Talk:Hillsborough disaster

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Mention of Heysel[edit]

It is generally uncontroversial and accepted that the Heysel disaster of 1985 was largely caused by some Liverpool supporters, and this led to a ban on British football clubs playing in Europe that was still in place at the time of the Hillsborough disaster. Further, it was partly responsible for much of the initial blame placed upon Liverpool supporters at Hillsborough and the suggestion of hooliganism in particular. Despite this, the only real mention of this in the article is in a brief explanation of the controversial remarks made by Jacques Georges. Should the Heysel disaster, both its causes and consequences for British football, be addressed properly, but succinctly, in the article, possibly in the section ‘Before the disaster’? (talk) 01:07, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Can it be verified that "it was partly responsible for much of the initial blame..."? If we could cite sources then we might include it but otherwise it would be excluded as editorial theorising and speculation. NebY (talk) 11:22, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
No, not unless reliable secondary sources have written an analysis showing the connection with this article (hint: there is no underlying connection, so that's not going to happen). Johnuniq (talk) 11:48, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
I have found two references on the BBC website after a very simple search:
"A wave of hooliganism, with the Heysel incident of 1985 perhaps the most sickening episode, was justification enough for many who wanted to see football fans closely controlled. ... The 1989 image of football fans as scum - anti-social, violent young men who'd drunk too much - perhaps goes some way to explain the egregious behaviour of some of the emergency services and others after Hillsborough." [1]
"The prime minister was informed that a senior member of the Merseyside Police directly blamed supporters: "One officer, born and bred in Liverpool, said that he was deeply ashamed to say that it was drunken Liverpool fans who had caused this disaster, just as they had caused the deaths at Heysel."" [2]
I am sure there are many more if one takes the time to look further. (talk) 23:12, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

There is an inquest in progress. The Attorney General has issued wide ranging guidelines about commenting online. . The thrust of this discussion is in danger of running foul of that directive. (talk) 17:15, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

"Should the Heysel disaster, both its causes and consequences for British football, be addressed properly, but succinctly...". Yes. Per 86.133's two examples, Heysel clearly formed part of the context in which Hillsborough was and has been considered. Many wikipedia articles lack context; those which include it are very much richer reading experiences. --Tagishsimon (talk) 17:39, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

It's an act of excessive simplification to isolate the behaviour of Liverpool supporters when discussing the English football ban. Hooliganism was a problem across the entire country for a lengthy period of time. Margaret Thatcher called it the "English disease", not the Liverpool disease. The steel fencing at Hillsborough stadium was erected long before 1985. The history of hooliganism is considerable and involves many different clubs; far beyond English boarders, even. We already have a paragraph in the section titled Before the disaster that summarises the situation as it stood in 1985:
"At the time of the disaster, most English football stadiums had high steel fencing between the spectators and the playing field in response to both friendly and hostile pitch invasions. Hooliganism had affected the sport for some years, and was particularly virulent in England. From 1974, when these security standards were put in place, crushes occurred in several English stadiums."
As I remarked previously, the Heysel incident is more relevant in providing the context for Police deception and obfuscation. It allowed senior officers to brush aside the previous overcrowding incidents at Hillsborough stadium and instead promote a fictitious narrative that there was something uniquely abhorrent about Liverpool fans (even when the club attracted broad support from across the nation, and a sad irony that a number of people who lost their lives that day didn't even come from Merseyside). Yet the tactic was successful for many years, and crops up occasionally even today. — TPX 23:28, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Length of the lead[edit]

The current lead is longer than usual, with three paragraphs to explain the disaster and three to explain subsequent developments. Should the final three paragraphs be shortened and possibly reduced to one or two paragraphs? (talk) 01:07, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

There's a draft at the end of this discussion which looks good at first glance, but I still haven't got round to checking it against he existing lede and body. Could you do that? NebY (talk) 11:17, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
The draft there seems to change a lot in the first three paragraphs. How about this [3] instead? (talk) 23:00, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Human Stampede link at bottom of page[edit]

The link to 'human stampede' at the bottom of this page needs to be removed. Hillsborough was NOT a human stampede - the Hillsborough Independent Report has proven this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lynnefox (talkcontribs) 19:08, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

You can edit this yourself, be bold! Note though that the list at the bottom is a template so removing that template from this article won't removed the link to here in that template. Talk pages for the template and other articles/categories that list Hillsborough as a "human stampede": Template talk:Human stampedes; Talk:Stampede; Talk:List of human stampedes; and Category talk:Human stampedes in the United Kingdom.
For what it's worth, they seem to be categorising any event where the weight of crowd numbers leads to death or injury as a stampede - and Hillsborough seems to fit this definition (it doesn't necessarily imply the crowd was at fault, either, merely that the pressure of numbers caused a problem). Probably worth starting some discussion on those talk pages, or maybe start a discussion at Wikipedia:WikiProject Disaster management and then linking to it on the talk pages. (talk) 20:21, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
I see you've already left a comment on Talk:Stampede. However if you reply to a very old comment (from 2008 in this case) the chances are that nobody will read it. If you want to raise discussions before making changes, start a new subject. And you're more likely to get some discussion if you mention it to a WikiProject (like the one linked above).
Alternatively, just be bold and make the changes yourself (leaving a message on the talk page of someone who left a comment in 2008 and requesting they make an edit that you could make yourself is definitely not the way to do it). If you do edit the articles, have a read of WP:BRD and be prepared for some discussion. Also, it's worth reading WP:SIG - signing your posts is easy and makes the discussion easier to follow. (talk) 20:37, 20 March 2015 (UTC)