Talk:Hiroshige

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Surname-only-page title justification[edit]

Following Wikipedia policy on article names (which says "What .. would the average user of the Wikipedia put into the search engine?") we have been listing Japanese woodblock prints artists under the names they are commonly known by in the West - which means we do not use their complete names (which are rarely used in the West, and for artists of this era change over time anyway). Please see Talk:Sharaku for an extended discussion on this topic. Please leave them where they are. Thank you. --Noel 20:36, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)


Encarta, Webmuseum, and WP[edit]

This edit claims the Hiroshige was copied from Encarta. I don't have access to Encarta, but most of the text has been copied from the WebMuseum with this edit. The WebMuseum license allows that. But where did the WebMuseum get their article? And where did Encarta get theirs? Can someone compare to Encarta? --Rl 18:17, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

There is a small bit of resemblance here, but I doubt there is significant sharing. --Maru 18:24, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
For example, here's a page derived from the '96 Encarta http://www.values.ch/Painters/Hiroshige/hiroshige.htm; but while there are unavoidable similarities foisted upon the two articles by the subject matter and encyclopedic style, I do not consider them copyright-infringement level. --Maru 18:26, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
I had looked at that page before, but I hadn't noticed the Encarta notice. I don't agree with your interpretation. It's clearly literal copying of a complete article. I compared the articles sentence for sentence, and the differences amount to minor copyedit. Two or three sentences deleted, a couple of words reshuffled. --Rl 19:04, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
/removes foot from mouth, so he can see the link.
Err. Y'know, I should probably have read that more carefully. Agree. --Maru 02:37, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
It is possible, though unlikely, that both Encarta and Webmuseum used the same Public Domain source (the subject is certainly old enough). I think we should revert. --Rl 09:19, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
Revert to what? There doesn't seem to be a pure version worth having in the page history, according to my cursory glance. I think we should instead rewrite. I just went to the Brooklyn Museum today and saw two of his prints and one of Hiroshige II's (they weren't on display on their own, but as part of a whole exhibit on the Thames, along with a bunch of nice Monets), which AFAIK is the only institution in the US to have a set of his "One Hundred Famous Views of Edo"; I also bought the book which reproduces the series, along with a rather good biographical introduction. We can use that book of the same name as a source to rewrite and expand. The only problem is me having enough time to read the book and rewrite the article, so this is by no means the only possibility. There is no rush anyhow. --Maru 01:46, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

It might be best to create a new article Hiroshige/temp and replace the current article with the new one. We can write a decent stub and fill the rest in later. – By the way, I have added a warning to the WebMuseum entry in Wikipedia:Free or semi-free non-Public-Domain information resources. --Rl 06:55, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Started a substub for it, using the pieces of the article surely good. --Maru 19:28, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
Excellent. If that's alright with you, I am going to list the article on WP:CP. That should get the article replaced with your new stub. --Rl 20:05, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
I hope you weren't talking about the sub-stub :) ; but if you want the main article deleted, you could just ask an admin. Looking at the article history and us two would easily convince one to do it for us. --Maru 03:17, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
I leave it to you then. I'm rarely successful in my attempts to get an admin to do my bidding :-). Rl 10:16, 20 August 2005 (UTC)


Replacement of copyvio[edit]

I've deleted the original copyvio article and replaced it with the temp article, as requested (I've also reformatted the new article, so that the image and text are properly aligned). Good luck with the rewrite! --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:07, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Thx. --Rl 09:33, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Concur. --Maru 15:55, 22 August 2005 (UTC)


Removing webmuseum link[edit]

We haven't used it as a reference for the new article, and it may invite others to copy stuff from there too (because the webmuseum pages are supposedly GFDL compatible). What do you think about removing the reference section for now? --Rl 21:13, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

I dunno... If we remove it, some well-intentioned soul could well come by and readd it or its material, unwittingly; and it would be too easy to simply forget to re-add it. Perhaps we can simply add a note to the effect that it's non-free? Also: what was up with your recent edits? Pretty strange prose. --Maru 02:33, 23 August 2005 (UTC)


Hiroshige name[edit]

What is up with this guy's name? I've seen "Andro Hiroshige", "Ando Hiroshige", and "Ichiyusai Hiroshige". Which is right? For that matter, how do you pronounce "Hiroshige" anyway? --Maru 03:49, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

The German WP mentions that later he was called 歌川広重 (Utagawa Hiroshige). – The Andro or Andō is most likely just an artifact from different people trying to write a Japanese name with Roman letters. Hmm... I guess that wasn't all that helpful, was it? :-) --Rl 07:17, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
So I guess we can use "Utagawa Hiroshige" (Western naming order, right?) as the standard, since Andro and Ando are according to you bad romanizations. But that doesn't explain "Ichiyusai". --Maru 18:03, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
You are right, it doesn't. And you should ignore me, I am just guessing. It's pretty obvious that Andro and Andō are both the same name written differently. The others are distinct. I found this name on the web: "Utagawa (Ando Tokutaro) Hiroshige". Oops, yet another name. Tokutaro. The only constant is Hiroshige. Except that he is also known as Hiroshige I, because he had a student who became known as Hiroshige II. Fun, ain't it? --Rl 18:40, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Well, I knew about Hiroshige II, since one of the prints up at the Brorklyn Museum was his, and he edited and expanded the 100 famous views of places to its grand total (of I think) 118 woodblock prints. Sounds like a lot of redirects are warranted. *sigh*. But can we agree on "Utagawa Hiroshige"? Or do you think another is more suitable? --Maru 19:15, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Google counts some 20'000 pages for both Ando and Utagawa. The article should mention both. I just wish I could tell the reader how each name came about. Alas, I have no clue. — By the way, you could look at other articles with similar issues for inspiration, say Vladimir Lenin. --Rl 19:28, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
_Sigh_. I really want to make a good article of this, but I just don't have the background. Oh well. We'll do what we can, and hope that'll not be too bad. --Maru 04:35, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Andō is the first family name that Hiroshige was born with, the full name being Andō Tokutaro. However, after he studied with the artist Utagawa Toyohiro (head of the Utagawa school at the time), he then changed his family name to Utagawa to signify his alliance with the Utagawa school in 1812. It as at this point that he took the artistic name of Hiroshige, thus becoming known as "Utagawa Hiroshige." Artists would often change their name several times over their career to signify changes in their artistic development. Hiroshige is known by many including "Ichiyūsai Hiroshige," "Ichiryūsai Hiroshige," and many others.

Rewrite[edit]

I've rewritten as best as I can. Please review and add to it. --Maru 01:36, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

For pointers, the French wikipedia has a kick-ass article. --Maru (talk) 23:18, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Pronunciation of "Hiroshige"[edit]

The IPA given in the article gives a common way that Westerners pronounce the name, but it is quite incorrect. The "o" and "e" are short, not long. Also there is no stress on the "shi" syllable; in fact the "i" of "shi" is almost inaudible in the Japanese pronunciation. Does anyone know the correct IPA representation of the Japanese "r"? I'll come back later with a proposed better IPA rendering. --McKay 23:01, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

So what you are saying is that the pronunciation in Japanese is closer to "hirosh-ge" than it is "hero-SHE-gay." Correct? - Parsa (talk) 17:29, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
Japanese phonology gives the Japanese r as ɺ̠. I don't know or understand IPA, but I wonder if
utɑgɑwɑ hɪɺ̠oʃige
would be any closer?
A further comment is that different languages have different pronunciations. When you arrive at the best representation of the Japanese pronunciation, it's a good idea to label it as the Japanese pronunciation. --Fg2 10:21, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, closer. This IPA stuff makes my head hurt :-). I think the first letter ("hi") is çi̥, and the third ("shi") is ɕi. I wonder what the aim should be here. Probably fewer people understand Japanese IPA symbols than understand Japanese sounds. McKay 12:21, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I believe listing the original pronunciation in IPA would be better too; if people were trying to pronounce the name in a way particular to their own country or language, wouldn't they be able to derive that from just the Roman transcription? - 132.229.183.49 10:08, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Samurai Champloo appearance?[edit]

A ukiyo-e artist by the name of Moronobu Ishikawa (in the English dub, at least) shows up in the fifth episode of the anime Samurai Champloo. In the episode, he attempts to stow away on a ship to the West; he doesn't make it, but one of his works does, and is said to inspire Van Gogh in a manner very similar to Hiroshige's. Does this qualify as an appearance of Hiroshige under another name, and thus justify an "In Popular Culture" section with one or two lines detailing the appearance? -Toptomcat 22:55, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I think so. While Hiroshige didn't have any yakuza connections so far as is known, the Van Gogh thing seems a pretty direct reference. --Gwern (contribs) 01:21 23 November 2006 (GMT)
Another question is whether it should be added to an article. All Wikipedia editors are welcome to contribute to the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan#"X in popular culture" sections of articles. Fg2 01:25, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Arguments for notability: Samurai Champloo is quite a popular anime, its creator also did the legendary Cowboy Bebop and was a contributor to the impressive Animatrix, and the entire fifth episode revolves around the Moronobu character. It isn't a simple cameo. -Toptomcat 16:32, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Whoop. I may have made a mistake. I found the Wikipedia page for a Moronobu Hishikawa, also a ukio-e artist, who seems to have been the artist referred to in the Champloo episode. However, Hishikawa did not influence Van Gogh- that aspect of the Champloo character does still seem to have been lifted from Hiroshige. Does this still deserve a mention in the article? My gut says no... -Toptomcat 17:04, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Possible External Link[edit]

The Brooklyn Museum has just put the entire series online as an online exhibition: The One Hundred Famous Views of Edo

http://www.brooklynmuseum.org/exhibitions/online/edo/

Brooklynmuseum 23:22, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Very nice site and quite relevant. Thanks! Fg2 02:35, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

128.223.176.157 (talk) 18:26, 1 June 2009 (UTC) There is another show in the works of Hiroshige's 53 Stations alongside a contemporary Japanese printmaker who revisioned the work - Junichiro Sekino. You can find the info here: http://jsma.uoregon.edu/exhibitions/upcoming/

Needs more inline references[edit]

I like this article, but for a B-Class assessment to hold, it needs more citations at the end of paragraphs. Viriditas (talk) 10:24, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Date of death[edit]

This website claims that 'Hiroshige passed away on the sixth day of September of the year 1858' rather than the date currently in the infobox. Can anyone who can translate the text in File:Portrait à la mémoire d'Hiroshige par Kunisada.jpg confirm if this is true? JMiall 16:19, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

I imagine it's because the Japanese government didn't adopt the Gregorian calendar until 9 November 1872. Months and days before that are based on the lunisolar calendar. I don't know of a site that can do it, but I imagine converting "sixth day of ninth month of Ansei" to Gregorian will give you 12 October 1858. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 21:09, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
this site does the conversion and it does. So the quote above is based on a misunderstanding rather than the different dates originating from different sources. Good. JMiall 21:39, 23 March 2015 (UTC)