and deaf from the age of nineteen months could accomplish anything, let us not delude ourselves about what Helen Keller actually accomplished.

As for the "Frost King" incident, I have read side by side comparisons of her work and the original work, and I think it is obvious that Helen Keller was exposed to the original work at some point.

Her advocacy of socialism is amusing. At worst, it establishes that she was an ingrate. She was totally dependent on the generosity of others for the most basic interaction with the rest of the world, and she would repay that kindness by confiscating their wealth and distributing it to others. How did she suppose that she would maintain her standard of living after that occurred? I will be charitable, however, and state that a person who is blind and deaf is obviously dependent and easily led by others and susceptible to being made an unwitting tool for their pet causes.

While Helen Keller's life is, and ought to be, an inspiration to persons with disabilities far less serious than hers, we must never lose our ability to evaluate a situation realistically and objectively.

John Paul Parks (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

You should consider the idea that she learned to sign in French and I do not believe I have ever seen a quote where Helen was said to speak French well. Mabibliophile (talk) 20:08, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

See Part III. A Supplementary Account of Helen Keller's Life and Education, Including Passages from the Reports and Letters of Her Teacher, Anne Mansfield Sullivan, by John Albert Macy CHAPTER IV. SPEECH, which is contained in "The Story of My Life," by Helen Keller.

Mr. Macy contends that Miss Keller SPOKE French and German as well as English, and claims that she did so well. Alas, I have listened to an old newsreel of Miss Keller's effort to speak English. Her speech could not be understood, and she had an "interpreter" by her side.

John Paul Parks (talk) 14:52, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Some facts to be integrated

Add recently (March 2008) discovered picture http://www.newenglandancestors.org/images_nehgs/helen_kellerlg.jpg from Thaxter P. Spencer Collection, R. Stanton Avery Special Collections, New England Historic Genealogical Society-Boston. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bear1952 (talk • contribs) 02:31, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

These sources[1][2] claim:

• at the age of 36, she took out a marriage license with journalist and her one-time secretary Peter Fagan, but that her parents forcibly removed her from the relationship.
• at her family's urging, she had her eyes surgically removed at age 30, replaced with more cosmetically appealing false eyes.
• she worked for some time on the vaudeville circuit. "In 1919 she began a four-year stretch appearing with Sullivan in vaudeville shows. On her tour, she met such celebrities as Charlie Chaplin, Enrico Caruso, and Harpo Marx."
• she convinced Israel to stop segregating the blind and disband a village set aside for their use.

-- Ds13 16:44, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

The last point interests me. The book "The Radical Lives of Helen Keller" (by Kim E. Nielsen, ISBN 0814758134) reports that Keller (like her friend Alexander Graham Bell) viewed deafness and blindness as terrible conditions that should be eradicated, and both supported eugenics as a means of eradicating them. Keller identified racism, sexism and capitalism as forces of oppression, but saw disability as having purely physiological, and not social causes, and refused to support disability rights. Apparently Keller had been steered away from advocacy for Deaf people by Bell and Michael Anagnos, and had a personal dislike of Deaf culture and sign language. Her support for oralism naturally produced enmity from the Deaf community. Her choice to distance herself from others with disabilities fits with her opposition to segregation of blind people in Israel, and her support for their assimilation into the mainstream. Perhaps some mention of this also belongs in the article? ntennis 06:43, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

if someone wants to make relevant citations from that book, it would be welcome. However, terms like "disability rights" and "eugenics" had a very different meaning in her time, and "Deaf culture" as a concept did not exist. The "Deaf community" was not a united group, congenitally deaf people were rather isolated. And the phrase "the choice to distance herself from others with disabilities fits with..." is opinionated psychological analysis, not encyclopedic material. Cuvtixo 00:00, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

A trivia tidbit, I noticed that this article talks about her Akita Dogs, but makes no reference to her Pit Bull, the US postal service even made a stamp featuring her and her Pit Bull terrier.

Pop culture reference

I removed this addition today:

Keller was also repeatedly referenced in the 2006 cult movie Clerks II by one of the main characters, who confused her with Anne Frank.

This was added to the "portrayals" section, but is not a portrayal. However, it could be added to a trivia/pop culture section if someone wanted to make one. Doctormatt 18:48, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Born deaf blind

She was born blind and deaf; after nineteen months of age she came down with an illness described by doctors as "an acute congestion of the stomach and the brain", which could have possibly been scarlet fever or meningitis. The illness did not last for a particularly long time, but it left her deaf and blind.

This needs to be fixed/reworded - was she born deaf and blind, or did the illness cause it? catParade 23:03, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

"She was not born blind and deaf..." I think you just missed seeing the 'not'. --Doc Tropics ^{Message in a bottle} 23:09, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Sprotect requested

I have requested Semi-protection for this page due to ongoing Anon vandalisms. Many thanks to all the editors who have been watching this page and reverting. --Doc Tropics ^{Message in a bottle} 20:29, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Helen's first speech teacher was Sarah and not Anne

Helen's first speech teacher was Sarah Fuller of the Horace Mann School. Helen began to speak at the age of 10.

references - 1.[ http://www.brailleinstitute.org/Services/AboutHelenKeller.htm] 2.[ http://www.lionsclubs.org/EN/content/vision_services_keller.shtml] 3. [3]

Please correct the article to indicate Sarah as the speech teacher for Helen.

--59.92.149.150 03:03, 5 November 2006 (UTC)regards, Ravi also in her auto biography "the storey of my life" Rhinorulz 21:28, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Stupid Vandals!

I can't belive that stupid vandals, just want to post that stupid joke about her driving a car among other things. You should not make fun of somebody like that!--Hailey 22:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

The alleged jokes can be deleted faster than they can be entered, but if this contiues I will request an Sprotect for the article. Doc Tropics 22:44, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Good, It makes me sad, that people can be that hurtful to others, especally those with disabilites, they also seem to like picking on Max Cleland--Hailey 22:46, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

"It was the beginning of a 49-year-long relationship filled with rape." This appears to be vandalism, so I am deleting it. 70.149.224.195 09:37, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Ah, never mind, someone beat me to it I really love Helen Keller. 70.149.224.195 09:38, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

they don't know what it is like Yeah, how would they feel if they were or knew somebody like that?--Hailey 00:58, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Edit request

from: Biography

Childhood Helen Keller was born at an estate called Ivy Green in Tuscumbia, Alabama, on June 27, 1880, to parents Captain Arthur H. Keller, a former officer of the Confederate Army, and Kate Adams Keller.

to: Biography

Childhood Helen Keller was born at an estate called Ivy Green in Tuscumbia, Alabama, on June 27, 1880, to parents Captain Arthur H. Keller, a former officer of the Confederate Army, and Kate Adams Keller second cousin of Robert E Lee. Rhinorulz 21:25, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I've made the edit per your request. Thryduulf 00:37, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

{{editrestrected}}

helen grandmother was second cousin to robert E. lee not mother.

sorry about the accedent.

Rhinorulz 21:50, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I came across this page as part of my research for a teaching presentation, and thought I would share a few of my other sources.

Here is a quote from Helen Keller's second biography about her life, 'Midstream.' It deals with her reasons for turning to socialism.

"I had once believed that we were all masters of our fate -- that we could mould our lives into any form we pleased. I had overcome deafness and blindness sufficiently to be happy, and I supposed that anyone could come out victorious if he threw himself valiantly into life's struggle. But as I went more and more about the country I learned that I had spoken with assurance on a subject I knew little about. I forgot that I owed my success partly to the advantages of my birth and envrionment. Now, however, I learned that the power to rise in the world is not within the reach of everyone."

Helen Keller, 'Midstream: My Later Life.' New York, Greenwood, 1929, p 156.

She also discusses visiting mill towns, mining towns, and packing towns, with the quote "If I could not see them, I could smell them." ibid, p 101.

A text dealing with Helen Keller's socialism summarizes, in what I think is a useful way, "Kellet's commitment to socialism stemmed from her experience as a disabled person and from her sympathy for others with handicaps. She began by working to symplify the alphabet for the blind, but soon came to realize that to deal solely with blindness was to treat the effect, not thecause. Through research she learned that blindness was not distributed randomly through the population but was concentrated in the lower class. Men who were poor might be blinded in industrial accidents; poor women who became prostitutes faced the additional danger of syphilitic blindness. Thus Keller learned how the social class system contrls people's opportunities in life, sometimes determining even whether they can see." James Loewen, 'Lies My Teacher Told Me,' The New Press, New York, 1995; p 12.

Keller was also a supporter, in the beginning at least, of the Communist nation in Russia. From "Onward, Comrades," an address to the student body at the Rand School of Social Science, New York, Dec 31, 1920: "In the East a new star is risen! With pain and anguish the old order has given birth to the new, and behold in the East a manchild is born! Onward, comrades, all together! Onward to the campfires of Russia! Onward to the coming dawn!" Quite inspiring, if you're into that sort of thing.

Merger request: Frost King

The subject is interesting, but the article isn't well written.

It is too categorical.

It portrays a remarkable individual in a negative light, for which one ought to have significant evidence, if it is to withstand the necessary burden of proof for inclusion in the main article about that person. Yet it isn't well sourced. It offers speculation.

I think if it was merged into the main Helen Keller article, it would magnify one controversial (and disputed?) incident beyond what is reasonable.

I would vote NO on this merge suggestion.

The article as it stands is such a poor addition to the subject of Helen Keller, i look forward to the disappearance of the merge request notice. Richard Myers 21:06, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I was the one who added the merge suggestion. I'm a bit of a newbie, and it's the first merge suggestion I made. I've seen it in other websites besides Wikipedia, though I'm not sure where. Maybe we can shorten it and then merge it here, or vice versa. I am also quite a fan of Helen Keller, and don't want her to be in a negative light, however this did happen in her life. I think it makes more sense to have it here than in a seperate article.--Umalee 18:32, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I am the writer of the original article and a huge Keller/Sullivan fan from early childhood. Just because she and Annie are remarkable individuals doesn't mean that there aren't negative things about what happened. The incident took place as recorded. It's documented in several books. And, in fact, it had a huge impact on Helen's and Annie's lives. It haunted them the rest of their lives. They lost the respect of Michael Anagnos and the goodwill of the Perkins School. Helen lost her ability to engage in what might have been a lucrative activity through the rest of her life (fiction writing), and considering the struggle she and Annie had to earn $ for the rest of their lives, that's a considerable loss right there, besides the enjoyment her readers would have had. People who might have given them money withdrew their support. The Frost King scandal was a major factor in the challenges Helen faced getting her secondary education and going on to college. Annie was already facing a lot of hostility from people who felt that she was sockpuppeting Helen and that the things Helen said and did did not originate with Helen's own ideas but were all instigated or prompted by Annie. --Bluejay Young 07:23, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Why are there no footnotes, no references, in the Frost King article? How would we know where this negative portrayal originates?

The sources I used are mentioned in the text of the Frost King article and in in the "External Links" at bottom; I will add official-type ref-tags to Helen's, Joseph P. Lash's and also Dorothy Herrmann's books on Helen's life. It's all in there. --Bluejay Young 19:03, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I remain very much against this merge. I wouldn't want things that i did at age twelve not only to be dug up and thrown at me as part of a bio of my entire life, but also portrayed in a negative fashion, and entirely unsourced at that. How about you?

Could we please have some more people weigh in? Richard Myers 21:39, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I would vote no on the merger. The The Frost King article currently is incredibly weak, with no citations at all. I suggest improving the Frost King article first, and then reconsider merging into Helen Keller, though I don't particularly see a need for it: note that there is currently a linking paragraph to The Frost King in the Helen Keller article. (Though even that linking paragraph is badly in need of references). Doctormatt 22:12, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't want to have things that I did at age twelve 'dug up and thrown at me', but as Bluejay young has noted, this is exactly what happened during Helen Keller's lifetime. There are several people today who say that essentially Helen was subject to sockpuppeting, and that she never had a mind of her own. However, the other concerns are legit, IMO. I think there's a better chance of the frost kings article being referenced and better written if it were merged into this article, since people are much more likely to search for "Helen Keller" than "The Frost Kings", assuming those people had good intentions and are bold, which they aren't. --Umalee 21:12, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

(They aren't? Huh, I see lots of well-intentioned, bold people here all the time...) Yes, interesting point: the Keller article would be seen, and hopefully improved, by more people. But the suggestion is to add a bad article's content into a good article. This would mean adding unreferenced, volatile material to the article, and this is not what we're supposed to be doing here on WP. That the Frost King article continues to exists as it is is a mark on the whole project. Plus, as I said above, there is information about the Frost King matter in Helen Keller, with a link to The Frost King. Not every biographical scrap has to go in the main article. The more I think about it, the more I vote no on this merger: fix The Frost King, and keep the link to it in the main article. Doctormatt 22:40, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Since the general consensus seems to be no, I will remove the merger tag. --Umalee 02:48, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I would like to see The Frost King improved as a separate article. Adding specific citations would be a good start. And, removing speculation, and also some of the words/expressions that are too categorical. As i indicated above, the article certainly is interesting. But when i read it, i'd like to not feel that someone is trying to convince me of how awful the episode was-- the facts can do that, if they're supported. Richard Myers 04:00, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

As I said, I will put in official type footnote style references if those are what's needed. I put some of my sources in the external links, mentioning others (Joseph Lash, etc.) within the text itself. Is it not all right to quote the speculations of others writing about this subject? These are not my speculations at the end, they are biographer Joseph Lash's. --Bluejay Young 14:44, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

family origins... GErmany or Switzerland?

The page currently says that the Keller family is from Germany, but Keller's autobiography, "The Story of My Life" says that they are from Switzerland. Skittles 06 02:15, 15 March 2007 (UTC)skittles_06

Meshcheryakov reference

According to his biography [4], Alexander Meshcheryakov defended his doctoral dissertation in pedagogical psychology in 1953 at Moscow Defectology Institute. His advisor was Prof. Alexander Luria and the title was "Interruption of collaboration of two signal systems during simple reaction formation in patients with local brain damages." Unmet 02:16, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

correction: Statement about Helen Keller appeared in the second level doctoral dissertation of A. Meshcheryakov (Doctor of Science in Soviet classfication as opposed to a first level dissertation: Candidate of Science - roughly Ph.D). Titled "Deaf-blind Children (psychological development in a process of education)", the dissertation was defended in 1971 at the Moscow Defectology Insitute. Unmet 02:41, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Messy parts

(This page suggests father was of Swiss descent ("decent"), http://www.afb.org/braillebug/askkeller.asp?issueid=200511).

Geez, this is worded badly. It should just be something like:

..., although some sources claim that her father was of Swiss descent.

with a reference.

No need to make this a spelling bee... descent vs decent.

Also... what's with the other funny references? e.g.

The ([5]) Helen Keller Hospital is also dedicated to her.

These have been fixed/changed. Please remember to sign all comments on talk pages with four tildes (~~~~). Also, remember that it takes about as much time to complain about something on Wikipedia as it does to fix it yourself, so dive in, whoever you are! Cheers, Doctormatt 01:56, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Place of death

There seems to be some confusion, around the internet at least, as to where Keller died. As far as I can determine, she died at her house Arcan Ridge, in Easton, Connecticut. This is near Westport, and she apparently had a Westport postal address; as a result, Westport is often reported incorrectly as her place of death. Here are some references:

• http://www.westportnow.com/archives/000857.htm
• http://www.accuracyproject.org/cbe-Keller,Helen.html
• Easton, Connecticut

Doctormatt 19:58, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Radical: This seems like POV

"Keller and her friend Mark Twain were both radicals whose political views have been forgotten or glossed over in their popular perception." This seems like pure opinion. Should this be removed? Timothy Chen Allen 18:57, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I removed it. Doctormatt 01:00, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps it should be rewritten rather than removed. It's all chronicled in Josph P. Lash's and Dorothy Herrmann's biographies about her being a Socialist, NAACP, ACLU and IWW, but I've seen numerous documentaries and several biographies that don't mention it at all or, yes, gloss over it. Her family also tried to hush it up along with her lifelong belief in Swedenborgian spiritualism, and in fact overrode her express instructions in her will in order to hold her funeral in the family's church saying that "she hadn't really been that interested" in Swedenborgianism. --Bluejay Young 06:14, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I took it out since it was uncited. If you can add citations, please go ahead and put it back in. Cheers, Doctormatt 06:37, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Citations were added. Arthurrh (talk) 02:02, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

'Radical' is still POV. The title of this citation only seems to reinforce that notion, and besides, this is not a rewrite. I'd rather see the word itself go unused, or at least then be used as an adjective to a noun describing a certain set of values or a political direction. Radical reformers, could be. Radical libertarians, perhaps. Radical anarchists, I doubt it. But here's the thing: if you want to make the assertion that Keller and Clemens / Twain were 'radical' anything, there should be citations both for the 'radical', by examples of their nonconformity or willingness to go to extreme lengths for their political ideals, as well as for their political direction, by examples of political statements, actions or memberships. The informational content of the word 'radical' by itself is pretty much zero.

Finally, the historicity of this claim should also be taken into account. What made one a 'radical' then may not do so now... and vice versa. As it is, I think the term's just used as a pejorative, is definitely not NPOV, and should be removed. 213.84.246.79 (talk) 21:54, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it's being used as a pejorative here, certainly. More problematically, the article is making an argument here -- or presenting someone else's argument as its own -- that Twain and Keller's political views were censored or sanitized either by or for people who disagreed with them. That's a fairly incendiary argument; while I wouldn't be surprised if it's true to an extent, at least as far as portraying them 'inoffensively' goes (this article provides decent sources on Keller's political activities, which have been left out of many accounts of her life), I think that it might be better if this section described it as 'professor XYZ of blahblahblah argues that...' and presenting any dissenting views we can find rather than having the article state, outright, that Keller and Twain were censored by history. This cites the claim that she was a 'radical' to someone specific, rather than stating it in the article, and would be appropriate if it's a widespread topic of discussion or dispute. Alternatively (and I think I would prefer this), it could be turned into a sourced note at the beginning of the section on her politics, stating (without passing judgement) e.g. "Although most biographies and coverage of Keller's life have focused almost exclusively on the way she overcame her disabilities, she was also active in politics..." This excludes the word 'radical' entirely, leaving it to the reader to read the following description of her politics and decide how radical they were. It also avoids making a judgement on what parts of her life the biographies covered (whereas the current sentence seems to contain an implict judgement that her political views were 'glossed over' deliberately.) --Aquillion (talk) 02:51, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

It is important to point that Helen Keller and Mark Twain were both considered radicals in the socio-political context present in the United States at the beginning of the 20th century. Considering the way socialism was perceived in those decades, their political views have been forgotten or glossed over in popular perception.Alexemanuel (talk) 11:43, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Why is this article locked?

very strange! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vanispay2 (talk • contribs) 00:39, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Polly Thompson

More than forty years ago, I read a biography of Helen Keller--one written for children. That biography had a lot to say about one Polly Thompson (and I'm not sure to the spelling). According to that book, this Polly Thompson came to America from Scotland for a family visit. She got to know Helen Keller and Anne Sullivan, and stayed with them. After Anne Sullivan died, Polly Thompson stayed on with Helen Keller and, according to the book, her "visit" lasted more than forty years. But I've never heard of her anywhere else but that little paperback book.

Anybody else heard of her? I begin to wonder if she was a created character, in a book that read more like a children's story than a biography. 140.147.160.78 (talk) 15:14, 23 November 2007 (UTC)Stephen Kosciesza

See new "Companions" section. Arthurrh (talk) 02:01, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Correct spelling is Polly Thomson. Brooklyn221 (talk) 04:53, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Disabilities

Was she just a deafblind, or was she also mute? Anybody knows? And also we need a section about the jokes because thats what most people know her for. (74.134.124.3 (talk) 19:33, 25 November 2007 (UTC))

I suppose that depends on how one defines "mute." She presumably had all the functioning apparatus to speak. As far as she didn't, it would have been because she couldn't hear to learn spoken language in the usual way--not to mention that she couldn't hear herself. She learned language, of course--several of them. And she did, through great effort, learn to speak--although how well she ever did it, I do not know. 140.147.160.78 (talk) 22:47, 29 November 2007 (UTC)Stephen Kosciesza

Newly Discovered Photo

The newly discovered photo is very likely not in the public domain yet. This photo was taken in July 1888 by an unknown photographer. I presume it was first published in 2008. It's copyright expires the 12/31 after the photo's 120th anniversary. That means it enters the public domain on 1/1/2009. If it was published earlier, its copyright might have lapsed or its copyright might extend longer. If the photographer and his date of death can be determined, then the copyright lasts 70 years past his death, which may have passed or it may be after 1/1/2009. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 05:11, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the photo is in the public domain. This is controlled by the 1976 Copyright Act, which took effect 1/1/1978, and its various amendments to the extent that they took effect at such time to effect the copyright in question. The Copyright Act, as enacted, protected anonymous works like this until the earlier of 75 years from publication or, what matters in this case, 100 years from creation. That 100 years ran out in 1988, so the work went into the public domain on January 1, 1989. in 1998, almost 10 years later, Congress changed this provision to make it 120 years instead of 100, but that did not retroactively resurrect any works that had gone into public domain by expiration of their term. TJRC (talk) 19:44, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Glad to be wrong on this. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 20:21, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

What about private life?

No mention other than she had female companians her whole life. did she ever marry? did she ever have a boyfriend? did she ever go on a date? did she die a virgin? incomplete article if you ask me!

• Be WP:BOLD and improve the article with verifiable information that contributes to the whole. In general, dates of marrage, divorce, or widowhood and the names of her husbands, or the fact she never married, are encyclopedic, but boyfriends, girlfriends, or the lack thereof or statements of her sexuality or lack thereof are not important unless they were part of her public life. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 14:08, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Not sure I 100% agree. There are plenty of articles that talk about who the subject was romantically linked to but never married. (IMHO). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.29.216.190 (talk) 12:33, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

According to her New York Times obituary, Keller wanted to marry a Peter Fagan in 1916. From the article:

Miss Keller, then 36, fell in love with Peter Fagan, a 29-year-old Socialist and newspaperman who was her temporary secretary. The couple took out a marriage license, intending a secret wedding. But a Boston reporter found out about the license, and his witless article on the romance horrified the stern Mrs. Keller, who ordered Mr. Fagan out of the house and broke up the love affair.

"The love which had come, unseen and unexpected, departed with tempest on his wings," Miss Keller wrote in sadness, adding that the love remained with her as "a little island of joy surrounded by dark waters."

For years her spinsterhood was a chief disappointment. "If I could see," she said bitterly, "I would marry first of all."

This was in a darker era, when blindness and dependency could bring an adult under control of another. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 20:17, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

this is a great website to find info about helen keller —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.237.17.6 (talk) 21:03, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

How?

Alright, from what I understand she was born neither deaf nor blind. So how was she able to communicate in a later stage in her life if she had not developed the basic communication skills required by children in order to learn? None of us remember much from the time we were one to five years of age, if anything, so how was she able to communicate without the basic knowledge of speech and sight? I am having trouble understanding this because to learn, one needs to be able to hear or to see to be able to learn basic communication skills. Even if it is brail or if it is sign language, we all need some kind of basic knowledge to build off of it, so how did she do this?

It is the job of the teacher to apply various methodolgies in working with a student in order to help the student reach a level of awareness. Teachers face this challenge all the time, constantly having to teach a pupil that might have no prior knowledge of a subject. Helen Keller was no stranger to learning how to do things nor to word association (she had signs for her mother for instance) so Sullivan had to find a way to use the skill sets already in place. Mabibliophile (talk) 14:16, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

This is a serious question, and I am not trying to offend anyone I just need clarification about this subject. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.63.153.19 (talk) 19:06, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

You seem to be asking for the answer to a philosophical question. This is a biographical article. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 20:05, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

It's a perfectly logical question. What you really want to know is how she acquired language. Helen did lose her hearing before she learned to speak, and the only word she retained was wah-wah, which she stoped using when she learned to spell water, according to her autobiography.

We learn language by being exposed to it repetedly. Helen's mother, then her friend Martha, trained her to recognize the cause and effect between certain actions and results in a cause and effect manner, like you learn to flip a switch to turn on the lights. Anne took the next step and taught her that EVERYTHING has a name by using the mannual alphabet into her hand at every opportunity. Through weeks of repetition Helen realized that all things could be refered to through the same medium of letters. The neurological ability to do this at our level of complexity seems to be one of the defining characteristics of humanity.

In short, Helen learned language just like everyone else did, but was exposed to the words though the medium of touch rather than hearing or sight. Her incredible accomplishments were due to exposure while she was still growing up, interminable patience on the part of her teacher, her incredible intelligence, a knack for languages that she used later to learn Latin and Greek, and her indominable will to let nothing in life get in her way.

Jlfeuerbach (talk) 15:01, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes but how did they teach her language. How did they teach her what the letter A was. or that there are other languages such as french and latin. I have no clue how she would be able to grasp ideas like letters, or political philosophies (she was a socialist) and so forth. When i have asked this question, all i hear from people is that :her teacher worked with her and employed many methods, then she was able to rad and write in several languages and was very accomplished." But how, she would have no background or understanding of what anything is--both physical things in the world and empirical matters. I understand that she laerned what water was, ok easy enough. But how do you teach the word 'the' let alone socialism, or even basic sentence structure. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.210.221.242 (talk) 14:51, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

just a thought, but didn't she eventually learn braille? I mean once she realized that objects and actions were represented through words (by cause and effect spelling it into her hand) she had the tools she needed to learn language. Learning things like Socialism and "the" came after learning basic vocabulary, just like they would for everyone else. It's a gradual process that takes years and years, even for people with no handicaps at all. I'm no expert at all (gleaned all my info from the article) but if she learned to "read" words spelled into her hand, it's not a big step to "read" the bumps that make letters and words in Braille. From there, I'd imagine it would be like any other English class, minus the verbal parts. Some of the contributors on this talk page have contested that she could never speak clearly, despite all her accomplishments. I believe that the capacity to learn never reaches a ceiling, but at some point there are things that are physically impossible because of handicaps. I doubt she had a solid idea of what "blue" was, or what a bird sounds like, but that doesn't keep her from knowing of their existance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.7.17.3 (talk) 15:29, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Helen Keller's Challenge to Lion's Club

Helen Keller came to the Newly founded Lion's Club and Challenged that Club to do what ever was possible to end blindness in the world. That is what the Lion's clubs around the world have been working for ever since. I think a part of this article should mention this (go to Lion's Club International for facts). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.144.34.189 (talk) 13:31, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Restored a removed paragraph

I've restored a paragraph of critical importance to the article, about the sequence of events leading up to Keller's acquisition of sign language [5]. It was removed on June 10 [6]. The paragraph should be sourced more thoroughly (it obviously comes from one or other biography) and the style could use improvement, but it shouldn't just be removed. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 15:59, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Your own description of this paragraph validates the removal I made on June 10th. There are no citations at all and the writing style is, to say the least, not encyclopedic. The paragraph seems to summarize a scene from the play "The Miracle Worker" and needs much revision to make it seem otherwise. The sentence "Anne loved Helen dearly and loved her like she was her child." is exactly the kind of writing that keeps articles like this from attaining higher ratings. The expression "spoiled girl" is totally relative and language like that should be avoided whenever possible unless quoted (and then cited). The reason I took the paragraph out was that, as it is, it does nothing but cheapen the overall article. Helen's breakthrough into understanding deserves much better than this paragraph offers. Mabibliophile (talk) 18:20, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

isolation and The Fairy King

There is no mention of the time that Helen was isolated from her parents in her autobiography. Without another source it should be deleted.

Jlfeuerbach (talk) 14:41, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Correct spelling of Polly Thomson's last name

The last name of Polly Thomson, Helen's companion from 1936 - 1960, is commonly misspelled as Thompson. I'd like to request that "Thompson" be changed to "Thomson" in these sections of the Keller page where Thomson is mentioned. I have edited the text to include the correct spelling. Thank you!

In Section "Companions"

Anne Sullivan stayed as a companion to Helen Keller long after she taught her. Anne married John Macy in 1905, and her health started failing around 1914. Polly Thomson was hired to keep house. She was a young woman from Scotland who didn't have experience with deaf or blind people. She progressed to working as a secretary as well, and eventually became a constant companion to Helen.

After Anne died in 1936, Helen and Polly moved to Connecticut. They travelled worldwide raising funding for the blind. Polly had a stroke in 1957 from which she never fully recovered, and died in 1960.

Winnie Corbally, a nurse who was originally brought in to care for Polly Thomson in 1957, stayed on after Thompson's death and was Keller's companion for the rest of her life. In Section "Later Life"

Keller suffered a series of strokes in 1961 and spent the last years of her life at her home.

On September 14, 1964, President Lyndon B. Johnson awarded Helen Keller the Presidential Medal of Freedom, one of the United States' highest two civilian honors.[14] In 1965 she was elected to the Women's Hall of Fame at the New York World's Fair.[6]

Keller devoted much of her later life to raise funds for the American Foundation for the Blind. She died in her sleep on June 1, 1968, passing away 26 days before her 88th birthday, at her home in Arcan Ridge near Westport, Connecticut. A service was held in her honor at the National Cathedral in Washington, DC and her ashes were placed there next to her constant companions, Anne Sullivan and Polly Thomson.[6]

Thank youBrooklyn221 (talk) 05:26, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Helen Keller

Under "Portrayals" section, this line is duplicated: "She was also the subject of the documentaries Helen Keller in Her Story, narrated by Katharine Cornell, and The Story of Helen Keller, part of the Famous Americans series produced by Hearst Entertainment." --Panagea (talk) 22:40, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Footnotes

When I click on the footnotes there's nothing there. Thelittlegreyman. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thelittlegreyman (talk • contribs) 12:49, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Corrected now. This article has received much abuse in the last week or so, but I think I have sorted out most of the problems. Philip Cross (talk) 21:45, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. It looks fine now. Thelittlegreyman (talk) 19:51, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

info that should be added

People could also learn from Helen Keller's compassion and recommitment to pacifism after her visit to Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1948. Deeply moved by the people she met and what they described to her, she wrote that the experience "scorched a deep scar" in her soul and that she was more than ever determined to fight against "the demons of atomic warfare ... and for peace." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.45.211.144 (talk) 07:10, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

How Did She Vote?

It is beleived that Helen Keller voted, with assistance, by lever. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.162.247.103 (talk) 21:58, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Considering she was a major advocate of women's suffrage I assume she did vote once it passed. She would've definitely needed some assistance so does anyone have any information on how she voted? Did Anne go in the voting booth with her and read off the offices and choices and show her where to mark for the ones she chose? theRealdeal (talk) 20:49, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Duplicate paragraph

{{editsemiprotected}}

In the section "Portrayals of Helen Keller", there's a duplicate paragraph starting with "She was also the subject...". I would remove the second occurrence, but I don't have permission yet.

Adaniels85 (talk) 01:46, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Done, Garion96 (talk) 01:55, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Martha Washington?

There is a reference in the mail article that Ms Keller's main communication partner was Martha Washington. However, the link goes to Ms Marth Washington, the wife of President George Washington, who died 78 years before Ms Keller was born. Can we re-link or remove the link? I'd try it, but I don't know HTML and would only make the page unreadable. :)

Happy Trails!! --Dr. Entropy (talk) 01:56, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Suffragist? I think not.

Please correct the wikipedia page. Helen Keller was NOT a suffragist. In fact this is a direct quote:

"Our democracy is but a name. We vote? What does that mean? It means that we choose between two bodies of real, though not avowed, autocrats. We choose between Tweedledum and Tweedledee....You ask for votes for women. What good can votes do when ten-elevenths of the land of Great Britain belongs to 200,000 and only one-eleventh to the rest of the 40,000,000? Have your men with their millions of votes freed themselves from this injustice?" (Zinn, p.345) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.242.200.73 (talk) 00:42, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to see that info verified. But it is not necessarily a contradiction. Her politics weren't static; she had been a socialist (which is normally understood as a supporter of electoral politics), then became familiar with the IWW's critique of electoral politics. She wrote about that, see the article -- Why I Became an IWW. Richard Myers (talk) 03:45, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

New Play

How can I add the following paragraph to the Potrayals of Helen Keller section?

In 2009, Dr. John Orman wrote Helen Keller Speaks, a dramatic play and reading capturing the social activist views of Helen Keller based on her documented speeches and letters between 1913 to 1919. The play will be first performed on March 14, 2009 at the Regina A. Quick Center for the Arts at Fairfield University with actress January LaVoy playing the role of Helen Keller.

Stagophile (talk) 14:41, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

I am weakly against its inclusion. I'm not sure it is notable enough, and given your uni, it may be COI as well. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 20:58, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

helen keller;

was helen keller a leader? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.187.109.125 (talk) 08:30, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

I think anyone who volunteers to speak in front of audience after audience, and who writes articles to be diseminated encouraging different organization of society, must be considered uncommon. However, her disabilities were also profound, such that leadership in the more traditional sense was an enormous challenge for her. Faced with enormous obstacles, she dared in ways that most would not. She was certainly an activist and a catalyst.

Helen Keller appreciated that some blindness could be avoided if it weren't for poverty, the relentless drive for profits, and the desperation of many women who saw no other recourse in a capitalist economy than to prostitute themselves. She saw these cercumstances not only as regrettable, but avoidable.

Helen was willing to express controversial views for which she was not only vilified and made the brunt of cruel jokes, but also targeted by the FBI. She was courageous, exceptional, remarkable, and far-seeing. In my opinion. If that makes her a leader, then yes, she was a leader. Richard Myers (talk) 12:52, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Poor grammar

In the Companions section the last line reads 'Winnie Corbally, a nurse who was originally brought in to care for Polly Thompson in 1957, stayed on after Thompson's death and was Keller's companion for the rest of her life.' Does her refer to Helen or Winnie? Jonnymbarnes (talk) 09:52, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Trivia removed

I removed this trivia from the portrayal section:

In an episode of the TV series South Park entitled Helen Keller! The Musical (2000), the protagonists have to perform The Miracle Worker as a Thanksgiving play.

I don't think it belongs in a serious bio, but there may be some place for it somewhere... Richard Myers (talk) 01:14, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

• How about at Helen Keller! The Musical? --Dystopos (talk) 23:52, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Michael Anaganos

should read Michael Anagnos see: http://www.pahh.com/zervanos/p12.html Spyro8811 (talk) 21:59, 11 September 2009 (UTC)spyro8811 2009.09.11

Missing Myth Section

This article is missing a section about how the popular believe that Hellen Keller was a myth. I think it belongs here--Caputo32 (talk) 02:08, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Hi, welcome to Wikipedia. We need to be careful about what is included in Wikipedia. Contributed material should be sourced on secondary documents. If there is documentation of this "myth" claim, could you please point it out to us? Richard Myers (talk) 02:21, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

• I understand there is no real documentatio so i suppose your right but there is tons of evidence on how she has become the subject of jokes i think that atleast belongs here . [7]

--Caputo32 (talk) 02:34, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

• I haven't read them myself, but I'm sure both the biographies now listed in the "Further reading" section discuss the more notable contemporary instances of disbelief about her capabilities and criticism of her education and creative output. Some of that is summarized in a June 16, 2003 New Yorker article (link). Certainly those claims can be summarized further for this biographical article. I don't think, however, that Kevin Smith's musings, alluded to above on this page, merit inclusion here as they were not made in a context of serious scholarship. --Dystopos (talk) 23:51, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Edit request from 24.229.198.92, 25 April 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} Iwould like to add category:Americaqn people of English descent because Hellen Keller's mother is the cousin of Robert E. Lee,who is English, so that would make Helen Keller part Englsih.

24.229.198.92 (talk) 03:38, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

I can't find any evidence of this in either this article, or in Robert E. Lee - the latter says that he was born in America.

Requests to edit semi-protected articles must be accompanied by reference(s) to reliable sources - therefore, I'm sorry, I cannot add the category at this time.

I suggest you get an account, then you can help us improve articles more easily. Thanks for your suggestion; if you do find appropriate sources, please reinstate it.  Chzz  ►  08:41, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

 Not done

Suffragette or Suffragist?

A suffragette campaigned violently or disruptively for womens' votes - a suffragist campaigned peacefully and methodically. Judging by the description of her as a pacifist I would guess her campaigning strategy for womens' votes was more suffragist. I've changed this in the article, but feel free to change it back if I'm wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.182.17.217 (talk) 09:58, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

EDIT REQUEST: EARLY CHILDHOOD AND ILLNESS

{{editsemiprotected}}

CURRENT: "Helen Adams Keller was born on a plantation called Ivy Green[3] in Tuscumbia, Alabama, on June 27, 1880, to Captain Arthur H. Keller,[4] a former officer of the Confederate Army, and Kate Adams Keller,[5] a cousin of Robert E. Lee and daughter of Charles W. Adams, a former Confederate general.[6] The Keller family originates from Switzerland.[7]"

PROPOSED CHANGES: Helen Adams Keller was born on June 27, 1880, in Tuscumbia, Alabama. Her family lived on a homestead, Ivy Green, that Helen's grandfather had built decades earlier [1]. Helen's father, Arthur H. Keller, spent many years as an editor for the Tuscumbia North Alabamian and had served as a captain for the Confederate Army [1]. Helen's paternal grandmother was the second cousin of Robert E. Lee [2]. Helen's mother, Kate Adams, was the daughter of Charles Adams. Though originally from Massachusetts, Charles Adams also fought for the Confederate Army during the American Civil War, earning the rank of brigadier-general [2].

Helen's father's lineage can be traced to Casper Keller, a Switzerland native [2]. Coincidentally, one of Helen's Swiss ancestors was the first teacher for the deaf in Zurich [2]. Helen reflects upon this coincidence in her first autobiography, stating "that there is no king who has not had a slave among his ancestors, and no slave who has not had a king among his [3]."

The above citations refer to the following:

[1]: Nielsen, Kim. The Southern Ties of Helen Keller. Journal of Southern History. Volume 73, Issue 4. Nov. 2007

[2]: Herrman, Dorothy; Keller, Helen; Shattuck, Roger. The Story of my Life: The Restored Classic. New York: 2003. Pg 12-14. Retrieved from: http://books.google.com/books?id=qc0CBfqMffUC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

[3]: Herrman, Dorothy; Keller, Helen; Shattuck, Roger. The Story of my Life: The Restored Classic. New York: 2003. Pg 12-13. http://books.google.com/books?id=qc0CBfqMffUC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA12#v=twopage&q&f=true

Jularie187 (talk) 23:48, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

 Done Hope I got everything right! Thanks for the input. Feel free to tell me if I messed anything up! ^Avicenna_sis @ 06:41, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Grammatical Error

In the sixth sentence of the "Political Activities" section of this article, "founded" should be changed to "found."Emilyy632 (talk) 04:17, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Done, thanks. Richard Myers (talk) 05:50, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Article is influenced by the myth of Helen Keller

[[File:While this article a lot of good information about Helen Keller, it misses most of the serious historical truth in favor of the mythical Helen Keller and Anne Sullivan that was portrayed in movies such as "Miracle Worker". I have seen the truth in serious biographies of Helen Keller and Anne Sullivan, although the titles escape me at the moment -- I will come back if I find them.]] Keller's left-wing politics is one departure from the mythical narrative that this page does explain pretty well. But the page should do more. It is true that Sullivan's first task was to tame Helen. It is not true that she had a "big breakthrough in communication". She learned to communicate gradually, just like other children. It is generally true that with communcation comes ideas and thought. One commenter here asks whether Sullivan deserves credit for teaching Helen Keller how to think. Unfortunately, she deserves all too much credit for that.

The hardest part of teaching in general, and teaching impaired children in particular, is separating the teacher from the student. Anne Sullivan didn't do this. On the contrary, she was Helen Keller's main communication link to the outside world for decades, with several important consequences.

First, it was the accidental reason that Keller and Sullivan ever became famous. (It wasn't just because Helen Keller learned to communicate, since after all the Perkins School taught Bridgman and others.) Through Sullivan, Keller appeared to write kind, mature, encouraging letters to other disabled children. These letters were published and made Keller famous. However, they were also coached by Sullivan, and led to false expectations of how much Keller had progressed. Sullivan did not deliberately plan these false expectations -- any written letter from a 10-year-old Helen Keller would have to be coached to some degree -- but she also did not manage them properly.

For example, Keller got in trouble at Perkins for plagiarizing a children's story. She didn't do this intentionally. Rather, it happened because she did not separate her identity from Anne Sullivan; Sullivan had almost certainly read her the story. Unfortunately, Keller and Sullivan did not accept the real explanation, even though the evidence of plagiarism was overwhelming.

Keller had one serious romance in adulthood that was, according to the biography, destroyed by Anne Sullivan. By then, Sullivan couldn't bear to part with Keller; she was also in a position to break off communication.

Keller later wrote an autobiography that many readers find disturbing, again because she didn't separate her own persona from what Sullivan told her.

My recollection is also that Keller never really learned to speak with her voice, although she badly wanted to and worked hard it. The Tadoma method doesn't usually work, as the page for it explains. I remember the comment that Keller would reach down into Sullivan's throat and that it was quite painful for Sullivan.

Greg Kuperberg 23:54, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

• Thanks for taking a look at the article and taking the time to comment. My only concern is to make sure that these assertions are backed up by good citations and avoiding original research. Thanks again for taking the time to comment, and I hope you can continue and work to improve the article.

The book that I read was "Helen Keller: A Life", by Dorothy Herrmann. Nothing that I have in mind is original research; however, my recollection is not quite perfect either. Anne Sullivan did describe the incident with spelling w-a-t-e-r as a breakthrough. Where the article goes wrong is in implying that it was the breakthrough. It meant that Helen understood the concept of a word, but it took a long time after that for her to learn how to make phrases and sentences. There was a long period of baby talk.

Also, it was not just Annie, but also Helen Keller's mother who did not want Helen Keller to marry Peter Fagan.

Anyway, Herrmann's book is an excellent source that would do a great deal to improve this article. (I don't have time to do all of the work myself, but people who are invested in this article should read this source.) For example, here is a quote that explicitly contradicts the Wikipedia page: "Helen Keller's lifelong dream was to learn to speak clearly, a goal she never accomplished despite years of laborious practice." Greg Kuperberg 01:59, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

ahhhmmmfff.....ilove it...i love it... ilove it...ahmffff....el0w phu aqo3h phu aii..j3jemon...!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.54.15.98 (talk) 11:00, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Grammatical Error

A Switzerland Native --> A Swiss Native or A native of Switzerland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.117.174.82 (talk) 20:56, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Worldwide?

I'm sorry to break this to you U.S. based editors, but apart from vague references on the Simpsons she is not a well known figure outside the US, and I suggest the appropriate phrase in the opening paragraph should be changed to 'widely known' or something similar. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.241.190.92 (talk) 20:55, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Legacy

Why is Helen Keller the only deaf/blind/dumb triumpher over their disability I have heard of? There must have been others in the last 100 years surely? Is it that the condition is now dealt with routinely, and is no big deal anymore?

86.189.4.185 (talk) 22:53, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

She is most known because she was the first deafblind person to get a college degree, and the first to become an international activist. Fifty-some years prior to Helen Keller, Laura Bridgman gained a significant education in the English language, but Keller's work as an international activist really is what kept her fame alive long after her death. If you'd like to read about other deafblind people of note, take a look at Alice Betteridge, Theresa Poh Lin Chan, Ragnhild Kåta and Robert Smithdas. Kingturtle = (talk) 14:33, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Gibson

You may want to consider adding that Gibson revisited the material in the 1982 sequel "Monday After the Miracle." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Screensavant (talk • contribs) 15:11, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

How did she communicate?

I agree with the IP above that there's a big gap in the article. After she learned how to "read" words written in the palm of her hand, how did she actually learn how to communicate? The article implies that she could speak but is that really possible? And if she could speak, how did people answer her? Also, could she write? I think it would be interesting to say a bit more about all this. Laurent (talk) 12:13, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

It's not unusual for a deaf person to learn to speak, there are teachers who teach that talent specifically, which is how Keller learned. Czolgolz (talk) 20:14, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

I am thinking the same as Laurent, basically. But yes, speaking would be possible for such a person; from my own assumption people had no way to answer back than to write in the palm of her hand; I assume she at least basically was able to write, as her signature is displayed in the article. Indeed, much of that could much be helped by appropriate development and clarification. Twipley (talk) 00:42, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

File:Helen KellerA.jpg to appear as POTD soon

Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Helen KellerA.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on June 1, 2011. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2011-06-01. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page so Wikipedia doesn't look bad. :) Thanks! howcheng {chat} 16:14, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Picture of the day

Helen Keller (1880–1968) was a deafblind American author, political activist, and lecturer. The story of how Keller's teacher, Anne Sullivan, broke through the isolation imposed by a near complete lack of language, allowing the girl to blossom as she learned to communicate, has become widely known through the dramatic depictions of the play and film The Miracle Worker. A prolific author, Keller was well-traveled, and was outspoken in her opposition to war. A member of the Socialist Party of America and the Industrial Workers of the World, she campaigned for women's suffrage, workers' rights, and socialism, as well as many other leftist causes.Photo: Unknown; Restoration: Lise Broer

Feral?

In the section ‘Portrayals’ it says that a movie portrayed her as being ‘almost feral’ in her early youth? Is there any truth to this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.139.86.103 (talk) 00:40, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't have any source on this other than having watched several of the movies, but i would say that's a fair description of her character's behavior in at least one of the movies. Of course, the behavior changed dramatically as a result of the sudden appreciation of word association (as portrayed in the movie). Cannot say how much of this was dramatic affect, or historic.

(I'm interpreting the question as any truth about whether the movie portrayal was ‘almost feral’. If the question is whether that portrayal is historically accurate, then i don't have a good source handy.) Richard Myers (talk) 21:06, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Helen Keller Boulevard, Tuscaloosa, AL

I wish it was stated also that there is a street named after Helen Keller in Tuscaloosa, AL. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.216.205.22 (talk) 11:34, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Terminology

Sorry to add this to someone elses post, but I am unsure of how to create my own. In the artical you call Helen Handicaped and I think also Disabled. As a person with a disability, I find this highly offensive. Helen was neither of thesethings, yes she may have had a disability, but she was certainly not Handicaped or Disabled. You have used terminology that is soo out of date, it is now offencive to those of us with a disability or know people with a disability. I ask can you please change the articel to the correct termenology, please don't let a well written artical be ruined by lack of education in this area. Thankyou :) Chloeemmahart (talk) 08:32, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Hi Chloe, you posted in exactly the right place, no worries there. I've had a read though the article and changed one instance of handicap - I couldn't find the term Disabled anywhere - let me know if you find anything else you think should be changed :) Failedwizard (talk) 13:51, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

One last picture needed Akita (dog)

Picture of Helen Keller with Akita. Picture of Helen Keller with Akita. There are several others at Google Images. Anybody got one for Commons? 7&6=thirteen (☎) 16:13, 4 October 2011 (UTC)