Talk:Hibari Misora

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Ethnically Korean[edit]

If you type Hibari Misora is Korean in google or yahoo. The two sites will appear and clickopera-Misora Hibari. Both English websites and article replies that Hibari Misora is Korean. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Koreakoreawatch (talkcontribs) 10:23, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't care one way or another whether she was actually ethnically Korean, but I think the WP article should get it right. To that end I did a Google search to try to find other sources on the subject (Nippop itself doesn't cite a source, and while it looks reliable itself, I think news articles and books are usually better). I found this blog post by Momus, some comments here (not a reliable source, but one person claims she was actually ethnically Taiwanese), and probably most importantly, a review of a book called Multiethnic Japan here. Not to say that print sources are automatically more reliable, but... well, what do others watching this page think? Japanese news articles or web pages might be helpful but my Japanese is not good enough to search for them. (Her ethnicity isn't mentioned in the Japanese WP article, as far as I can tell, and (not surprisingly) there doesn't seem to be any mention of it on her official website (the English side at least).) --Galaxiaad 20:57, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Koreans sometimes say that famous Japanese is a Korean. This assertion about Misora is one of them. But this is not fact. Misora was a daughter of Masukiti Kato and Kimie Kato, and Masukiti was drafted WWII ,in those days WWII, the People ethnicly Korea were exempted from draft. Korean mistakes many times about those assertions, or probably they know the assertions are not facts. In Japan Koreans had very high cirme rate esp. in 1950's , and with North Korean problem, etc, many of them live with false name of Japanese until now. This problem will be solved when the North Korea is democratized. Star80
This rumor was advertised by the South Korean when postmortem of her. Her father (Kato Masukichi) and ancestor were farmers with Tochigi_Prefecture. The Korean was not found by her ancestor on August 10, 1989 though the magazine of Japan "Shukan Bunshu" thoroughly investigated this rumor. (This investigation is done to her manager and relative.)
Please look at "Star birth (スター誕生) ISBN:4-06-209817-2" if you want to know reliable evidence. There is a family pedigree of Misora there. She doesn't have Korean people's ancestor. Though it doesn't understand in Edo period --Sir Joestar 10:15, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
The Japanese who has a lot of wonderful talents is insisted on by the Korean that he is Korean. Misora Hibari might be one of the Japanese for whom the Korean yearns. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs) 2007-01-13 02:26:15
The bottom line is that there are sources that say she is Korean. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 03:16, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I erased these links, because References no.2 webpage have so many uncertainty sourse. For example, the webpage said "I'm not sure but,Takuya Kimura and Kazuo Matsui might be Korean." This sentence is extremly uncertainty sourse,also the sentence may gotten a Korean rumor for someone else.In addition, References no.4 webpage have so many bad slangs. If you can read Japanese well, you'll agree my decision. For example..."Sonin is fuckin singer" "Is he has a small c*ck?" "FUCK" These slangs are only 0.1% of the webpage...Kim-Impossible

Here are the 5 recent citations (including the 2 just deleted) which claim Hibari was of Korean descent:
I'm sorry to say that you cannot selectively delete the JoongAng Ilbo article published in Korean, and then keep the JoongAng Ilbo article published on the same day in Japanese. You'd have to delete them both.--Endroit 17:54, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

It introduces the research book on Misora Hibari. It is not being written that Misora Hibari is South Korean in these books.

1.美空ひばり 竹中労 1965年(2005復刻)ちくま文庫 2.戦後、美空ひばりとその時代 本田靖春 1987年 講談社 3.美空ひばり時代を歌う 大下英治 1989年 新潮文庫 4.愛燦燦・ひばり神話の真実 西村克子 1993年 徳間 5.ひばり裕次郎昭和の謎 吉田司 2003年 講談社+α文庫

--Sir Joestar 12:38, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I have to point out - lack of evidence is not opposing evidence. Does that book specifically say that she was not Korean? Or does it just not mention that she was Korean? Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 17:23, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
If it follows the idea of Hong Qi Gong, Koizumi Junichiro and Tezuka Osamu are Korean. They do not say, "I am not South Korean" either. Why cannot the Korean do a reasonable idea? -- 13:12, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Actually, that would be incorrect. Because no sources can be found that claim Koizumi Junichiro or Tezuka Osamu to be ethnic Korean. And if credible sources can be found to make those claims, then we most definitely should include that information in the articles. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 16:48, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone really care about this article?[edit]

If anyone cares: Currently 3/4 of the body of the article is on Misora's death. A heavily-sourced new paragraph has recently been added in order to creat a debate about her ethnicity. There is passing, completely unsourced mention at the top of the article that she may have sang a bit, and appeared in some movies. Is this proper coverage of the life and career of one of the most famous celebrities in post-war Japan? I added a couple filmography references, and I'd work on the article too, but I've got other projects going on here. It does seem to me, though, that anyone who really cared about the subject would work on the article rather than engage in edit-warring. Dekkappai 17:31, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

There was minor edit-warring going on about the Korean thing before, but I think my suggestion to cite sources has maybe caused more harm than good here... I also think that this article should be much longer considering how famous she was... translating from the Japanese article would probably be a good place to start, but my Japanese skills aren't up to it. --Galaxiaad 20:36, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Right, that's my point. There should be a worthwhile article before (if?) this nationality squabbling comes up. She's an interesting subject who deserves a lengthy, well-written article. And this ethnicity debate is just a footnote to the life and career of Misora. (Also, I would hazzard a guess that this sort of constant squabbling does little to make either side look good in the eyes of most native English-readers.) I hope an editor steps up to do some real work on the article. Dekkappai 21:31, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Japanese Sources[edit]

This article claims: "There exists Korean sources as well as English-language non-Korean sources that claim that Hibari Misora was ethnic Korean. However, this claim is not substantiated by any Japanese source."

A couple things trouble me about this last sentence. First, I don't think it's true. I have a Japanese-language source here quoted in Lie's book published in 1992 by Oruta, entitled "Rikidouzan densetsu" (pp. 49-57) in which the author Min-gi Hwang clearly argues that Misora was of Korean descent, as was her husband, the singer-actor Kobayashi Akira. Second, the WP article's sentence, as it reads now, is too sweeping a claim and smacks of original research without a proper citation to back it up.

I would have re-worded the sentence myself, but I want to wait until the editor which placed that sentence into the article has a chance to add a citation. Best, J Readings 09:00, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I think the whole issue is never going to be resolved-- there will be partisans on both sides of the argument who will never let it rest-- and, more importantly, it is almost entirely irrelevant to Misora's life, career and biography. I suggest taking out the whole section, and adding a bit at the beginning of her early life along the lines of "There have been claims and counter-claims that the family was of Korean descent" with citations to the best source linked for both sides of the argument. (I put something like that in earlier, but it was taken out.) Maybe then some significant work can be started on the actual article? Dekkappai 16:28, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Also- it seems to me than a standard encyclopedia article on Misora (as opposed to an article in an encyclopedia specializing in Korea/Japan releations) would mention this issue in a footnote, if at all. Since this paragraph has much more to do with Japan/Korea relations than with Misora's life and career (which should be the focus of this article), maybe this paragraph can be put into a more appropriate article. If there is there one on famous zainichi Koreans, it would be better there than here, I think. Neither Misora nor Korea/Japan relations are in my area of editing interest, however. Just putting in my two-cents worth. Dekkappai 17:50, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
First of all, Hibari's parents are both Japanese. His father got drafted in WWII. In those days, Korean descendants were absolved from draft because of in the early days of annexation. And The people who say she was Korean descendant have never exhibited like that one of particular her ancestor was Korean. So this allegation that she has Korean ancestor has no reason, and many books say no reason that she has korean ancestor. This was one of Probatio diabolica. So who want to say it is true must quote a reason, and if he can't, it should be addressed that it is not true. Many books of earnest attempts of it say she is Japanse and doesn't have Korean ancestors, so it must be written first that it wasn't true, and if new reason will be found, then we should rewrite it. Star80 10:07, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Fortunately (or unfortunately), we are writing an encyclopedia entry. A publicly verifiable Japanese-language source (as well as several English and Korean sources) makes the claim that Hibari Misora was of Korean descent. We can't cover up these sources to promote a POV article or engage in original research to debate the substance of the claims (both are unacceptable to Wikipedia). Debating the actual substance may have its place in other venues, but not here. We are writing an article which is based on secondary sources only, not primary sources. Personally, I am rather indifferent to Misora's nationality, but I take issue with the idea that secondary sources must be removed because a fellow editor disagrees with them. J Readings 11:00, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Obviously, this issue's (probably) never going to be resolved, and more important, it's not our place to attempt to resolve it. Any agreement with my idea of just taking out that whole section and putting in a passing reference to both sides of the article where it mentions her parents? Dekkappai 15:46, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Korean Ancestry: additional reliable source[edit]

A new account keeps deleting an entire section regarding Hibari Misora's alleged Korean ancestory due to vague BLP issues. Hibari Misora is dead, so citing a policy regarding the "Biography of a Living Person" -- what BLP means -- is not going to convince anyone of anything.

That aside, I'm going to put the material back in by adding and adding another reliable source.

  • Foong Woei Wan, "A touch of Korea; Several Japanese personalities have Korean blood coursing through their veins, contends a news report," The Straits Times (Singapore), August 13, 2006.

By labeling it a controversy, we show both sides. That's what we're supposed to do. J Readings (talk) 03:14, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Provide a verifiable reference! Jlone78 (talk) 03:26, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I just did. Verifiable means that you can go to a library and look it up. Alternatively, you can access LexisNexis or Factiva and you could confirm the source. I provided the full citation information above and in the article. Please don't revert again. You've already exceeded your quota for today and you are not discussing anything on these talk pages. Thanks, J Readings (talk) 03:32, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
No that is not a verifiable source, and is hardly reputable if it was. You also made previous edits to the article, yet those edits were dishonest. As you added that her "biographer" concluded she was not Korean, yet that book makes no such statement. So it is easy to assume that you are editing without facts. Jlone78 (talk) 03:37, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Please assume good faith. It's important that you do. In particular, please don't accuse me of "dishonesty," it won't get you very far. Second, you already exceeded your WP:3RR limit for the day, so please be mindful of that. Third, you need to read WP:V. Newspapers and academic books are acceptable. John Lie's Multiethnic Japan is an academic book published by Harvard University Press. The Strait Times is a mainstream newspaper. Both are acceptable. I removed the Asian Wall Street Journal book review, not because it's not a reliable source, but because it's preferable to cite a Harvard University Press publication. Finally, if you disagree with a sentence, just politely talk about it on the talk page with as much evidence as you have. A discussion will come of it. It's not the end of the world. J Readings (talk) 03:55, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
You don't appear to have any desire to improve this article, and seem to be creating an issue for something to do. I have not exceeded any 3RR. As I already told you, read the guide lines regarding references for biographies. Perhaps you would be so kind as to scan the exact paragraph in the book you mentioned, and upload it as a reference? I personally don't believe you have read it. Jlone78 (talk) 04:15, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
"I have not exceeded any 3RR." Excuse me, but you have. Take a look:
The first revert within a 24 hour period was here
The second revert within a 24 hour period was here
The third revert within a 24 hour period was here
The fourth revert within a 24 hour period was here
This kind of behavior is disruptive to Wikipedia, so please don't do that anymore, okay?
Talk about something on the talk page. Don't hurl accusations at people. Don't insult others. And please read the policies and guidelines that pertain to this article. You clearly haven't, otherwise you wouldn't be citing WP:BLP. And again, as I said before, assume good faith. If you continue to insist you've done nothing wrong, I might have to report you (and don't want to do that).
As for John Lie's Multiethnic Japan, you can find what you're looking for see page 66 of Lie's book: "Postwar Japanese popular music is replete with non-Japanese Japanese, and especially Korean Japanese, singers. Miyako and [Hibari] Misora are perhaps the best known, but many teenage idols are Korean Japanese." J Readings (talk) 04:35, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Have you read the policy? [1] It states the 3RR does not apply. Jlone78 (talk) 04:45, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Jlone78, Hibari Misora died on 24 June 1989. The policy was designed for "living persons" -- It cannot effect her "real life" because Hibari Misora is dead! Second, the sources are not "poorly sourced contentious material," especially when they are published by highly reputable sources like the Harvard University Press, The Straits Times, etc. among others. Again, if there's something in particular that you find wrong about how a particular sourced comment is worded in the article (based on the evidence), we can discuss it. That's fine with me. But there's no need to be disruptive by continually deleting the entire passage to make a point. That won't get you very far. Thanks, J Readings (talk) 04:56, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) I would concur with J Readings that BLP policies do not apply as Ms. Misora is long deceased. Per reliable sources the Harvard University Press book and mainstream newspapers would certainly be considered a reliable source. It case it is any help, there are other English language sources that make the same claim, showing that it is both notable for our article and veriable.

  • John Lie, in Koreans in Japan (Ed Sonia Ryane) Routledge (2000) "Although the four heroes of his childhood are Korean Japanese - "Queen" Misora Hibari (singer), "Emperor" Kaneda Masaichi (baseball star), Don" Yanagawa Jiro (a local yakuza boss), and "Japan's brilliant star" Rikidozan (wrestling start)- they are not explicitly identified as being of Korean descent."
  • Mark Anderson in "Encyclopedia of Contemporary Japanese Culture" (Ed Sandra Buckley). (Routledge, 2001) "Indeed, the iconic post-war Enka singer, Misora Hibari, was a resident Korean." (p123) "Significantly, published Japanese and English accounts of Misora's career have so far failed to mention that both she and her family were Korean- Japanese holding Korean passports. It is deeply ironic that the most representative vocalist of the `most Japanese' musical genre turns out to have been Korean-Japanese." (p. 324)
  • Rough Guide to World Music. "Hibari was of Japanese/Korean ancestry" [2]

Jlone78, please stop deleting sourced material and discuss things. You do risk being blocked for {{WP:3RR]] if you continue.--Slp1 (talk) 22:42, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Parents surnames?[edit]

Do Hibari's parents have the same surnames? I'm looking at the "Childhood/Early Life" section of this piece of artwork, and then it says the parents had the same surnames? Did the mom change it after she got married, or did they really happen to bear the same last name? Dasani 21:07, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I have no outside sources at hand right now, but judging from the phrasing, I don't think this should be an issue. Hibari's mother presumably took her husband's name when she married, giving birth to her daughter after having done so; thus, at the time of young Kazue Katō's birth, her parents had the same surname, as most parental couples do all around the world. LordAmeth (talk) 21:38, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
Oh, I see. I'm sorry if it came off as an "issue"; I just wanted to know if they had the same surname or not... Although, like you pointed out, most women do hand over to the husband's surname after they walk down the aisle (or lack thereof, depending on the culture; generally though, they do because a formal entrance is more obvious), however most Japanese and Chinese women tend to enjoy keeping their surnames, I don't know why, but even if they change it, it would say their maiden names (that's what I saw in other Asian celeb articles). Well, thanks. Dasani 21:07, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Number of songs she recorded[edit]

At the beginning of the article it says she recorded 1200 songs, and later it says 1401. Also, some song titles are in italics and translated into English, while others are in quotation marks with romanization of the Japanese. This should be more consistent. Moisejp (talk) 07:11, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Recent Edits[edit]

An IP editor has recently deleted all the information sourced to Mark Anderson's contribution to the Encyclopedia of Contemporary Japanese Culture.[3] The IP claims that the writer is a student, providing this uninformative link as proof [[4]. In fact Mark Anderson is on faculty at the University of Minnesota. [5]. I have restored all the information.--Slp1 (talk) 13:18, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

"Kanashiki Kuchibue"[edit]

The article says this song was featured on a radio program, but it seems it (along with 12-year-old Misora) was actually in a movie of the same name (Kanashiki Kuchibue). I can't check the reference--can whoever added it check their copy of the book, or can someone find another source? --Galaxiaad (talk) 05:43, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Deletions made by 中村ヒトミ[edit]

User:中村ヒトミ has made deletions of sourced content from this article. Per below, s/he seems to argue that this information is sourced because some of the sources cannot be verified on line, that the references given are not objective so shouldn't be included , that sources are based on rumour, and are nonsense.

(copied from 中村ヒトミ's talkpage) "However it is not neutral information. I wrote directly to you, because you add the information to the article no such thing (how is that well referenced?) Another reference says she is Japanese-Korean, which is contradictory to the wikipedia article. Another reference is not acceptable (The Straits Times) because it is not possible to verify. The reference [6] is not objective writing, and says most of Japans entertainment industry is Korean. These references do not say she and her parents were Korean with Korean passports. In addition, the counter-claims do not exist. The Shunkan Bunshun is not an acceptable reference, because it is not possible to verify. The book I read many years ago in university. It has her family tree, which was authorized to printed by her family to show they are of working class people, which is important to her story. There is not a mention about Korean ancestry.

About other misleading information, this time in favor of her; claims such as "living national treasure" and an annual event by television and radio service on her birthday, and that 10 million people voted her song the "greatest Japanese song" via national poll. I do not remember such a thing, and I can not find any information about this from NHK, or official notification. My native language is not English, but I did study English at university and I know it is very good and I can see many sentence problem. Such as the first sentence, it should say "singer and actress" Moreover, I think sentence such as "Her triumph was to be short lived." does not belong in the wikipedia because it is subjective. The words in Korean ancestry are very wrong, such as "matter of dispute" and "assertion" and trying to find information about it is very difficult, with no major sources. The reference of Christine Yano said there was a rumour, which started from a South Korean newspaper reporting on her death; and said she was part Korean. Yano said she does not agree, because there is no evidence. Finding such information from any language is impossible, so I can not understand your edits, or why you say it is well referenced. Especially when the said references say different things, or nothing at all. It is nonsense. 中村ヒトミ (talk) 16:37, 21 June 2009 (UTC)"

I think it is clear that the multiple sources given do indeed verify a neutral sentence stating that her ancestry is questioned by some including several that are indeed available online[7][8][9][10]. Sources do not need to be online to be used (per WP:RS, and our personal opinions about whether information is nonsense are not a factor here. From other reverts of the deletion of similar material over the months, it is clear that other editors agree that this is neutral and encyclopedic. 中村ヒトミ needs to get consensus for the deletion of this well-sourced sourced material before doing it again. S/he is on much stronger ground with regard to the other edits proposed above, and s/he may in fact notice that many of these are in fact no longer in the article. Views of other editors are welcome--Slp1 (talk) 17:15, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Not to dwell on the particular editor, but my one past experience with her shows she has a pattern of removing sourced material, editing from "personal knowledge" and calling other editors "biased" "POV" or "ignorant" if their additions-- sourced or not-- do not correspond to her personal knowledge. This, of course, is entirely opposite to how we are expected to behave as Wikipedia editors, and I encourage the editor to learn how things are done properly here.
About the question of Korean ancestry, I have made my views known here at the past: I think, even if 100% true, it is of trivial importance to a biography of Misora, and deserves, at best, a passing mention. I'll go further and say I don't think this article will ever attain GA much less FA status if it has a whole section heading on such a trivial and nationalist-baiting point. And this is too bad, because Misora is a major subject who deserves a good article. A year or so ago I did check up on a couple of the sources used to back up claims Korean ancestry and was appalled at what I saw-- A university press publication that barely hid an anti-Japanese bias, and made bald assertions of ancestry with no references to evidence of any kind. I do believe the above editor (中村ヒトミ - "Nakamura Hitomi") when she says she's seen Misora's family tree, but we do not accept "I think I read it somewhere..." from any editor as sourcing at an article. The editor needs to find that source and cite it. I believe that since the Korean claims are printed in supposedly "reliable" sources such as university press publications, a passing mention here is justified, if only so show that "so & so" says "such & such". I do think a whole section heading is overkill though.
About the claims "in favor of her" (as if claims of Korean ancestry are anti-Misora?) If they are unsourced, they should go. But-- this is important for the editor to understand-- if they are sourced, then no editor's personal knowledge, or lack thereof trumps a reliable source. Dekkappai (talk) 18:57, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
I think your advice is very wise. Her ancestry clearly is a controversy (just based on the editing here over the years(!) but also based on reliable sources). There are clearly enough reliable sources suggesting that some view her as having Korean ancestry for it to be included as part of her story; as well as the fact that others don't agree at all, of course. [And as a personal note from a Canadian, I find it hard to understand why anybody would care one way or the other... here to have a different heritage is often a subject of pride and celebration. But I digress] But I thoroughly agree that a section on the subject is not required. Why don't you integrate the information as you have suggested.--Slp1 (talk) 22:39, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
Thanks, Slp1. Actually I think I did that at one point. After a mention of her parents, I put something like, "There are claims and counter-claims that her parents were of Korean descent." with two citations-- one each from the best sources on each side of the argument. But that was taken out and put back to something like the current state, and I'm not one to edit-war. (As a side-note for my perspective on the subject: I'm a U.S. European-American who was raised very close with a Japanese family, Japanese language, culture, etc. and have been happily married to a Korean woman for the past decade and a half. I lived in Korea a few years and we visited Japan whenever we could. So I have a great deal of fondness for both sides, and just wish they'd learn to be good neighbors :) Dekkappai (talk) 22:57, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, I agree. I just went to the John Lennon-Yoko Ono "Give Peace a Chance" exhibit at the Montreal Museum of Fine Arts and my ears are still ringing with that song and Imagine and the philosophy there implied. Anyway, I would encourage you to reinstate your edits or a variation thereof; the current version could do with some tweaking but is fairly to the point. I would, however, encourage more than one ref for each side: this seems sufficiently in dispute that covering more than one good reference is needed to convince editors that, yes, this is really is a real point of contention with two legitimate sides.--Slp1 (talk) 01:00, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
BTW here a couple more google accessible refs that seem useful for expanding the article and the first for the Korean thing.[11][12][13]--Slp1 (talk) 02:09, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
Well... the sight of one sentence followed by two dozen footnotes always raises suspicion... How about just one footnote with three or four of the best sources for each side? The footnote could be a series of sentences, "So & so in ABC (2007) says, "such & such". This is the kind of editing I like best to avoid, but I'll think of a way to put such a citation together later on unless someone else beats me to it. Dekkappai (talk) 04:29, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
  1. REDIRECT get die all of u die die die die die die





  1. REDIRECT 犯人は........ —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 13:35, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

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