Talk:Hillsborough, County Down

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Hillsborough former Borough Council building[edit]

The opening par states:

the former civic building of Lisburn Borough Council has been converted to residential use.

I was in Hillsborough today and it looks derelict to me. Peter Clarke (talk) 14:44, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

There is a lot of newbuild housing behind it, they are in the process of converting it.Traditional unionist (talk) 14:46, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

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Irish Language name for area known in English as "Hillsborough" and Request for Discussion[edit]

At 17:24, on 21 January 2017‎ an unregistered user deleted the Irish Language name for Hillsborough giving as their reason: "there is no irish name for Hillsborough as the name is english , cromlighn refers to a glen that was there nearly 500 years ago"

At 18:13, on 22 January 2017 I undid this edit, as I knew this view to be incorrect, and that Hillsborough, like many, in fact most, places in Ireland, has two names, one in English one in Irish. Sometimes the Irish version of the name and the English version are related as translations, sometimes, essentially as transliterations, somtimes, as in this case they bear no relation at all, other than referring to the same area. (The glen referred to by the way, is still there, it is within the grounds of Hillsborough Castle.)

On 25 January 2017, the same IP address reversed my undo giving as their reason: "There is no irish name for Hillsborough, the irish is a description carried to a townland it is not a translation of its Name as there isnt one"

Which I think indicates some misunderstanding as to how placenames in Ireland work, and how it is usual to have two seperate names for each place, in English and Irish. In the case of Hillsborough it is actually the Wikipedia entry itself explains the situation in the "history" section which for convenience I quote here:

QUOTE History "Before 1661, the townland was known as Crumlin or Cromlin (from Irish Cromghlinn, meaning 'crooked glen'). By 1661 the townland and the settlement within it had been renamed Hillsborough........ It was named after Sir Arthur Hill, who built Hillsborough Fort in 1650 to command the road from Dublin to Carrickfergus. The Hill family became the Earls of Hillsborough, then Marquises of Downshire." END QUOTE

So I shall now, relying on this part of the article, which as the history of the page will indicate was not written by me, reinstate the Irish language version of the name in the info box. After I have done this I would ask that this edit not be reversed without further discussion here. I would, mindful of the guidelines on edit warring ask other editors to have a look at this, if it becomes a point of contention. For the same reason I will hold back on doing the edit for a day or so, to see what other people have to say.

Daithidebarra (talk) 23:30, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

Accordingly on 17:00, 27 January 2017‎ I reverted a second time. In the edit summary I wrote : "Do not revert again without entering into discussion on article talk page first."

However on the 11:37, 2 February 2017 the same ip reverted for a second time, without entering into the requested discussion and in their edit summary stated:

" once again somebody with an ulterior motive is ignoring facts , there is no irish name for Hillsborough, the term cromlin referes to a description of a townland before 1661 and not the town of Hillsborough , there is no irish translation of Hillsborough"

This seems to me to raise two issues, a failure to discuss, and in the reference to my alleged "ulterior motives" some incivility. Perhaps in the heat of the moment.

In my previous posting on the article's talk page (of which this is a continuation) I addressed the substantive point raised in the summary by explaining that the Irish Language name for a place in Ireland need not be, and often is not, a translation of the English name, or indeed the other way about which would be rather more usual.

I am now going to place a formal request for discussion on this unregistered user's talk page. Obviously I would welcome input from other editors especially as the formal "Request for discussion" is new to me.

Daithidebarra (talk) 18:34, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Also worth looking at this article on Wikipedia:

Place names in Ireland

Daithidebarra (talk) 16:29, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

It is clear from the available sources (literary texts, folklore collections, interviews) that Irish speakers throughout Ireland continued to use Gaelic place-names even after the imposition of English (or Norse) names on those places. This occurred even after the addition of new features to the landscape, such as towns or forts. In areas adjacent to Hillsborough (Clonduff, Hilltown, etc.) there were still many Irish speakers in the 1890s, and a few as late as the 1940s (see E.E. Evans, Mourne County, 1951, R.L. Praeger, The Way that I Went, 1937). To support the argument that Hillsborough is a "new" place one would have to supply evidence that the name Cromghlinn had ceased to be used by those speakers for that locality. One would not, of course, expect Hillsborough to be "translated" into Irish. Rather one would expect the familiar Irish/English pairing, as in Baile Átha Cliath/Dublin.

Colin Ryan (talk) 22:50, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

As an editor has worked heavily in this topic area (place names in NI) and the relecant policies on it on this site I will state the following:
  • The history of the place does not matter. Just because it once had an Irish name does not mean that that name is still used, in fact some places have a different Irish name used today. Instead such information belongs in a history or name section.
  • The infobox entry is for Irish and/or Scots names for a place that are used in the present-day preferably with a reliable source, such as government bodies.
  • In regards to this article, yes the area of Hillsborough was once called Crumlin from the Irish Cromghlinn. Is Cromghlinn still regarded as the "official" Irish name for Hillsborough? Yes. ::According to [1], which is from the Irish government backed body responsible for providing what can be regarded as the official Irish names for places.
How does that impact here? Well, as Hillsborough derives obviously from English, WP:IMOS tells us it definitely doesn't belong in the article intro. It does however according to IMOS belong to the parameter in question in the infobox. It should also be sourced and i provided a source above. Thus the IP is in the wrong and continued disruption should be reported and sanctions proposed. Mabuska (talk) 17:52, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

I am grateful to Colin Ryan and Mabuska for their comments, from which I have learnt. In the meantime the edit which led to the formal "request for discussion" (the deletion of Irish language name for Hillsborough) remains reverted by Mabuska, so you could say point moot BUT I have still( following the IP editor's continued failure to respond to the request) and even though they have not reversed the edit either, well, I have put in a second formal request for discussion. This is to put the issue of whether or not an opportunity for discussion was offered beyond doubt. Which, I suppose, would be further support for Mabuska's diagnosis of disruptive editing were the IP editor to continue to act without discussion. Daithidebarra (talk) 13:36, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

Thank you. At present I'd say let the issue be for now as everything follows guidelines and the common manual of style for NI articles. If the IP decides to continue being disruptive despite your attempts to engage them in discussion and the notification of the policies on this issue and the warning I gave to cease their disruption, they will be reported to AN/I where they will most likely receive a block for a set period of time. Mabuska (talk) 14:55, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

Same ip has reverted again, today, deleting Irish language name, this time characterising the Irish language as "defunct". They have now ignored two formal requests for discussion and continue to revert. I have undone their edit and so re instated Irish Version of name.

Daithidebarra (talk) 15:55, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

I have issued them a final warning so that due process has been done before reporting to AN/I. There are rules on edit-warring and a 1 revert a day per editor limitation for anything construed as Troubles related, which this issue is, however an exemption is made for disruptive IP edits and as the IP has refused discussion and ignored the evidence and Wikipedia guidelines and agreements on the issue, there are no limitations. Mabuska (talk) 22:45, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

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