Talk:Hip hop (culture)/Archive 2

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Archive 5

Moved from article

(to the editors)- i saw that you have erased my addition to this article. i am a Bboy from Jerusalem and to me hiphop is my whole life and i made it as such because i believe that through hiphop i will be able to bring positive change to the world. you cannot have an article about the hip hop culture without one word on it's values, it's goals, the mindset of those who practice the hiphop arts, and especially you cannot have a whole article about hiphop without one word about the CYPHERS. without cyphers there is no hiphop. so if my addition was not acedemic enough for this website, than please ask a more well known B-boy (Crumbs, Remind, Ken Swift, Crazy Legs, Born, Machine, ATA, anyone who you deem to be famous enough so that they can enter a quote here) because the B-boys nowadays are the ones who continue to live real hiphop and all that is written here has been written by people who are not a part of the culture. this is clear because there doesn't appear even one word as to what hip hop REALLY is and what it STANDS FOR.

Peace

Bboy Rethink, TRuClaN, Jerusalem

{Originally posted by 213.8.6.227 in article, moved by Apparition¹¹|^Complaints/Mistakes 20:07, 23 December 2008 (UTC))

Merger

I highly recommend that the article at Hip hop music be used as the basis for the new article, not the one currently located here. Since Hip Hop is mainly about the music, the music article should be the base. Zazaban (talk) 01:36, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I highly recommend the opposite; the hip hop music article has only 20 references while the hip hop article has 3 times as many. Hip hop music should be simply redirected.Cosprings (talk) 00:23, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but the setup for the other article is much better. This article is basically not about a musical genre, but the subculture that surrounds a musical genre. If we keep this version will will have no article about the musical genre, but one about the subculture that surrounds it. That's extremely odd. Zazaban (talk) 05:47, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

And that is the reason why the best solution is to have "Hip Hop" as a disambiguation page pointing to the various related articles, and one article title "Hip Hop (music)" and one titled "Hip Hop (culture)." Let's be clear--Hip Hop is a mess--an opinion-pushing one at that--number of citations notwithstanding (don't blame the messenger). One of many reasons that it is a mess, respectfully, is because when editors who believe (in good faith) that "there should only be one hip hop article" choose to delete or redirect hip hop-related articles, they find that there is a need to merge the relevant info from the page that they deleted. This balloons the article in size, and shows only one of the reasons that the article should be broken up, per WP:SPLIT. This is no more unusual than featured article Punk rock having split into Punk subculture and Punk ideologies, among others. -RoBoTam^ice 16:01, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

No, you've said all this before and I disagreed strongly with you then as I do now. First of all, don't do it just because that's the way punk did it. Second, No one wants to put "hip hop" into wikipedia and get directed to a disambiguation page, most newbies won't even understand what that is. They want to instantly be directed to an all-encompassing summary of the genre/culture. There should only be one article on hip hop, and not even a hip hop music article, because there already roots of hip hop, old school, new school and golden age articles. That's not one article, that's 4 historical periods plus the main article. The main article as it is is very well sourced, though a refimprove tag would definitely improve things. I am sure most people would agree with what I've just said.Cosprings (talk) 16:06, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

My friend, the problem is that they didn't/don't agree with everything you just said. The "no ones" that you speak ofhave reached consensus several times on exactly the opposite tack. Your opinion on disambiguation pages is respected, but may reflect a misunderstanding of wikipolicy at Wikipedia:Disambiguation. There is no argument that the word "Hip Hop" reflects both a style of music and a subculture. However, the ongoing argument, of which your opinion is a part, centers on whether the music or culture is the primary topic (as you and Zazaban have engaged in above). Luckily for us, Wikipolicy addresses this situation at WP:PRIMARYTOPIC:

"If there is extended discussion about which article truly is the primary topic, that may be a sign that there is in fact no primary topic, and that the disambiguation page should be located at the plain title with no "(disambiguation)".

Thoughts? -RoBoTam^ice 16:32, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

The discussion is not about which is primary, but whether or not hip hop music should exist at all. So that excerpt is not relevant. You want a disamg for only two articles? Just merge them and all efforts will be centralized, not defracted as would happen with two articles that basically cover the same things.Cosprings (talk) 16:44, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

You certainly have a right to your opinion concerning relevance, as well as your opinion of what "no one" wants to read. Like some, you may feel that hip hop music and culture are "basically" the same thing, but others have a different take, and there is a logical argument to back that premise up. While you, among others, argue that they "cover the same things," the relevant material that is cut and pasted when the articles are joined balloon the article to the point that Wikipedia:SPLIT becomes relevant. Since you were "present" at the prior discussion, you already know that the purpose of a disambig page would be to centralize, not defract the the hip hop topics, to include music, culture, fashion, etc. Regarding your comments about the Punk Rock page...well, while I certainly appreciate the sentiment of "don't do it just because that's the way punk did it," Punk Rock is a Featured Article, while Hip Hop was a Featured Article, so maybe there is something that can be gleaned from that article after all. -RoBoTam^ice 20:16, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Hip hop music was a featured article in January 2005 when it featured ZERO citations, only a list of a references. As it is now, hip hop is much better.Cosprings (talk) 23:26, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

As stated before, your opinion is respected. -RoBoTam^ice 02:32, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Why are we even arguing? Hip hop is the term used for a genre of music. It is also the word for the culture consisting of four elements (djing, mcing, bboying, and graffitti). Just make a disambiguation page. It is illogical to have one article for two seperate things.76.105.7.183 (talk) 06:09, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree. -RoBoTam^ice 13:51, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Yea, I don't trust IP addresses. This anonymous user should not be considered for voting. In any event, "hip hop genre" and the "rest" of hip hop are not the two different things, they are exactly the same thing. Cosprings (talk) 15:19, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

If you have reason to believe they are a sock, I suppose you could spark an investigation, although you should probably assume good faith, especially since they have a clear history of editing hip hop articles with no complaints or warnings (This isn't a vote, by the way). Again, your opinion is respected, even if it is disagreed with (or not in the majority, for that matter. -RoBoTam^ice 19:00, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Robotam, if you respect my opinion, how can you disagree so steadfastly? And how can you facetiously assert that my opinion is "not in the majority"? How can you believe that anyone who types in "hip hop" into wk wants to a see a disambiguation page? How can you believe that hip hop music and hip hop culture are separate things? Do you ever hear about people who are hip hop music fans but not hip hop culture fans? It is absolutely absurd. They are exactly the same thing.Cosprings (talk) 19:25, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

(1) Because, talk radio culture notwithstanding, editors can actually disagree, yet have the decency to respect the opinion of those on the other side of a discussion. (2) Not facetious at all. I would direct you to previous discussions you were involved in on the topic of a disambig page, where you were in the minority. Hey, it happens. (3) not trying to be "facetious" but...because, as above, they said so? (4) In the same way that I believe that New York City and New York State are seperate things. One being an element of the other does not make them the same. (3) All the time. Just like there were/are B-Boy dancers that don't like rap. The culture is based around the music, but is not solely comprised of the music, and that is why, in my opinion, your point of view is found wanting. -RoBoTam^ice 21:04, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

"...Just like there were/are B-boy dancers that don't like rap..." And graffiti artists that don't like either. When we frame it like this it's merely anecdotal, but fact nonetheless. B-boy dancing and graffiti both predated rap and the hip-hop moniker, and this concept of a hip-hop culture was largely and solely invented by Afrika Bambatta (his motives are another topic altogether). Dancing and street art are so universal that for any one culture to appropriate either is inane at best and intellectually damaging at worst. I came to this page thinking about writing an addition about this very topic; "culture" is not a concrete thing and clearly not something that can be created or even observed in the present, it's a thing that historians look back on and deduce and even then it's an abstract science. In many (if not all?) wiki pages about various "cultures" both broad and specific there is information about what insiders believe defines the culture, what outside observers believe defines the culture, and the level of difficulty in anybody clearly defining the culture. (Consider the task of attempting to define what precisely "American culture" is, or the task of explaining the difference between a Tutsi and a Hutu, or the task of explaining what a "wigger" is: "A wigger is a white person that adopts black culture." "Ok, what parts of black culture?" "The person wears baggy clothes." "So wearing baggy clothes is part of black culture?" "Um.. Ok, the person listens to rap music." "Likwise, listening to rap music is a defining characteristic of black culture?" "Um... I think i'm in over my head.") I found it odd that the "hip-hop culture" page didn't address any of this and instead stated things so empirically and concretely. I'm a noob when it comes to actually editing and contributing to wikipedia so I figured I'd just post a response hear and see if I get any feedback. ----SoA (no account)

Duplications

The following paragraph has repeated twice in the article:

Though born in the United States, the reach of hip hop is global. Youth culture and opinion is meted out in both Israeli hip hop and Palestinian hip hop, while France, Germany, the U.K., Evan Mathews pants A.K.A. Africa (cause of his giant dick) and the Caribbean have long-established hip hop followings. According to the U.S. Department of State, hip hop is "now the center of a mega music and fashion industry around the world", that crosses social barriers and cuts across racial lines.[35] National Geographic recognizes hip hop as "the world's favorite youth culture" in which "just about every country on the planet seems to have developed its own local rap scene."[36] 79.74.128.62 (talk) 21:11, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Removed lines flagged with "citation needed"

I've removed the following lines, that have "citation needed" flag for 6 or more month and look like untrue:

• The term "hip hop" also followed logically the previous African-American music culture of "Bebop".

--Appletangerine un (talk) 12:14, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Lede

I removed the drivel about 'artistic commitments' and similar tripe from the lede. It is uncited, highly politicised, factually dubious, and was inserted seemingly randomly in the middle of a number of vandalism reverts, thus evading the normal detection process for weeding out gobbledygook of this sort. --86.177.180.159 (talk) 02:25, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

MCing/rapping

Are MCing and rapping synonymous? Rapping is one way to be an MC, but toasting and generally chanting or yelling things into the mic to get the crowd going is MCing as well, having said that, writing elaborate verses to match a beat on a record isn't really MCing, is it? Dubstep, dancehall, jungle and dub are other examples of music styles that employ MCs, but they don't necessarily rap. Hip-hop has its roots in soundsystem culture as much as any type of underground UK dance music does and this is where the MC in hip-hop stems from as well (though rapping has different cultural origins). Sadly, many figures in hip-hop (especially rappers) have no clue what soundsystem culture is about, but I still believe it's important to make the distinction between MCing and rapping. They're not the same, outside and even within a hip-hop context. As the old saying goes, "A good MC knows when to shut up", this is something that doesn't apply to rapping.Seeofseaof (talk) 20:38, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

For Gods sake - Samples

Hip Hop is ALL about samples. The article should at the very least have a section on Samples with the main famous samples eg Ohio Players The Funky Worm Eric Wright and 145th St Band (Eazy E's Father!) - NWA Express Your Self Kool and the Gang - Summer Madness Chic Good Times - Sugar Hill Gang Rapper's Delight OPP (naughty by nature) - ABC jackson 5 It Was a Good Day - by Ice Cube Isley Brothers Footsteps in the Dark Aerosmith - Walk this Way : Run DMC - Walk this Way

I could go on... Lets just stick to the good ones. For anybody who likes 'new' hip hop I suggest you listen to 99 problems by ICE T not Jay Z. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.79.119.164 (talk) 04:08, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Krumping

There is no mention of Krumping, I would consider it a hip-hop dance style? What do you think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.4.69.182 (talk) 07:01, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Re: Duplications

Uhhh... deet de de!!! hello, theres already one of these articles except BETTER. It's called "hip hop music. and the only diffrents about the 2 is that yours looks like it was typed by a ghetto-rat. No offense and some people do appreciate this article but you have to do a little snooping around before you strike, do you know what I mean. I'm suprised it hasent been deleted, but unfortunatley i dont have the power to do that at the moment. Make sure not to "duplicate" anymore articles or you will be blocked or possibly kicked off. MajorHawke (talk) 03:00, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Um...

What's with the lack of information regarding the millions of inner-city deaths that were the result of gang violence encouraged by this awful music?

Because there are no reliable sources backing up your claims? --Whip it! ^{Now whip it good!} 06:07, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

I think you have this confused with Gangsta Rap, and even then gangsta rap was about being real and telling the people about the streets, millions die due to their ignorance (gangs, drugs, money etc.) and even though it may seem like it, gangsta rap only put the worlds eyes into their world, no one died BECAUSE of gansta rap, dumb people died because of ignorance or just plain stupidity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.34.188.60 (talk) 05:32, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

You mean gangsta rap not hip hop, hip hop is the old school stuff like Public Enemy, gangsta rap like Eazy-E and Eminem are more associated with violence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Metalfan72 (talk • contribs) 00:07, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

hip hop

people may not know but a successful rapper in ohio jcurt is becoming very well known he is changing hip hop as we speak —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.208.188.178 (talk) 18:54, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

WP:nobody cares , WP:NOONECARES , WP:GARAGE Ald™ ¬_¬™ 19:02, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

The Meaning behind hip hop. Hip hop tells a story behind those lyrics. They mean more than words, they express anger, sadness, or happiness. It has been made loud and clear throughout hip hop that there has to be a change in society and we need to take part in it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Coralnunez (talk • contribs) 01:44, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

1. Numbered list item

we are 99% movement

the we are 99% movemnet is birthed from the Hip Hop movement. As one of the possible originals who coined the term, and helped organize the movement, I can personally be a witness to the 99% movement being birthed from the 5% and Hip Hop movement. I have sources but they are just personal blogs even named weare99percent that have been around much longer than OWS. Just thought it was a note of interest for the people that know what Hip Hop culture is really about. You started this! Dont let anyone say different cause I was/am there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.251.236.87 (talk) 19:35, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Can we please stop reverting this as vandalism

The following sentences appear at the end of the "American Society" section:

• Lindsay Calhoun proposes the idea that Eminem constructs his identity as a white male through hegemonic masculine dominance, whiteness, and heterosexuality. Since Eminem’s music articulates whiteness in a unique way and it intersects with hegemonic masculinity, it helps us understand how discursive strategies of whiteness and masculinity both adapt, change, and sustain themselves in both a contradictory way as well as a consistent way through cultural expressions such as rap music.

I've tried to remove this a couple of times. The first time it was tagged as vandalism and automatically reverted. The second it was reverted again because of "unexplained removal". The third, another vandalism bot (or maybe a person using a vandalism tool?) reverted it again. Read the passage as a whole. It describes how gangsta rap emerged and began to supplant social and politically conscious rap. Then this is just tacked on to the end, saying "Oh, by the way, Eminem (whose name had not been used prior) is white, male, and heterosexual, and he raps about being white, male, and heterosexual. In fact, he defines his identity as a white male through being white".

It does not fit with the passage at all. On top of that, it's incredibly verbose, uses nearly incoherent and meaningless language, and adds nothing to the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.65.52.146 (talk) 04:16, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

"Rap music," not "hip hop music"

According to KRS One and Afrika Bambaataa, the word "hip hop" refers to the culture, not the music. This has been the definition since the late-1970s/early-1980s. The term "hip hop music" is incorrect, and KRS One has articulated this in many of his songs and lectures. However, this incorrect term is still used many times throughout the article. The correct term is "rap music," not "hip hop music." The term "hip hop," which, by the way, is correctly described in the lede, refers to the culture as a whole, which is made up of the four pillars -- MCing (aka "rapping"), DJing, breakdancing, and graffiti. "Rap music" is a musical expression of hip hop culture and typically combines one or two of the pillars (MCing, DJing, or both). (And more recently, as "rap music" has become more mainstream and is no longer reliant on turntable sampling alone, the term has come to include other aspects of professional music production that are required to create a modern rap track.) But despite the evolution of this genre of music, the terminology remains the same: the proper nomenclature is "rap music," not "hip hop music." Cheers, ask123 (talk) 19:45, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

also according to KRS, it's spelled "Hiphop".72.184.233.201 (talk) 21:40, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

SupportThose within the hip hop community who study the history of the movement are very careful to distinguish between the two. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ossum86 (talk • contribs) 08:10, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Eh, I'm not sure I buy that. Yes, pioneers and Golden Age figures like KRS-1 and Bambaataa, as well as academics, talk a lot about the four elements or "pillars" of hip-hop, but as for how the term "hip-hop" (or hiphop or hip hop) is actually used today by young people, it predominately refers to a style of music. It's a prescriptivist vs. descriptivist argument, so of course the old guys and the "scholars" will bang on about the four integral elements, while in the real world, the meaning of the term has shifted considerably. Do you really think most graffiti artists consider themselves hip-hop artists? While certain styles of graf art were, at least in the beginning, an outgrowth of the same cultural milieu as hip-hop music, that doesn't mean they necessarily have anything to do with hip-hop in 2013. If I illegally paint a picture of Ludwig van Beethoven on the side of a wall, is that hip-hop?

Bold text== Morris Heights ==

Morris Heights is historically a 55-61% Hispanic, 34-38% African-American community. Labeling either it or Sedgewick as solely "African-American" is clearly misleading, whether intentionally done so or not. -199.173.225.33 (talk) 13:45, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Morris Heights has (historically) one of the highest Hispanic populations in NYC: "While Hispanics are found in almost every neighborhood in the city, the greatest number of them live in the Bronx, particularly in Soundview, University Heights, Fordham, Bedford Park, Morris Heights, and Co-op City. [1]" Further, "In the Bronx, Hispanics accounted for nearly one-half of the borough's population. Black nonhispanics, the next largest group comprised 31 percent, and white nonhispanics were 15 percent. The substantial Hispanic presence includes the more established Puerto Rican population, Dominican immigrants who arrived in large numbers in the 1970s and 1980s, and myriad other Hispanic groups, ranging from Mexicans to a variety of Central and South American populations." In "The New Bronx," Denton Tarver notes, "As the residents left or were driven out, a new face of the Bronx emerged. Puerto Ricans were coming in record numbers during the 1950s (think West Side Story), and blacks from Harlem were moving north (think Colin Powell, the future general and politician). The South Bronx went from being two-thirds white in 1950 to being two-thirds black and Puerto Rican in 1960.[2]" Even if none of this were true, the assumption that Morris Heights was a majority African-American community would have nothing to do with the fact that Hip Hop, during the early 1970's began with the presence of both African-Americans and Hispanics. If you disagree with that, cite something more reliable than personal opinion. -RoBoTam^ice 13:44, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Support--Robotam, you've done a lot of good research.

African American AND Hispanic American

This statement is supported by the three references given, as well as:

• 'The origins of hip-hop and rap lie in 1970s New York African American and Latino/a dominant inner city areas as the Bronx, the Lower East Side, and Harlem' (Allatson 2007, p. 199)

• 'Hip hop culture began in the 1970s in the Bronx among African-American, Latino and Carribean youth... ' (Turner 2003, p. Xxvi)

-Cntras (talk) 12:08, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Will you please give a complete citation for Turner, 2003? Nov 2012 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ossum86 (talk • contribs) 08:31, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

gnōthi seauton

SFAIK, this subject is without any merit as a vehicle for self knowledge for populations that desperately need to reject the backwardness and ignorance it trumpets. If there is some sense in which hip hop actually has self knowledge, or real knowledge of human cultural attainments as an element of what it's about, please supply that with a reference and revert my change to the lede. 72.228.190.243 (talk) 03:51, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Also suggest following change for the current last lede ¶ sentences: change "at its best"/"at its worst" to "supporters claim"/"detractors claim" and provide support. Current text indicates that it is an escape from poverty but doesn't say for whom. In fact by re-enforcing the culture that leads to poverty it helps lock people into same, except for those cashing in on the degradation of their communities. 72.228.190.243 (talk) 11:10, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Biased Phrasing

"Hip hop has mirrored the worst aspects of the mainstream (American) culture that it emerged from: materialism, sexism, an internalized racism, violence, vandalism and antipathy towards intellectualism."

It definitely worth pointing out these drawbacks; talking about hip hop without talking about materialism, violence, excess would be impossible. But the bias comes in when it's implied, without evidence, that these issues are merely reflections of "mainstream" American society. It seems to me that the thug life of Tupac Shakur is demonstrably NOT mainstream. Hip hop is in part about escapism, which is by definition not mainstream. Agh.niyya (talk) 14:07, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

== 80s & 90s Sections - ESSENTIAL NAMES to Add (Like Shanté, MC Lyte, Missy Elliot, Queen Latifah!!!!)== - Hello???Sylvia Blossom (talk) 14:11, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

I CANNOT believe the absence of popular female rappers Shanté, MC Lyte, Missy Elliot, Queen Latifah, & Monie Love in this article - unless I am SOMEHOW just not seeing them! Groups TLC + Salt-N-Pepa were also quite popular & ESSENTIAL for this article. It would be nice to also mention a couple more underground female groups, but it is ABSOLUTELY necessary to have the above mentioned names!!!

Sylvia Blossom (talk) 14:11, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

By the way, Shanté, MC Lyte, and Queen Latifah were three early female rappers who did respond to misogyny by mainstream male rappers (which was also present in much of the underground rap as well". Queen Latifah's song "U.N.I.T.Y." directly questioned the calling of women as "b*tches" & "hoes". This should be mentioned in the section that discusses misogyny in rap. Sylvia Blossom (talk) 15:00, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Alternative & Underground Hip Hop Artists: Names to Consider Including in Article + Names That Have Been Added Already

LIST IS ALPHABETIZED. PLEASE ADD MORE NAMES!! Go ahead and edit the list; try to add them in alphabetical order. Names not already mentioned in the article can be considered for the article, for someone who wishes to add them & say something about them (with a citation of course). Although I created a separate section for female rappers, it is also appropriate for them to appear here as well.

This is not a complete list of alternative rappers already listed in the article. If you see some in the article mentioned that count as "alternative" or "underground" add them here.

Although some of these were relatively popular, some of them are noteworthy of the "Alternative" status due to socially conscious lyrics.

Sylvia Blossom (talk) 14:40, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Hey all - just started this. Feel free to contribute names. Please double check that you spelled names correctly so no one gets confused. I haven't had time to alphabetize yet. Go ahead if you like. Thanks!

Please list name of artist/group & approximate start date if known (like when they started performing under that name or when they first recorded singles or an album). Must have or be featured on a copyrighted & verifiable album, or be featured on some other dated document/program (like sampled by a DJ, written about in a review/journal/magazine/book, listed on a flyer that was copied in a newspaper or other resource, etc.). Although Wikipedia has certain requirements for "noteworthiness" of performers, there are exceptions that can be made if relevant to the article (whether they would be worthy of their own wikipedia page or not). So if they are very underground, BRIEFLY explain the relevance please. Sylvia Blossom (talk) 15:28, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Sorry - I got confused - because there's two articles about hip hop on wikipedia; this one and "hip hop music" so earlier I had noticed the names of 3 or 4 very early female rappers listed, but I think it was on the other one. I'm tired, so I'll have to come back to look at these articles later and try to understand the difference between the two. At any rate, it's not okay to drop the names of NUMEROUS male rappers without also dropping the names of relevant/significant females for each topic. You would almost think these female rappers never existed looking at this article. I believe the other one also is inadequate, so I have to come back to BOTH of these when I'm less tired to make suggestions. In the meantime, anyone out there who has names they'd like to add to this list for CONSIDERATION, please do so. With underground acts, they must be verifiable, and you should really indicate their relevance to a specific topic in this article (like a rapper who discusses the commercialization of rap for example).

Sylvia Blossom (talk) 15:28, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

• Arrested Development
• A Tribe Called Quest
• Black Sheep
• Blue Scholars
• De La Soul
• Digable Planet
• Frank Ocean (of "Odd Future"; alternative; recently came out as bisexual)
• G'Fellas
• Grandmaster Flash & The Furious Five
• Idle Warship
• Lady B (female, mentioned in other hip hop wikipedia article?)
• MC Lyte
• MC Sha Rock of “Funky Four Plus One” (female, mentioned in other hip hop wikipedia article?)
• M.I.A. female; (mentioned in article already?)
• Monie Love
• Odd Squad
• Peaches (female; feminist/sexually provocative lyrics/ was an English major)
• Public Enemy
• Q-Tip
• Saul Williams (liberal; socially conscious rapper, covers a large variety of topics related to society, war, racism, money, power, etc. Saul Williams is educated; his lyrics are very intelligent, and he does question issues like commercialization and what-not).
• Sonic Boom Six (Hip Hop-Punk-Ska)
• The Jungle Brothers
• The Sequence (all-female trio with Angie Stone)
• Tu Pac
• Yo Magesty (alternative; openly queer female trio)

Sylvia Blossom (talk) 14:45, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Sylvia Blossom (talk) 23:35, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Growth of Alternative Hip Hop Music in Internet Age + Female Rappers (80s-today/globally) & the Cultural Relevance of Both

So I noticed that this (or was it the other article?) mentioned something about hip hop being "dead" as there has been a decline in the sales of [gangsta] rap. I'd have to strongly disagree with that statement as I feel it hasn't died, it's face has changed, with increases in conscious hip hop, and people marketed that stuff in the 80s (though some of that is still misogynistic to some degree though certainly not nearly as much as the gangsta rap). Gangsta Rap sent all that into the underground, and now more people want the alternative stuff and they can get it with the increase of indie labels and the increased promotion of the alternative musicians by those labels. It is important to point out the growth of alternative hip hop music in the 2000s as it is relevant to hip hop culture & culture in general. The article on "hip hop music" points this out, though they indicate that many of the consumers of alternative hip hop music are the "indie rock" types. Although this is mentioned in the other article, I think it's worth pointing out that hip hop isn't "dead" just changing as it is culturally relevant, particularly in regards to who it is that's accessing the alternative and underground music online, what kind of music they're looking for, who isn't, and how it affects the images and beliefs that people have today vs. Gangsta Rap's golden age. Of course, K-12 education has increased their teachings of multicultural studies over the last couple of decades, so that has also helped some young people to not learn as much racism growing up. Still it persists, but are many of the racists older? A professor of mine in African American Culture said that things will be better when the "old people die". No one wants their grandparents to pass away, but will racism decrease with the passing of time, or will poor economic times always factor in causing racism to go up and down with the economy?

I know that some of the stuff here is duplication of stuff in the other article, but how to keep the music and culture separate? You can't explain one without explaining the other. Discussing this with the writers & editors of the other article may be necessary - and this article should be heavier on the cultural stuff and lighter on the techniques (like beat boxing) except to briefly explain the cultural heritage that these techniques came out of. More important to the culture is the public image, what stuff has been mainstream and what is underground, what types of music came out of which cultural areas, and it's effect on the global culture. The other article should discuss the techniques in more detail.

There still needs to be more females listed through-out the article as they have been present from the early 80s to today, in the U.S. and globally, and are certainly part of the cultural heritage and legacy as well - whether they be feminist, rapping about relationships, sex, men, friends, or even women (there are some queer hip hop artists out there though generally alternative),politics, poverty, etc. and about the female global rappers, etc. - what are they responding too in their lyrics, what image do they present with, and what has their cultural impact been?

DO WE HAVE ANY FEMALE HIP HOP SCHOLARS OUT THERE? IF SO, PLEASE HELP! Sylvia Blossom (talk) 19:25, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Commercialization

The first paragraph of this section is terrible, I think it should be completely removed. The meaning of the commercialization of hip-hop is that change has occurred over time in order to serve the economic interest of the industry. What a child, with no memory of pre-mass-market hip-hop, thinks about this is neither notable, relevant, or credible. The fact that the child then goes on to attribute violence in an impoverished community to music is outlandish, and purely a product of the ignorance the child has for the causes of violence, and perhaps the producer of the film too. The other paragraphs are very good and with statements attributed to notable authors. If someone who is a regular editor on this article agrees, please remove it; i think it is unsalvageable. I'm not going to remove it because it will just get reverted. The grammar is just as bad as the content. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.96.229.49 (talk) 14:41, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

http://www.academia.edu/694687/Has_Black_Music_Souled_Out_Capitalism_Commodification_Colonialism

The White Music Industry as a Master & The Exploitation of Stereo-Typed "Blackness" - Today's Minstrel: I would include a line from the above article, to demonstrate that one researcher has actually compared the music industry (mostly white-owned and white-controlled) to that of the slave industry, in which a cultural product is the commodity. Furthermore, the recording companies retain most of the profits. In the case of hip hop, they have found that putting out of image of "blackness" (which they create) that is stereotypically hyper-violent & hyper-sexual to be quite profitable over the years (though apparently the market reached it's saturation point). The researcher further contends that this stereotypical image of blackness feeds the illusion of white superiority - particularly among anti-progressive whites (in a world where the privilege of whites is being challenged). She also compares the music industry role to that of a "pimp" who's product is comparable to the entertainment products of the minstrel era, comparing the packaged image of Lil' Kim to that of Sarah Baartman "Hottentot Venus" who people payed to see at freak shows, and the packaging of 50 Cent with a Surinam maroon. She doesn't blame the musicians so much as she blames the industry for exploitation and the consumers. This article is specifically about the hip hop & rap industry. Sylvia Blossom (talk) 17:01, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Fake Hip Hop Culture Vs. Genuine Hip Hop Culture (Is Organic Hip Hop "Dead"?) By the way - I don't believe that you can truly consider the culture of hip hop based on what is presented in mainstream music, which is a commercial product in which major labels provide the capita & market their "products" aggressively. The true hip hop culture will always be found on the street & with small independently-owned independent labels or self-published. Because some of the so-called "indie" labels are owned by larger companies, even some of those artists are subject to a certain degree of management, control, and "packaging for consumption" so to speak. I don't believe hip hop is dead, but you're going to find it where it all began - rather people are playing it on the street, in homes, in coffee-shops, in speak-easies, or having a small number of them printed up to sell online (and hopefully making use of tools such as Pandora & Last.fm). You might here them on college stations or community stations. But the top-40 stuff is not real culture and doesn't represent the vast diversity of creative, innovative, & passionate individuals and bands who make genuine hop hop - music that is genuinely expressive art & poetry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sylvia Blossom (talk • contribs) 16:53, 6 June 2013 (UTC) Sylvia Blossom (talk) 17:01, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Mainstream Hip Hop's "Declining Market Interest"***

I would also speculate that declining market changes would result from 2 things (something worth looking into!):*** 1) The target market (often males, often white suburbans) of the 90s and 2000s when "Gangsta Rap" was at it's high has aged; they may not want to listen to this music around their kids (if they have kids), their tastes may have changed, and/or they may have spouses/partners who do not want to listen to it & it is also often not "work-appropriate" depending on where they work 2) Today's target market that has replaced yesterday's target market has different tastes; it seems to me many young males are into dub-step. But one would need to look at the statistics to see what today's young consumers are paying for, which may be more difficult to track in an online age. Also, many young people are pirating music, so that can also cause declines in target demographics (but one would need to see if overall today's young people are buying less music). Also, many just listen to Pandora & Last.fm while advertisers pay for the songs and the recording companies receive a certain amount every time a song is played.

On another note - sales of "indie" label hip hop is increasing with increased promotion of artists by some of these labels. Of course, some of these so-called "indie" labels are owned by larger corporations, so one would have to look at who these "indie" labels are & what percentage of them are "truly indie" so to speak. At any rate, the tastes of young consumers are changing (as they usually tend to do over the years), so yes, at some point mainstream hip hop reached it's peak & can perhaps expect some kind of revival in another 20 or 30 years. But the mainstream hip hop of the "Gangsta Rap" days was an exploitative and non-genuine image of what "Real Hip Hop" is. And let's hope tomorrow's consumers are smart enough to see through any false and exploitative images that would be served to them on a silver platter for what they are, and let's hope that they will be educated enough (as in not ignorant and racist) to not want to pay for the exploitation of others.

These are all worth getting stats/info on. Anyone have good info on my above speculations & in regards to how often revivals in consumer-driven music occur?

For those of you who want to continue to listen to "real" hip hop, turn your radio off and go find it in the underground & support the independent artists! Or tune into your college/community station during the (underground) hip hop hour. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sylvia Blossom (talk • contribs) 17:40, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Rapper’s Delight was the first group to “commodify” hip-hop. This changed the scene forever because a medium that was once personalized to the community and the people it affected directly, became a mainstream genre of music that eventually became capitalized by white America. White people would shame the people of color making the music, yet had no problem profiting off of it. People of color who originally made the music and culture of hip-hop felt it had lost its meaning because it became more about hyper masculinity, misogyny, and being a “thug”, as opposed to its original roots for social change, activism and helping people who “made something out of nothing.” Today hip-hop is a genre that white, upper-class, youth listen to and will reference in captions on social media and appropriate the culture. Yet, have no respect for the people who created the genre