Talk:History of the Jews in Kurdistan

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I've long been curious about these people.

Gringo300 06:16, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

pre-Muslim Gentile Kurds?[edit]

Since the article contrasts Kurdish Jews with Muslim Kurds, I felt that I needed to mention that I'd read something a while back about (Gentile) Kurds practicing another religion before Islam. Come to think of it, I think I've heard something about some (Gentile) Kurds STILL not practicing Islam, but I'm not an expert in any of this.

Gringo300 06:21, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Prior to the mass conversion to Islam, many of what comprise modern "Kurds" were, in fact, Jewish. If you look back in Mas. Gittin you find mention of several Kurdish kingdoms which were wholly Jewish, including Adiabene. TomerTALK 05:59, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Loreley 12:05, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Or you could be confusing the Kurdish Jews with the Yazidi.

Yup- Indeed, Kurds were mainly Yazidi before Islam. Kurds living before WWII or their descendents do have stories of Kurdish Jews who once lived with them. Most left after the formation of Israel though. I don't think most of these Jews were converts, but were probably descendents of a displaced Jewish Tribe. Many went on to become powerful rulers of kingdoms in the region. Overtime though, they gradually became accustomed to Kurdish culture, while keeping their own traditions. MercZ 01:05, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

I dunno. Tomertalk 00:45, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes it is true, kurds were Yazidi before islam. (read the article yazidi.....) --Kurdalo (talk) 16:22, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Kurds were mainly Zoroastrians and Yazidi prior to Islam. The Newroz celebration for example is originally a Zoroastrian celebration (based on the ancient Assyrian Kha b-Nisan) which is still celebrated today among Kurds and other Iranic peoples. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ibrahim4048 (talkcontribs) 12:57, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Hebrew translation[edit]

The article currently says that the Hebrew for Kurdish Jews is, and I quote, "(יהדות כורדיסתאן "Jews of Kurdistan", Standard Hebrew Yehudi Kurdistan)" This is just plain wrong. Somewhere. Either it's "Yahadut Kurdistan" in Standard Hebrew, or the Hebrew should be spelled יהודי כורדיסתאן. Someone with the requisite knowledge, please fix this. Tomertalk 00:45, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Fixed it. PhatJew 12:55, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Female Rabbi[edit]

I don't like the use of the term Rabbi in this context. I seriously doubt she was referred to by the title or received formal semicha. And, while being the female leader of a yeshiva is certainly notable, it is completely different from the implications of semicha and being a Rabbi that are implied here. PhatJew 12:55, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Your comfort level is hardly a basis for editing in light of WP:NOT, WP:NPOV and WP:NOR. Can you WP:CITE sources that say she wasn't considered a rabbi? Tomertalk 10:56, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
This discussion should be held in her article, not here. AucamanTalk 11:25, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

"Kurdish Jews"[edit]

Here is what I dont understand; why are Jews from the region of Kurdistan considered ethnically Kurdish? Jews from Baghdad were not considered "arab" but they were considerd Iraqi, in terms of nationality. So were Jews from Poland considered ethnically Polish? The Jews from the region of Kurdistan are the same Jews that were deported by the Asssyrians from Judah. This is proven by Jews of Kurdistna region still speaking the Aramaic language (the same language of the Assyrian empire.) I like how Polish Jews is redirected to History of the Jews in Poland and I think the same should be done to this page as well. Chaldean 15:08, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

because they are kurds —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talkcontribs) 23:44, 16 November 2006.

I'm under the impression that the Kurdish Jews are actually racially/ethnically Kurdish. Some people would ask if it's possible to be 100% Kurdish and 100% Jewish at the same time. I'm figuring out more all the time that the whole concept of race is far more complex than a lot of people realize it is. But, I still have a lot to learn about Kurdish Jews. (or Jewish Kurds?) Gringo300 05:37, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Are Kurdish Jews Semitic?[edit]

Are Kurdish Jews Semitic? I've heard that not all Jews are. Gringo300 11:32, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I just want to add that "Kurdish Jews" are not ethnically Kurdish, rather they are ethnically Jews. They are the decendents of the Jews who were exiled from their land by the Assyrians and Babylonians. They were not Kurdish back then. The Term Kurdish Jews is very confusing to many here as we can see. Just to clarify They are ethnic Jews, not Kurds, their language is mainly Aramiac (old-assyrian) and they are ethnically closer to their Assyrian neighbours then they are to the Kurds.

sure there are some non-semites who follow the Jewish faith, but all Jews (not religion) are semetic —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 00:56, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

There are Kurdish Jews too. They are not ethnic jews, but they are Kurds who converted to Judaism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kurdalo (talkcontribs) 16:25, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Hebrew: Kurdim ?[edit]

I always read the term 'Kurdim' in English articles mentioning the existence of the so-called 'Kurdish Jews' in Israel. Shouldn't this term be mentioned in the article as the local ethnonym used in Israel, even if the one used by themselves in 'Kurdistan' probably was Hozaye, in the judeo-aramaic dialects like Lishana Deni. I read this in a 'World culture encyclopedia' 'Jews of Kurdistan' article: 'In Kurdistan: Hōzāyē (by the Jews themselves), Hūdāyē (by the Christians), Juhū (by the Kurds); in Israel: Kurdim.'.

To be frank, I don't believe it right to speak of 'Kurdish Jews', nor of 'Kurdish Christians' (an article partly written by some missionary using the POV term 'followers of Jesus'), it would be more neutral to title the article 'History of the Jews in Kurdistan' like someone else suggested. The ethnonym 'Kurd' relates primarily to persons speaking a Kurdish language and/or claiming a Kurdish ethnic heritage, which doesn't seem to be the case of either Jews or Assyrian Christians (or Arabs and Turkmens) living ou having their family roost in some part of 'Kurdistan'. The situation will of course be different if/when a Kurshish state will gain admission to the U.N. --Pylambert 20:04, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

The article is not titled Jewish Kurds, but Kurdish Jews. If the article is correct, they speak (also) Kurdish, and dress like the neighbouring Kurds, so the adjective "Kurdish" is justified here, I suppose.
Apparently, there are Kurds who have embraced Christianity, so what's the problem with the article title Kurdish Christians? And what's so POV about "followers of Jesus"? --Benne ['bɛnə] (talk) 06:11, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
If they are Kurdish Jews, how can they help but also be Jewish Kurds? Gringo300 13:31, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Listen everyone, there ARE Kurds who believe in christianity! There ARE Kurds who belivie in Judaism! There ARE "Kurdish Jews" (kurds who follows Judaism) and Kurdish Christians. Religon is NOT ethnicity. --Kurdalo (talk) 16:29, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

"related groups" info removed from infobox[edit]

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left here. Ling.Nut 23:01, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

'Kurdish Jews' is very wrong[edit]

Please change the article to 'Kurdistani Jews'. Or, 'Jews of Kurdistan'. There has never been a Kurdish Jew. If anything their nationality is closer to the language they used 'Syriac' than to Kurdish. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk) 12:34:08, August 19, 2007 (UTC)

It's not wrong. Aramaic is their religious language. Same as a vas amount of Ethnic Kurdish Christians who gradually started to consider themselves as Assyrian since 19th. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 08:40, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

This is going on a different topic now, but does this guy claim that Assyrians are ethnically Kurds...and changed with name in the 19th cen.??? Cause that is very false. Assyrians have been documented before 6758 years ago and throughout history have continued their name. Even after the fall of thier empire in 612 BC the Persians, then Greeks, then Romans, then Arabs and lets not forget the assyrians themselves have written about them. A Middle East Genetic Study has shown that Assyrians are a distict peoples who share little to no features with anyone else in the world. However it also states that many Iraqi/Syrian Arabs and Kurds have alot of traces of Assyrian genetics in them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 01:03, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Correction to the above > Assyrians are not a distinct people, they are a mix of Hurrian and Akkadian element, the designation Assyrian was derived from their God Assur. Babylonians, Assyrian neighbours in the south called Assyrian by the name Subaru - a tribe of Hurrian origin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 22:49, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Assyrian's are not mix of Hurrian and Akkadian elements, Assyrian's are a mix of Akkadian, Hurrian, Aramean, Persian, and Amorite people. Subaru is not the correct name, the name you are looking for is Subartu. Subartu comes from Sumerian to mean the north of Iraq but that was soon dropped after the Assyrian empire took place. From the look of it, you believe Mehrdad Izady is correct? If you do, you are not very smart. have a good day ܐܵܬܘܿܪܵܝܵܐ 13:41, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Assyrian and POV[edit]

Yes yes, like the assyrian/suryan wrote in the text above, "assyrians share no genetics with any people in the world". Then you are not Humanbeings right? Aliens? By this you mean that your people came from the sky? Suuuuure, if that's what you think, go ahead do so.

This is fact, there was many kurds who followed christianity and now consider them as Assyrians. They were/are originally not Assyrians but if thats what they want go ahead think so. And there are also Kurds who follows Judaism (not to be confused with Jews of Kurdistan).

Assyrian ancestor (akkadian) came from Southern Mesopotamia (near Bagdad) and eventually created a state called Assyria.

Kurds were Yazidis before islam, and they never ever marry annother people, not even todays Yezidis marry annother Kurd if he isn't yezidi (read the article and you will understand). And with that they were 100% ethnical kurds. Then islam came. And when Kurds converted to Islam, they were allowed to marry others if they were muslims, but still they didn't mix with arabs. Only a few few rare bit of the Kurds did it. Of course they didn't marry Assyrians because they were christians. But when the Turks started a massacre on Armenians (it was meant on armenians, but Assyrians too got killed because they had the same faith) some kurds (few) forced Assyrians to marry them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kurdalo (talkcontribs) 16:46, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

You are right that Assyrians share genetics with a lot of other peoples, for example with the Jews who are basically a branch of Arameans/Assyrians (Abraham was Aramean) who moved to present day Israel and mixed with the local Canaanite peoples. They also share genetics with the Persians, Kurds/Medes and Arabs by whom a lot of Assyrians were assimilated. Many Kurds, Arabs and Turks are actually of Assyrian origin. Assyrians themselves also have assimilated other peoples in the past such as the Akkadians, Hittites, Hatti etc. Wave after wave of conquering peoples assimilated the previous peoples, so in this region everybody shares genetics with each other. Belonging to an ethnic group such as Kurds, Turks or Arabs doesn't guarantee that you genetically belong to that group. Most Turks are for example genetically not central Asian/Turkic but are descendants of turkified Persians, Kurds, Arabs, and Greeks etc.
You are not right though when you blame the massacres on Assyrians on Turks only. That is completely untrue. Everybody knows that these massacres were committed mostly by Kurdish militia's/bandits and only to a lesser extent by Circassians, Arabs and Turks. You can argue that the ottoman government ordered these massacres (there are no documents/proof of such orders though) but in the end it wasn't the Turks but the Kurds who bloodied their hands with Assyrian blood. The ottoman government MIGHT be guilty of ordering the Kurdish militia's to commit the massacres and they DID order the tehcir/relocation but it is 100% CERTAIN that the Kurds committed the actual murders. So to me it is very strange when I hear a Kurd accuse the Turks of a genocide against Armenians and Assyrians when they are the ones who actually committed the massacres. Ibrahim4048 (talk) 14:21, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Comment to the above > Don’t try to re-write the history with your bigotry, there was an irregular Kurdish Cavalry “Al Hamidia” that committed some of the atrocities, however the top commanders as a rule with these troops was commanded by a Turk, don’t forget that. Other killings that were done by the Kurds was as a reaction (revenge) to an earlier atrocities that were committed by the Assyrians and Armenians accompanied by Russian troops against peaceful Kurdish villagers. On the other hand, there are a lot of stories of Kurds protecting and hiding the Armenians and Christians from the massacre. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 23:11, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

You're telling him not to rewrite history with bigotry? You're are a hypocrite and uneducated Qurd. Assyrians and Armenians never committed any atrocities with Russian troops. Before WW1, the Armenians complained about Bedouins and Kurds raiding and pillaging their villages. You said that there were stories of Kurds protecting and hiding Christians during the genocide, that is true but only a small amount (50-100) did help others; however if they got caught, they would've been killed by their fellow Kurds. It is true that the commanders were Turks but Kurds did carry out killings and that is SHAMEFUL. ܐܵܬܘܿܪܵܝܵܐ 13:49, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Assyrians and "Kurdish Jews"[edit]

Genetically these peoples are the same. The Seharane spring festival is orginated in the ancient Akkadian spring festival named Akitu. And many of the first names and surnames of these Jews are in Akkadian since antiquity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 12:46, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Broken link[edit]

In biblio, link associated w/ "Schwartz, Howard. The Day the Rabbi Disappeared. Jewish Holiday Tales of Magic. Illustrated by Monique Passicot. Viking, 2000. ISBN 0-67-088733-1. $15.99. 80 pp." ain't there any more. ABS (talk) 00:17, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Yahudoye Othuroye[edit]

Why is this included in the article. Yahudoye Othuroye means Ancient Assyrian Jews. There are no othuroye/ancient assyrians living today. There are modern assyrians who claim to be descendants of the ancient assyrians and they, together with the arameans/chaldeans are called suryoye, not othuroye which refers only to the ancient people. Even then, assyrian jews are not the same as kurdish jews and shouldn't be mixed up in one article. The fact that these kurdish jews spoke aramaic doesn't prove that they were assyrians since aramaic was spoken throughout the whole middle east prior to islam while hebrew was virtually extinct. Hebrew was only revived in the 20th century by zionists. The kurdish jews are either kurds who adopted judaism, jews who adopted the kurdish language/culture (most likely) or a mix of both. Ibrahim4048 (talk) 13:22, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

1- Hebrew and 2- photo upside down[edit]

1- I corrected the Hebrew and its transliteration יהודיYehudei
2- please note that the photo of the manuscript page File:Kurdish_Jews,_Purim.jpg is upside down, if someone knows how to change that just do it (and please tell me how to, I'll be so delighted) thanks Hope&Act3! (talk) 23:19, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

2- photo  Done --Hope&Act3! (talk) 18:23, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to support move. Arbitrarily0 (talk) 21:52, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

I think the current name is misleading as those Jews are 1) not ethnically Kurdish and 2) Have existed in the region many centuries before the Kurds dominated the area. The name "Kurdish Jews" appears to be more popular in google books but what is striking is that the title of most books discussing them usually goes as either "Kurdistani Jews" of "Jews of Kurdistan". Relisted. Arbitrarily0 (talk) 14:53, 29 August 2011 (UTC) --Rafy talk 17:11, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

According to google books:

-- Takabeg (talk) 08:37, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

  • Rename but to Jews of Kurdistan. We have turned away from having references in the form booian fooain, in favour of Booian of Fooian descent. That is unnecessarily complicated in this case. If we are dealing with this ethnicity after emigration fro example to US, it should be Jews of Kurdistni descent. Peterkingiron (talk) 18:13, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
  • Keep as Kurdish Jews. This gets into a whole debate over "Ethnicity vs. religion" (and opening up the whole Who is a Jew? debate). Can one be ethnically Kurdish and religiously Jewish? Of course! I think that is partially what the article is getting at. The real issue of contention is whether to have the page as "Jews of Kurdish origin" (Which I think the page does an OK job of explaining) or as "Jews from Kurdistan". I feel as if the former is a better example of the heart of this article than the other. Plus, if we look at the results that Takabeg found for us, it seems as if "Kurdish Jews" is the more widely used terminology in scholarly works on the subject. Bkissin (talk) 20:17, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
The fact that you think that those Jews used to or still identify as Kurds is another reason why we should rename the article. The Jewish population in the region dates back to the 7th century B.C. long before the Kurds started appearing there, they spoke Aramaic and had Kurdish, Persian or Arabic as their second language. They mostly lived among Christians, except in Rowanduz perhaps, and they have never identified themselves as being Kurds in any way. If you take a look at Google Books results you will find out that the more specialised ones calls them either "Kurdistani Jews" or "Jews of Kurdistan".[1][2][3]--Rafy talk 00:21, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
  • Keep as Kurdish Jews. This is supported by majority of sources, and this is also the self-identification of this community. In fact the Kurdish Jews are unique, in the sense they self-identify as both Kurdish and Jewish (claiming Jewish ancestry and religion, while merging it into the pan-ethnic cultural identification as Kurds). The majority of Kurdish Jews reside in Israel, and are currently Hebrew speaking as their first language, with the elderly also speaking Kurdish dialects. Aramaic has been the community's liturgical language for extensive period of history (probably since Persian period, when Aramaic became linga Franca), but none Kurdish Jews actually use the language today.Greyshark09 (talk) 18:56, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
To the contrary... I don't think there are any Jews who embrace a "Kurdish identity". I would even imagine that the term is insulting for them (Just like Assyrians would be insulted if called "Kurdish Christians"). The majority of them live indeed in Israel and speak Hebrew but Aramaic is still spoken by the first two generations of migrants.[4][5] It's funny when you look for videos of "Kurdish Jews" on youtube you find instead people speaking Aramaic identical to the one spoken in Northern Iraq and wearing traditional clothing similar to those worn by Assyrians and not Kurds.[6][7].--Rafy talk 13:43, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
You could say what you are saying about any Jewish population, however. Russian Jews spoke Yiddish, as well as Russian and Hebrew (for liturgical purposes), yet they are still considered Russian Jews. Bukharan Jews are a perfect example here. They used to (and for a portion, still do) live in what was once the Emirate of Bukhara, now modern day Uzbekistan/Tajikistan. Historically, they speak Bukhori, which is a Judeo-Tajik language, much like Yiddish or Ladino, but the also spoke Russian, Tajik and Persian. They were also isolated within the larger community, having to pay the jizya tax, etc. However, today, those Jews (and their descendents), whether they still live in the area or not, identify as Bukharan Jews. My point, however, is that I think you are building a link or making conjectures that do not exist. While Assyrian Christians may object or be insulted to be considered Kurdish Christians, that does not mean that Jews in the area would be as well. I think you are trying to draw comparisons between the Jewish and Assyrian experience in the region that may or may not exist. While they may have been similar, I don't know if they are as similar as you are suggesting. Bkissin (talk) 03:52, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm not trying to draw any comparisons and I realise that Jews has much less to complain about Ottoman and Kurds than their Christian counterparts. Back to our subject, "Kurdish" is an ethnicity while "Kurdistan" is a region (Just like Bukhara, Yemen, Iraq, Iran... etc.). Since we attribute Jews to their geographical distribution in "Kurdistan" and "Bukhara" and not the ethnic groups they shared their habitat with ("Kurds" and "Uzbeks"), then we should use "Bukharan Jews" and "Kurdistani Jews".--Rafy talk 14:27, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
  • Support to Jews of Kurdistan. This is most common in English. -- Takabeg (talk) 13:53, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
  • Keep Tempest in a teacup. Kurdish Jews is fine. Same as "Yemenite Jews" rather than Jews of Yemen, which would seem to imply Jews who actually live in Yemen--Geewhiz (talk) 05:05, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
Lets go through this again... Those Jews were not ethnically Kurdish, just like the Jews who lived between Arabs were not ethnically Arabic. We say "Yemenite Jews" and "Iraqi Jews" to attribute them to the geographical regions of Iraq and Yemen, and that was my argument for changing the article's title.--Rafy talk 14:15, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
One point you might have missed - a significant portion of those Jews self-identified Kurdish despite the fact there was no Kurdish state in 1948-1951 (when they were evacuated to Israel), unlike Jews of Yemen and other Jews of Iraq, both of which were named for Yemenite and Iraqi nationality - none of Yemenite and Iraqi Jews self-identify as "Yemenite" or "Iraqi" in ethnic sense.Greyshark09 (talk) 06:18, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
They never identified as "Kurdish" and neither Kurds nor Christians considered them as such. The name was applied to them by others who attributed them to the region where they originally settled. I understand that this is a common misconception in Israel.[8]--Rafy talk 13:19, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
I find it highly anachronistic that the only place with significant Kurdish Jewish community suffers of "misconception". It is rather surprising that the "true" conseption is held by people who might have never seen a Kurdish Jew.Greyshark09 (talk) 16:25, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
I have to agree with Geewhiz on this one. this whole thing is being blown out of proportion. As we can see in earlier discussions on this talk page here and here, there are some who disagree with the term, but rather than get consumed in a historical debate on the subject (Who was here first and who massacred whom, etc.) why don't we just keep the term the way it is. It may not make everyone happy, but it's probably the best course of action. Bkissin (talk) 16:02, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Orphaned text[edit]

This topic is not my specialism at all, so am not editing the page, but I removed the following lengthy section from the History of the Jews under Muslim rule article, and leave it for editors here to decide what is usable.BobFromBrockley (talk) 17:06, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Recently, an important book came out, by Mordechai Zaken, describing the unique relationship between Jews in urban and rural Kurdistan and the tribal society under whose patronage the Jews lived for hundreds of years. Tribal chieftains, or aghas, granted patronage to the Jews who needed protection in the wild tribal region of Kurdistan; the Jews gave their chieftains dues, gifts and services. The text provides numerous tales and examples about the skills, maneuvers and innovations used by kurdistani Jews in their daily life to confront abuse, extortion and of greedy chieftains and tribesmen. The text also tells the stories of Kurdish chieftains who saved and protected the Jews unconditionally.[1]

I would like to mention this book as well Unwitting Zionists - the Jewish community of Zakho in Iraqi Kurdistan by H. Gavish [9].Greyshark09 (talk) 17:30, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

הוזייה כורדינייה as an Aramaic endonym?[edit]

I think that neither "הוזייה כורדינייה" is Aramaic nor they called themselves Kurdinaye. Anyway, in NENA dialects, Christian and Jewish alike, the name "Kurd" should always start with a Qoph, and if one uses the Jewish Aramaic dialect that renders the Daleth of Jewish to /z/, then the same rule should apply to the word Kurdish as well.--Rafy talk 01:29, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

You're right, it should be just הוזייה, without the כורדינייה. I'll change it. Ben Gershon - בן גרשון (Talk) 02:33, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

the kurdish jews of northern iraq, spoke also kurmanji, and not only aramic[edit]

A very intresting fact. i know it from my mother side' wich is kurdish. my grandfathr and grandmother spoke it, and aramic to. they are from zakho and dohouk. no one mention this fact, only the aramic' and i think it should be mentioned/ yoel. (talk) 23:33, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it should be mentioned of course. You may add this if you like.Greyshark09 (talk) 18:49, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Alternate name[edit]

@Rafy, i think we should first discuss your move proposal, because it is complicated - some would say "Kurdish Jews" is same weight as "Babylonian Jews", "Baghdadi Jews" and "Persian Jews" (relating to Jewish communities of Mesopotamia, named on countries which no more exist). "Iraqi Jews" is a modern naming which caught up in the 20th century, thus considering Iraq still exists and no Jews are present there it should indeed be 'History of Jews in Iraq". On the same weight the only closest issue on Kurdish Jews is "History of Jews in Iraqi Kurdistan", because otherwise it confuses what is "Kurdistan" today (Iraqi, Syrian, Iranian?).Greyshark09 (talk) 14:29, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

I thought the new title better complies with the "History of Jews in ..." style used with other similar articles. Many other articles like Iraqi Jews were moved without discussion. BTW, Jews were concentrated in the Iraqi region but there were also communities in Iranian and Turkish Kurdistan as well.--Rafy talk 15:31, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
I don't know about the Iraqi Jews page, but i suggest to make official rename proposal here - let's see some opinions.Greyshark09 (talk) 21:52, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Rename to History of[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move. Cúchullain t/c 16:48, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Kurdish JewsHistory of Jews in Kurdistan – As per discussion above and This one. --Relisted Tyrol5 [Talk] 00:43, 14 January 2013 (UTC) --Rafy talk 16:00, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Actually there are other historical regions, see History of the Jews in Alsace.--Rafy talk 13:22, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Support -- The Kurds are an ethnic group. The Jews referred to are (or were) those living among them, but they woule still be Jews, not Kurds. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:52, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.


Looks like this article has been renamed from History of Jews in Kurdistan to History of the Jews in Kurdistan. Any objections? Liz Read! Talk! 19:27, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Ethnic Identity[edit]

The religion of the Jews in Kurdistan was Jewish, their nationality was Kurdistani and their language was Syriac, however their ethnic identity is less pronounced. The Jews in today's Kurdistan region converted to Judiasm in 30 AD and were Syriac speaking people, which makes their ethnicity much closer to the Syriacs of Semitic Assyrian stock, than to Aryan Kurds. Not everyone who lived in the Kurdistan region was ethnically Kurdish, in fact Syriac Christians & Syriac Jews are living proof of that. Further, at the time of conversion in 30 AD there were no Kurds in Kurdistan, there is absolutely no historical proof that the Kurdish language, ethnicity, or indeed nationality existed in Northern Iraq at that time. Also, the administration of Adiabene which was the Kingdom that contained these converts was conducted entirely in the Syriac language, it was the official language and even the coins minted in Adiabene contained Syriac lettering, suggesting very much that Jewish Adiabene was ethnically Syriac of Semitic, Assyrian stock.— Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs) 21:41, 9 September 2014‎

Please read Wikipedia:No original research. This encyclopedia collects information already published elsewhere. If sources cannot be found that are easily verifiable by a large number of users, the section should be removed. —PC-XT+ 01:10, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
I agree this section should be removed. I couldn't find any sources that supports the claims. Actually I've found sources that contradicts them.--Abtalion (talk) 15:54, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 11 May 2017[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus (non-admin closure) Yashovardhan (talk) 16:31, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

History of the Jews in KurdistanHistory of the Jews in Iraqi Kurdistan – The article mainly deals with Jewish history in the area of modern Iraqi Kurdistan; since all "history of the Jews in <foo>" articles refer to modern countries (history of the Jews in the United States, History of the Jews in Turkey, History of the Jews in Jordan, etc.), Kurdistan should be updated to Iraqi Kurdistan GreyShark (dibra) 18:23, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Oppose The article discusses Jews in all parts of Kurdistan. not only those currently part of Iraq. There is no reason to restrict the scope and title to just one section of Kurdish Jews. And it would seem to be politically problematic to conflate "Kurdistan" with "Iraqi Kurdistan".

Additionally, we should not equate "countries" with "states". We have, for instance, articles on History of the Jews in Scotland and History of the Jews in Wales. Neither of these is currently a state, though they are clearly countries with a cultural distinctiveness. It would not be appropriate to amalgamate these into History of the Jews in England, or all three into History of the Jews in the United Kingdom. Kurdistan is no less a country than any of these, and for the purposes of this article should be treated as a whole. RolandR (talk) 10:27, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
  1. ^ Mordechai Zaken , Jewish Subjects and Their Tribal Chieftains in Kurdistan: A Study in Survival, Brill: Boston and Leiden, 2007. This book is Based on new oral sources, carefully analyzed, and explores the relationships between Jewish subjects and their tribal chieftains in Kurdistan, focusing on the patronage and justice provided by the chieftains and the financial support provided by the Jews to endure troubles and caprices of chieftains. New reports and vivid tales unveil the status of Jews in the tribal setting; the slavery of rural Jews; the conversion to Islam and the defense mechanisms adopted by Jewish leaders to annul conversion of abducted women. Other topics are the trade and occupations of the Jews and their financial exploitation by chieftains. The last part explores the experience of Jewish communities in Iraqi Kurdistan between World War I and the mass-migration to Israel (1951-52). The author, Mordechai Zaken, Ph.D. (2004) in Near Eastern Studies, The Hebrew University of Jerusalem, specializes in the history of the Kurds, the oriental Jewry, and the minorities in the region. He served as the Adviser on Arab Affairs to the Prime Minister of Israel (1997-99).