Talk:History of the Jews in Kurdistan
|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the History of the Jews in Kurdistan article.|
|WikiProject Kurdistan||(Rated Start-class, Mid-importance)|
|This page was previously nominated for deletion. The result of the discussion was keep.|
- 1 Curious
- 2 pre-Muslim Gentile Kurds?
- 3 Hebrew translation
- 4 Female Rabbi
- 5 "Kurdish Jews"
- 6 Are Kurdish Jews Semitic?
- 7 Hebrew: Kurdim ?
- 8 "related groups" info removed from infobox
- 9 'Kurdish Jews' is very wrong
- 10 Assyrian and POV
- 11 Broken link
- 12 Yahudoye Othuroye
- 13 1- Hebrew and 2- photo upside down
- 14 Requested move
- 15 Orphaned text
- 16 הוזייה כורדינייה as an Aramaic endonym?
- 17 the kurdish jews of northern iraq, spoke also kurmanji, and not only aramic
- 18 Alternate name
- 19 Rename to History of
- 20 Rename
- 21 Ethnic Identity
I've long been curious about these people.
Gringo300 06:16, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
pre-Muslim Gentile Kurds?
Since the article contrasts Kurdish Jews with Muslim Kurds, I felt that I needed to mention that I'd read something a while back about (Gentile) Kurds practicing another religion before Islam. Come to think of it, I think I've heard something about some (Gentile) Kurds STILL not practicing Islam, but I'm not an expert in any of this.
Gringo300 06:21, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
- Prior to the mass conversion to Islam, many of what comprise modern "Kurds" were, in fact, Jewish. If you look back in Mas. Gittin you find mention of several Kurdish kingdoms which were wholly Jewish, including Adiabene. TomerTALK 05:59, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
Loreley 12:05, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
- Or you could be confusing the Kurdish Jews with the Yazidi.
Yup- Indeed, Kurds were mainly Yazidi before Islam. Kurds living before WWII or their descendents do have stories of Kurdish Jews who once lived with them. Most left after the formation of Israel though. I don't think most of these Jews were converts, but were probably descendents of a displaced Jewish Tribe. Many went on to become powerful rulers of kingdoms in the region. Overtime though, they gradually became accustomed to Kurdish culture, while keeping their own traditions. MercZ 01:05, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Kurds were mainly Zoroastrians and Yazidi prior to Islam. The Newroz celebration for example is originally a Zoroastrian celebration (based on the ancient Assyrian Kha b-Nisan) which is still celebrated today among Kurds and other Iranic peoples. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ibrahim4048 (talk • contribs) 12:57, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
The article currently says that the Hebrew for Kurdish Jews is, and I quote, "(יהדות כורדיסתאן "Jews of Kurdistan", Standard Hebrew Yehudi Kurdistan)" This is just plain wrong. Somewhere. Either it's "Yahadut Kurdistan" in Standard Hebrew, or the Hebrew should be spelled יהודי כורדיסתאן. Someone with the requisite knowledge, please fix this. Tomertalk 00:45, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
- I agree. Fixed it. PhatJew 12:55, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't like the use of the term Rabbi in this context. I seriously doubt she was referred to by the title or received formal semicha. And, while being the female leader of a yeshiva is certainly notable, it is completely different from the implications of semicha and being a Rabbi that are implied here. PhatJew 12:55, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
- Your comfort level is hardly a basis for editing in light of WP:NOT, WP:NPOV and WP:NOR. Can you WP:CITE sources that say she wasn't considered a rabbi? Tomertalk 10:56, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
- This discussion should be held in her article, not here. AucamanTalk 11:25, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Here is what I dont understand; why are Jews from the region of Kurdistan considered ethnically Kurdish? Jews from Baghdad were not considered "arab" but they were considerd Iraqi, in terms of nationality. So were Jews from Poland considered ethnically Polish? The Jews from the region of Kurdistan are the same Jews that were deported by the Asssyrians from Judah. This is proven by Jews of Kurdistna region still speaking the Aramaic language (the same language of the Assyrian empire.) I like how Polish Jews is redirected to History of the Jews in Poland and I think the same should be done to this page as well. Chaldean 15:08, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
- I'm under the impression that the Kurdish Jews are actually racially/ethnically Kurdish. Some people would ask if it's possible to be 100% Kurdish and 100% Jewish at the same time. I'm figuring out more all the time that the whole concept of race is far more complex than a lot of people realize it is. But, I still have a lot to learn about Kurdish Jews. (or Jewish Kurds?) Gringo300 05:37, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Are Kurdish Jews Semitic?
Are Kurdish Jews Semitic? I've heard that not all Jews are. Gringo300 11:32, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I just want to add that "Kurdish Jews" are not ethnically Kurdish, rather they are ethnically Jews. They are the decendents of the Jews who were exiled from their land by the Assyrians and Babylonians. They were not Kurdish back then. The Term Kurdish Jews is very confusing to many here as we can see. Just to clarify They are ethnic Jews, not Kurds, their language is mainly Aramiac (old-assyrian) and they are ethnically closer to their Assyrian neighbours then they are to the Kurds.
Hebrew: Kurdim ?
I always read the term 'Kurdim' in English articles mentioning the existence of the so-called 'Kurdish Jews' in Israel. Shouldn't this term be mentioned in the article as the local ethnonym used in Israel, even if the one used by themselves in 'Kurdistan' probably was Hozaye, in the judeo-aramaic dialects like Lishana Deni. I read this in a 'World culture encyclopedia' 'Jews of Kurdistan' article: 'In Kurdistan: Hōzāyē (by the Jews themselves), Hūdāyē (by the Christians), Juhū (by the Kurds); in Israel: Kurdim.'.
To be frank, I don't believe it right to speak of 'Kurdish Jews', nor of 'Kurdish Christians' (an article partly written by some missionary using the POV term 'followers of Jesus'), it would be more neutral to title the article 'History of the Jews in Kurdistan' like someone else suggested. The ethnonym 'Kurd' relates primarily to persons speaking a Kurdish language and/or claiming a Kurdish ethnic heritage, which doesn't seem to be the case of either Jews or Assyrian Christians (or Arabs and Turkmens) living ou having their family roost in some part of 'Kurdistan'. The situation will of course be different if/when a Kurshish state will gain admission to the U.N. --Pylambert 20:04, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- The article is not titled Jewish Kurds, but Kurdish Jews. If the article is correct, they speak (also) Kurdish, and dress like the neighbouring Kurds, so the adjective "Kurdish" is justified here, I suppose.
- Apparently, there are Kurds who have embraced Christianity, so what's the problem with the article title Kurdish Christians? And what's so POV about "followers of Jesus"? --Benne ['bɛnə] (talk) 06:11, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
- If they are Kurdish Jews, how can they help but also be Jewish Kurds? Gringo300 13:31, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Listen everyone, there ARE Kurds who believe in christianity! There ARE Kurds who belivie in Judaism! There ARE "Kurdish Jews" (kurds who follows Judaism) and Kurdish Christians. Religon is NOT ethnicity. --Kurdalo (talk) 16:29, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
'Kurdish Jews' is very wrong
Please change the article to 'Kurdistani Jews'. Or, 'Jews of Kurdistan'. There has never been a Kurdish Jew. If anything their nationality is closer to the language they used 'Syriac' than to Kurdish. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 12:34:08, August 19, 2007 (UTC)
It's not wrong. Aramaic is their religious language. Same as a vas amount of Ethnic Kurdish Christians who gradually started to consider themselves as Assyrian since 19th. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 08:40, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
This is going on a different topic now, but does this guy claim that Assyrians are ethnically Kurds...and changed with name in the 19th cen.??? Cause that is very false. Assyrians have been documented before 6758 years ago and throughout history have continued their name. Even after the fall of thier empire in 612 BC the Persians, then Greeks, then Romans, then Arabs and lets not forget the assyrians themselves have written about them. A Middle East Genetic Study has shown that Assyrians are a distict peoples who share little to no features with anyone else in the world. However it also states that many Iraqi/Syrian Arabs and Kurds have alot of traces of Assyrian genetics in them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 01:03, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Correction to the above > Assyrians are not a distinct people, they are a mix of Hurrian and Akkadian element, the designation Assyrian was derived from their God Assur. Babylonians, Assyrian neighbours in the south called Assyrian by the name Subaru - a tribe of Hurrian origin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 22:49, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
Assyrian's are not mix of Hurrian and Akkadian elements, Assyrian's are a mix of Akkadian, Hurrian, Aramean, Persian, and Amorite people. Subaru is not the correct name, the name you are looking for is Subartu. Subartu comes from Sumerian to mean the north of Iraq but that was soon dropped after the Assyrian empire took place. From the look of it, you believe Mehrdad Izady is correct? If you do, you are not very smart. have a good day ܐܵܬܘܿܪܵܝܵܐ 13:41, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
Assyrian and POV
Yes yes, like the assyrian/suryan wrote in the text above, "assyrians share no genetics with any people in the world". Then you are not Humanbeings right? Aliens? By this you mean that your people came from the sky? Suuuuure, if that's what you think, go ahead do so.
This is fact, there was many kurds who followed christianity and now consider them as Assyrians. They were/are originally not Assyrians but if thats what they want go ahead think so. And there are also Kurds who follows Judaism (not to be confused with Jews of Kurdistan).
Assyrian ancestor (akkadian) came from Southern Mesopotamia (near Bagdad) and eventually created a state called Assyria.
Kurds were Yazidis before islam, and they never ever marry annother people, not even todays Yezidis marry annother Kurd if he isn't yezidi (read the article and you will understand). And with that they were 100% ethnical kurds. Then islam came. And when Kurds converted to Islam, they were allowed to marry others if they were muslims, but still they didn't mix with arabs. Only a few few rare bit of the Kurds did it. Of course they didn't marry Assyrians because they were christians. But when the Turks started a massacre on Armenians (it was meant on armenians, but Assyrians too got killed because they had the same faith) some kurds (few) forced Assyrians to marry them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kurdalo (talk • contribs) 16:46, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
- You are right that Assyrians share genetics with a lot of other peoples, for example with the Jews who are basically a branch of Arameans/Assyrians (Abraham was Aramean) who moved to present day Israel and mixed with the local Canaanite peoples. They also share genetics with the Persians, Kurds/Medes and Arabs by whom a lot of Assyrians were assimilated. Many Kurds, Arabs and Turks are actually of Assyrian origin. Assyrians themselves also have assimilated other peoples in the past such as the Akkadians, Hittites, Hatti etc. Wave after wave of conquering peoples assimilated the previous peoples, so in this region everybody shares genetics with each other. Belonging to an ethnic group such as Kurds, Turks or Arabs doesn't guarantee that you genetically belong to that group. Most Turks are for example genetically not central Asian/Turkic but are descendants of turkified Persians, Kurds, Arabs, and Greeks etc.
- You are not right though when you blame the massacres on Assyrians on Turks only. That is completely untrue. Everybody knows that these massacres were committed mostly by Kurdish militia's/bandits and only to a lesser extent by Circassians, Arabs and Turks. You can argue that the ottoman government ordered these massacres (there are no documents/proof of such orders though) but in the end it wasn't the Turks but the Kurds who bloodied their hands with Assyrian blood. The ottoman government MIGHT be guilty of ordering the Kurdish militia's to commit the massacres and they DID order the tehcir/relocation but it is 100% CERTAIN that the Kurds committed the actual murders. So to me it is very strange when I hear a Kurd accuse the Turks of a genocide against Armenians and Assyrians when they are the ones who actually committed the massacres. Ibrahim4048 (talk) 14:21, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
Comment to the above > Don’t try to re-write the history with your bigotry, there was an irregular Kurdish Cavalry “Al Hamidia” that committed some of the atrocities, however the top commanders as a rule with these troops was commanded by a Turk, don’t forget that. Other killings that were done by the Kurds was as a reaction (revenge) to an earlier atrocities that were committed by the Assyrians and Armenians accompanied by Russian troops against peaceful Kurdish villagers. On the other hand, there are a lot of stories of Kurds protecting and hiding the Armenians and Christians from the massacre. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 23:11, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
You're telling him not to rewrite history with bigotry? You're are a hypocrite and uneducated Qurd. Assyrians and Armenians never committed any atrocities with Russian troops. Before WW1, the Armenians complained about Bedouins and Kurds raiding and pillaging their villages. You said that there were stories of Kurds protecting and hiding Christians during the genocide, that is true but only a small amount (50-100) did help others; however if they got caught, they would've been killed by their fellow Kurds. It is true that the commanders were Turks but Kurds did carry out killings and that is SHAMEFUL. ܐܵܬܘܿܪܵܝܵܐ 13:49, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
In biblio, link associated w/ "Schwartz, Howard. The Day the Rabbi Disappeared. Jewish Holiday Tales of Magic. Illustrated by Monique Passicot. Viking, 2000. ISBN 0-67-088733-1. $15.99. 80 pp." ain't there any more. ABS (talk) 00:17, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
Why is this included in the article. Yahudoye Othuroye means Ancient Assyrian Jews. There are no othuroye/ancient assyrians living today. There are modern assyrians who claim to be descendants of the ancient assyrians and they, together with the arameans/chaldeans are called suryoye, not othuroye which refers only to the ancient people. Even then, assyrian jews are not the same as kurdish jews and shouldn't be mixed up in one article. The fact that these kurdish jews spoke aramaic doesn't prove that they were assyrians since aramaic was spoken throughout the whole middle east prior to islam while hebrew was virtually extinct. Hebrew was only revived in the 20th century by zionists. The kurdish jews are either kurds who adopted judaism, jews who adopted the kurdish language/culture (most likely) or a mix of both. Ibrahim4048 (talk) 13:22, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
1- Hebrew and 2- photo upside down
1- I corrected the Hebrew and its transliteration יהודיYehudei
2- please note that the photo of the manuscript page File:Kurdish_Jews,_Purim.jpg is upside down, if someone knows how to change that just do it (and please tell me how to, I'll be so delighted) thanks Hope&Act3! (talk) 23:19, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
This topic is not my specialism at all, so am not editing the page, but I removed the following lengthy section from the History of the Jews under Muslim rule article, and leave it for editors here to decide what is usable.BobFromBrockley (talk) 17:06, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
Recently, an important book came out, by Mordechai Zaken, describing the unique relationship between Jews in urban and rural Kurdistan and the tribal society under whose patronage the Jews lived for hundreds of years. Tribal chieftains, or aghas, granted patronage to the Jews who needed protection in the wild tribal region of Kurdistan; the Jews gave their chieftains dues, gifts and services. The text provides numerous tales and examples about the skills, maneuvers and innovations used by kurdistani Jews in their daily life to confront abuse, extortion and of greedy chieftains and tribesmen. The text also tells the stories of Kurdish chieftains who saved and protected the Jews unconditionally.
הוזייה כורדינייה as an Aramaic endonym?
I think that neither "הוזייה כורדינייה" is Aramaic nor they called themselves Kurdinaye. Anyway, in NENA dialects, Christian and Jewish alike, the name "Kurd" should always start with a Qoph, and if one uses the Jewish Aramaic dialect that renders the Daleth of Jewish to /z/, then the same rule should apply to the word Kurdish as well.--Rafy talk 01:29, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
- You're right, it should be just הוזייה, without the כורדינייה. I'll change it. Ben Gershon - בן גרשון (Talk) 02:33, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
the kurdish jews of northern iraq, spoke also kurmanji, and not only aramic
A very intresting fact. i know it from my mother side' wich is kurdish. my grandfathr and grandmother spoke it, and aramic to. they are from zakho and dohouk. no one mention this fact, only the aramic' and i think it should be mentioned/ yoel.18.104.22.168 (talk) 23:33, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, it should be mentioned of course. You may add this if you like.Greyshark09 (talk) 18:49, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
@Rafy, i think we should first discuss your move proposal, because it is complicated - some would say "Kurdish Jews" is same weight as "Babylonian Jews", "Baghdadi Jews" and "Persian Jews" (relating to Jewish communities of Mesopotamia, named on countries which no more exist). "Iraqi Jews" is a modern naming which caught up in the 20th century, thus considering Iraq still exists and no Jews are present there it should indeed be 'History of Jews in Iraq". On the same weight the only closest issue on Kurdish Jews is "History of Jews in Iraqi Kurdistan", because otherwise it confuses what is "Kurdistan" today (Iraqi, Syrian, Iranian?).Greyshark09 (talk) 14:29, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
- I thought the new title better complies with the "History of Jews in ..." style used with other similar articles. Many other articles like Iraqi Jews were moved without discussion. BTW, Jews were concentrated in the Iraqi region but there were also communities in Iranian and Turkish Kurdistan as well.--Rafy talk 15:31, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
Rename to History of
The religion of the Jews in Kurdistan was Jewish, their nationality was Kurdistani and their language was Syriac, however their ethnic identity is less pronounced. The Jews in today's Kurdistan region converted to Judiasm in 30 AD and were Syriac speaking people, which makes their ethnicity much closer to the Syriacs of Semitic Assyrian stock, than to Aryan Kurds. Not everyone who lived in the Kurdistan region was ethnically Kurdish, in fact Syriac Christians & Syriac Jews are living proof of that. Further, at the time of conversion in 30 AD there were no Kurds in Kurdistan, there is absolutely no historical proof that the Kurdish language, ethnicity, or indeed nationality existed in Northern Iraq at that time. Also, the administration of Adiabene which was the Kingdom that contained these converts was conducted entirely in the Syriac language, it was the official language and even the coins minted in Adiabene contained Syriac lettering, suggesting very much that Jewish Adiabene was ethnically Syriac of Semitic, Assyrian stock.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk • contribs) 21:41, 9 September 2014
- Please read Wikipedia:No original research. This encyclopedia collects information already published elsewhere. If sources cannot be found that are easily verifiable by a large number of users, the section should be removed. —PC-XT+ 01:10, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
- Mordechai Zaken , Jewish Subjects and Their Tribal Chieftains in Kurdistan: A Study in Survival, Brill: Boston and Leiden, 2007. This book is Based on new oral sources, carefully analyzed, and explores the relationships between Jewish subjects and their tribal chieftains in Kurdistan, focusing on the patronage and justice provided by the chieftains and the financial support provided by the Jews to endure troubles and caprices of chieftains. New reports and vivid tales unveil the status of Jews in the tribal setting; the slavery of rural Jews; the conversion to Islam and the defense mechanisms adopted by Jewish leaders to annul conversion of abducted women. Other topics are the trade and occupations of the Jews and their financial exploitation by chieftains. The last part explores the experience of Jewish communities in Iraqi Kurdistan between World War I and the mass-migration to Israel (1951-52). The author, Mordechai Zaken, Ph.D. (2004) in Near Eastern Studies, The Hebrew University of Jerusalem, specializes in the history of the Kurds, the oriental Jewry, and the minorities in the region. He served as the Adviser on Arab Affairs to the Prime Minister of Israel (1997-99).