Talk:History of the Jews in Poland

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Were the Jews expelled in 1968?[edit]

"1968 Polish political crisis" describes Jewish applications to emigrate. I understand the pressure, but was anyone imprisoned, beaten, killed to emigrate against his will? Marek Edelman lost his job, his wife and son emigrated, but he didn't. Xx236 (talk) 08:44, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

Good point. The article currently uses the wording "{n 1967–1971 under economic, political and secret police pressure, over 14,000 Polish Jews were forced to leave Poland and relinquish their Polish citizenship.[238] Officially, they were expelled to Israel. However, only about 4,000 actually went there; most settled throughout Europe and in the United States". Ref 238 is not verifiable online ([1]). The wording should probably be also discussed on Talk:1968 Polish political crisis, where I note the word expelled is not used. Now, setting aside popular press, which often likes to colorize and use more emotional terms, here are few sources - feel free to provide more:
Kevin McDermott; Matthew Stibbe (29 May 2018). Eastern Europe in 1968: Responses to the Prague Spring and Warsaw Pact Invasion. Springer. pp. 129–. ISBN 978-3-319-77069-7. Jews were forced into emigration
Louise Steinman (5 November 2013). The Crooked Mirror: A Memoir of Polish-Jewish Reconciliation. Beacon Press. pp. 134–. ISBN 978-0-8070-5056-9. Most Jews who remained after 1946 left in 1968, when theCommunist Partyloosed an anti-Semitic purge
Overall, I'd recommend using the phrase 'Jews left in the wave of an anti-semitic purge' or such. There are two key points: 1) there was an anti-semitic, government-supported, but non-violent purge (primarily related to mass layoffs and such, I believe) and therefore many Jews chose to emigrate, given the hostility they suddenly faced. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 14:19, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
They emigrated to rich and free countries. Similarly many ethnic Poles emigrated during martial law in Poland, but the main reason of their migration was economy.Xx236 (talk) 13:12, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
Ah - free will, eh? expelled (BBC) or purged / forced to flee (Haaretz) are commonly used by WP:RS. Left implies choice - which was absent in 1968, and is not generally used by neutral sources. It would seem that even the present Polish president - Duda - uses "driven out"[2].Icewhiz (talk) 13:20, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

John of Capistrano in Wrocław[edit]

The city wasn't named Wrocław at that time and it was a Bohemian, ethnically German one. Xx236 (talk) 09:20, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

While most Polish Jews were neutral to the idea of a Polish state[edit]

Some Jews supported Western Ukrianians or Lithuanians. Greater Poland (Posen) Jews were Germanised and some of them emigrated to Germany.Xx236 (talk) 08:45, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

Postwar Antisemitism[edit]

I was thinking about adding more information under the subsection labeled "Postwar Period". I want to discuss the animosity aimed at Jewish Poles by their fellow Poles which are tangibly seen through violence, property seizure, and systematic discrimination within the government. I am aiming to add this at the end of the subsection as there are a few sentences touching upon the subject I would like to expand upon. The source I will be using is a chapter from Jan Gross' work, Fear: Anti-Semitism in Poland after Auschwitz: An Essay in Historical Interpretation. The chapter is titled "The Unwelcoming of Jewish Survivors." Jan Gross is a strong, credible source as he is a history professor at Princeton and has been cited in this Wiki article already. [1]

The violence I intend to write about include both assault and murder, in which members of the community knew who the murderers were, but turned a blind eye. In response, Jews in Poland requested aid from the Ministry of Public Administration as well as the Ministry of Public Security through the murders of Jewish Poles.

An effect, and sometimes motive, of the killing of Jews in Poland was the property they owned. Anti-Semitic Poles benefited since they rid their local communities of Jews. In addition, lower-class/poor Poles benefited from the murdering and fleeing of Jews as it opened up more employment opportunities as well as property available. The government would take "abandoned" property ranging from synagogues to homes and distributing it among the remaining Polish population.

Lastly, I would like to address is the government's actions that discriminated Jews. An example of this is seen through the rejection of Jews as of Polish nationality due to many records and evidence being burnt or destroyed during the Holocaust. Bias in the government was present in the social infrastructure through employment discrimination and the education system.

If anybody would like to comment on my proposed changes, please let me know on this Talk page or my Talk page! Thank you.

George1738 (talk) 04:16, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

It is certainly a good point that the current article glosses over those points, some expansions along the lines you proposed is very much needed. Please note we do have a reasonably decent subarticle on that: Anti-Jewish violence in Poland, 1944–1946, which may give you further sources / ideas what to incorporate here. Finally, keep in mind that while Gross' Fear is a reliable source, it has been described by some scholars as non-neutral (check the article on the book itself for reviews). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:22, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Postwar? The war finished in UK and France, but not in Poland.
First you have to define when the war finished in Poland. Certainly not in 1945. See Anti-communist resistance in Poland (1944–1946) but in the text and up until 1953.
Second - Professor Marcin Zaremba describes situation in Poland in his book [3]. The book describes terrible conditions in Poland and sources of anti-Semitism in the Communist army and police.
Third - Gross' book has been criticized, so you are oblidged to read the critics rather than impose his opinions.
Lastly, I would like to address is the government's actions that discriminated Jews. - are you aware the structure of the government in Poland? Are you aware that several Polish leaders were Jewish - Berman, Minc, Zambrowski? They allowed the Jews to emigrate at the time when ethnic Poles were killed at the borders.
Bias in the government was present in the social infrastructure through employment discrimination and the education system. - the Communists discriminated pre-war educated people. They constructed a Communist education system, which persecuted Polish nationalists. Do you meam Jewish religious schools? The Communists fought any religion, mainly the RC Church as the strongest one.
The real conflict existed in formerly German lands, where the Jews wanted to create an autonomy, eg. in Lower Silesia, and the Communists didn't allow it.[4]
Everything was nationalised, not only Jewish businesses. Landowners were not only disposessed but also expelled from their homelands.

Xx236 (talk) 07:38, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Expansion would be DUE. Gross is generally a top-notch source - considered to be on of the best in his generation by most scholars - criticism of his work is mainly limited to Polish media and nationalists - while widely accepted by mainstream academia. Icewhiz (talk) 07:56, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Icewhiz, please learn the subject and return.
Gross isn't even a historian, he was a sociologist, now retired. His main work The Neighbours isn't academic, it's rather a morality essay. Gross wasn't interested in basic facts like the number of Jewish victims in Jedwabne. The book misinfoms - there were many pogroms in the region, some of them more obvious than Jedwabne, please read Anna Bikont. The 1941 pogroms consisted maybe 1% of all pogroms in the area Romania-Estonia. Now everyone knows Jedwabne, but ignores Kaunas, Romanian state crimes, Petlura days in Lviv and many, many others, please see [5]. Xx236 (talk) 08:11, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
This Wikipedia knows the book Fear: Anti-Semitism in Poland after Auschwitz and lists academic critics of it.Xx236 (talk) 08:27, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Paweł Machcewicz, frequently attacked by Polish nationalists, has published a critics of the book [6].Xx236 (talk) 08:29, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
I agree with Icewhiz. Gross's Fear is accepted enough by mainstream academia that it can be used as a source for Wikipedia. It's ok that there are critiques too - it doesn't discredit it as a source. Fear garnered far less criticism than Neighbors did. Also, most American scholarship on Polish anti-Semitism has its share of Polish critics - that doesn't mean it shouldn't be used on Wikipedia. As a compromise, George1738, how about adopt Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus's idea - acknowledge that Gross has his critics. The section still deserves to be there. I also agree with Xx236that using the term "government" is fuzzy when some in the government were Jewish. Gross acknowledges that but you don't as much.
In this addition, George1738, please use clean writing (noun-verb agreement!). And some of your statements are oddly discombobulated. E.g. Anti-Semitic Poles benefited since they rid their local communities of Jews - that's an almost anti-Semitic statement; explain why they stood to benefit - because they took over the Jews' property.Chapmansh (talk) 22:45, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
Gross is only accepted by Jewish/Israeli media, not the overall mainstream media. One country does not represent entire academia views. It’s evident you’re attwmoting to push your point of views of him and publish them as fact. -2600:1001:B116:91A6:306F:ED57:5BDF:7A1D (talk) 18:30, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
  • I've moved this below Chapmansh's response, as it was in the middle of their response. Shalor (Wiki Ed) (talk) 19:30, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
Just to stress the degree to which this is mainstream (outside of very narrow ethno nationalist criticism) - Fear per google scholar has been cited 382 times in an academic setting since being published in 2007 - the amount of citations indicates mainstream acceptance - it would be nearly unthinkable to write an academic journal (mainstream journal) paper on post-war Jews in Poland without citing Fear.Icewhiz (talk) 04:38, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
Icewihiz formulates a very critical opinion of academic mainstream ignorance of Western writers. They don't know the subject, they just copy Fear with all its pros and cons. One should know Zaremba's book. It's interesting that biased books are translated into English, the one isn't, probably not biased enough?Xx236 (talk) 09:12, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
Gross' book is best discussed on its talk page, but I agree it is a reliable source - through he does not represent the middle-ground, and an attempt to portray him as such is problematic. He represents a side in the ongoing academic discussion, no less more biased than others mentioned (ex. 'Polish nationalists'). In the middle are scholars who recognize that the neutral take lies in between such extremes. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:39, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Hi! I'm working with George1738's class and wanted to drop in on this discussion. From what I can see, here are the main concerns brought up so far:
  1. Xx236 is disputing the remarks about when the war ended in Poland, as well as the one about the government being biased.
  2. The Gross source has been criticized and is viewed as non-neutral by at least some academics.
  3. George1738's prospective addition needs to be clarified a bit more.
With this in mind, here are my suggestions for resolution:
  1. Any controversial claims will be attributed to the individual making them, unless it's something that is seen as an uncontested and uncontroversial factual assertion per WP:WikiVoice.
  2. Additional secondary sources will be used along with the Gross source.
  3. George1738's plan is to work on this in his sandbox and will generally cover anti-Jewish violence in Poland under Communist rule. It will discuss the following points:
  • The types of and reasons for violence experienced by the Jewish people. This will include reasons/theories put forth by scholars.
  • Claims of governmental bias by scholars studying this time period.
If anyone has recommendations for sourcing that would be seen as in the middle, that would be awesome. The student will of course be searching for this as well, but some guidance would be definitely appreciated. George1738, a good starting point for this would be to look at the sourcing in the article on Anti-Jewish violence in Poland, 1944–1946, as well as some of the sourcing already used in the post-war section of this article. Shalor (Wiki Ed) (talk) 17:58, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
  • I also want to stress that the student will only be summarizing any claims or theories posed by scholars in the source material. Shalor (Wiki Ed) (talk) 18:01, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
    I would caution again using Anti-Jewish violence in Poland, 1944–1946 as a POV/acceptable source yardstick - that article has severe problems, not least of which is extensive use of a far-right activist/historian, widely accused of antisemitism, designated by the SPLC, who is generally seen as fringe and who has been effectively blacklisted in modt English language journals.Icewhiz (talk) 18:16, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
    And I would caution you against pushing your own personal views and attempting to submit them as fact. You claim that Gross is universally accepted in academia. That is simply not true, he is only seen as such in Israeli/Jewish circles. It’s evident you are just taking what’s from his book and attempting to pass it off as fact whilst ignoring his Anti-Polish bias. There’s a clear reason why he is only seen as a historian in Israel and Canada and not thoughout Central and Eastern Europe. Icewhiz, I recommend you do your research. You have quite a bit to to do. The rhetoric of one people/country does not represent the mainstream/international overall view. -2600:1001:B10D:19D1:CD21:E0C4:D1B4:B681 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:49, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
    Unlike our SPLC designated historian/far-right activist whose mention drew this vitrol, Gross's works are widely cited in English language books and journals. Also in German language (Central Europe usually) for that matter. I am not sure how "Jewish" (or Israeli for that matter) labelling academic authors is relevant, however Gross has been widely cited by non-Jewish authors as can be readily seen by scolling down the rather impressive citation list in google scholar. Criticism of Gross has been limited for the most part to very certain circles in Poland, that carry very little academic weight.Icewhiz (talk) 19:00, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
    Quoting the alleged Ogień diary isn't academic.Xx236 (talk) 09:35, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
  • (I'm also Shalor (Wiki Ed), but have switched accounts since this is more general and not specific to the student.) Please remember to assume good faith! The Gross source is pretty widely cited, at least from what I see via Google Scholar, so it doesn't seem like Icewhiz is trying to push a personal agenda offhand. Rather than assuming that any one person has an agenda to skew the coverage to not highlight the views predominantly held in scholarly literature, a good alternative here is to suggest alternative sources that better represent the middle/moderate ground and mainstream views so that they can be discussed. ReaderofthePack(formerly Tokyogirl79) (。◕‿◕。) 19:06, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Back to my main account, I'm going to bring up this source at the reliable sources noticeboard since there's so much discussion over this. Shalor (Wiki Ed) (talk) 19:23, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
    • @Shalor (Wiki Ed): I didn't realize this was going to be edited as part of an educational assignment, nice. Regarding your points above. 1) The war ended in 1945, this is hardly disputed by anyone, through anti-communist resistance (see cursed soldiers) continued in Poland for several years. A few scholars etc. occasionally make an argument that for countries occupied by the Soviets the war didn't end, but it is a rhetorical and minority argument; see List of Polish wars for info on post-1945 conflicts. Bottom line, for most Poles, war ended in 1945. For a few, it didn't. 2) Gross is a perfectly reliable source, and can and should be widely used - with the understanding that there are no such things as neutral sources (per WP:NPOV). Gross represents one of the sides in the ongoing debate and some of his findings have been challenged by other reliable historians; I won't bother listing sources critical of him here because we have nice articles about his books which attribute both praise and criticism. Let me stress that I fully support using Gross as a reliable source - I am just cautioning that Gross is not the ultimate and final authority on the subject, he has his biases too. "Additional secondary sources will be used along with the Gross source." is a very good idea. Lastly, when expanding this article (and I agree expansion is needed) please keep WP:UNDUE and WP:NPOV in mind, and note that excessive details may be moved to the Anti-Jewish violence in Poland, 1944–1946 subarticle. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:30, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
There is an academic book "Civil war or new occupation. Poland after 1944" edited by Ajnenkiel. [7] Xx236 (talk) 09:49, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
Zaremba describes the horrors of the period in his book. He has also criticized one of Gross' books as ignoring the context. The Anti-Jewish violence was one of many. Zaremba quotes an example of plunderning victims of a train accident.[8] The number of Roman Catholics killed in the period was much bigger than the number of killed Jews. Germans and Ukrainians were also killed or mistreated.Xx236 (talk) 09:56, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
I fully agree with everything Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus wrote. I will personally add an additional peer-reviewed secondary source alongside Gross's source, once George1738 makes his additions. The fact that Germans and Ukrainians were killed or mistreated does not discredit Gross's findings or the suggested contributions. Xx236, perhaps consider adding that to German minority in Poland and Ukrainians in Poland, respectively.Chapmansh (talk) 23:46, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
I'm sorry about my Englsih, but it's difficult to summarize a 700 pages book in few lines. The post-war Poland was a terrible place in which everyone was a victim and many were criminals. Describing it as a Post-war antiisemitism is extermely biased and ignorant. Several Communist leaders were Jewish and they were co-responsible for the anarchy and state plundering of everyone, not only of the Jews. Xx236 (talk) 09:18, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
Hi again all, can I ask that when George1738 makes their contribution, it be left standing for a full day, to give me a chance to bolster it with another secondary source, as per the discussion above. Thanks.Chapmansh (talk) 23:26, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
Hi again, I added a reference to George1738's contribution, as others asked for. Since the info on violence is now more comprehensive, I made it its own sub-section, and moved into it some existing info on violence from the section Aliya Bet. Thanks!Chapmansh (talk) 22:36, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Gross, Jan T. "The Unwelcoming of Jewish Survivors" in Fear: Anti-Semitism in Poland After Auschwitz: An Essay in Historical Interpretation (New York: Random House Publishing Group, 2007), 31-80.

in the Politburo of the Polish United Worker's Party[edit]

It was the Polish Workers' Party at the beginning.Xx236 (talk) 09:38, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

"Known as paradisus iudaeorum"[edit]

This reversion restored text in our voice sourced to a musuem exhibit's description (undated, no author). This exhibit has been widely criticized - e.g. in this collection of works. This term has been described as an antisemitic phantasm,[9] and other sources make clear that while this is accepted terminology by many Poles, most Jews view Poland as one of the most anti-semtic countries,[10] to the point where "conventional wisdom of contemporary Jews, which has it that the terms Pole and anti-Semite are synonymous;".[11] David Engel, in Engel, David. "On Reconciling the Histories of Two Chosen Peoples." The American Historical Review 114.4 (2009): 914-929, enumerates how this notion of "paradisus judaeorum" has been promoted by various Polish historians and state institutions - while being rejected by most in the field. "It was known", perhaps, per actual academic sources as a "Jewish Paradise" by Catholic clergy who found the Jewish relationship with nobles as "offensive".[12]. Other sources abound on how this is at the very least an "exaggeration". I will note the discussion in Template:Did you know nominations/Heaven for the nobles, Purgatory for the townspeople, Hell for the peasants, and Paradise for the Jews in which the nominator himself struck the suggested hook of "known as". This is clearly a contested term, and we should not be stating this in our own voice. Icewhiz (talk) 10:22, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

"and other sources make clear that while this is accepted terminology by many Poles, most Jews view Poland as one of the most anti-semtic countries" - way to misrepresent sources Icewhiz. Again. The whole freakin' point of that article is that these kinds of stereotypes are wrong. So I'm not sure what your point is.
In a similar manner, the source you provide to claim "it has been widely criticized" also does not support that claim. That's a collection of various thoughts and evaluations on the exhibit, some critical, some positive, some merely reflective. I guess if you're reflexively see only those parts that fit with your POV and miss the rest, it may appear to be that way. But that's your problem, not Wikipedia's.Volunteer Marek (talk) 10:29, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
And oh yeah, you also shamelessly misrepresented the Trevor-Roper source by changing wording which was pretty close to the source to some WP:WEASEL version you yourself invented. And there does not appear to be any reason for this change of yours except that, it seems, any text or source which has something even mildly positive to say about Poland, offends you personally.Volunteer Marek (talk) 10:32, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
"Contemporary Polish-Jewish relations resemble a vicious circle. On the one hand, most Poles firmly believe that Poland has always been one of the most tolerant countries in the world and that antiSemitism has existed only on the margins of Polish society. As far as they are concerned, there has been no such phenomenon as Polish anti-Semitism, for Poland has always been a true paradisus Judeorum. On the other hand, most Jews, especially those on the American continent and in Western Europe, claim that Poland is one of the most anti Semitic countries in the world. Jews have often shared the former Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir's belief that virtually all Poles received their anti-Semitism "with their mothers' milk."" - Piotr Wróbel in [13]. Yes indeed - the view that most Poles are anti-Semites or than Poland was a "true paradisus Judeorum" - are the two polar opposite views here (Wróbel attempting to strike a middle ground) - that doesn't mean we take a highly contested view - paradisus Judeorum - and state it as fact in our voice. Icewhiz (talk) 11:03, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
But we DON'T state that "Poland has always been a true paradisus Judeorum".Volunteer Marek (talk) 11:14, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
Also:
"David Engel, in Engel, David. "On Reconciling the Histories of Two Chosen Peoples." The American Historical Review 114.4 (2009): 914-929, enumerates how this notion of "paradisus judaeorum" has been promoted by various Polish historians and state institutions" <-- No, he doesn't.
"while being rejected by most in the field" <-- Nope. He doesn't say that either.
You're once again trying to misrepresent a source.Volunteer Marek (talk) 11:32, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
No - this is a rather basic summary of Engel. Promoting, in wikivoice, a viewpoint described as an "antisemitic phantasm"[14] which is clearly disputed (and covered as a disputed viewpoint by RSes) runs counter to a whole raft of Wikipedia policies (NPOV, V, promotion of fringe material, etc.). Icewhiz (talk) 14:31, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
No, it is not anything like a "basic summary of Engel". For example, provide the part of the Engel article which supports "while being rejected by most in the field". It's just simply not in there. You made it up. And nobodys promoting any "antisemitic phantasm" in Wikivoice or otherwise, so stop insinuating personal attacks. You keep drudging out one cherry picked source by a photographer who went to an exhibition and it didn't quite like it but ... so what?
Provide text from Engel source which actually supports the stuff you're trying to add or stop making stuff up.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:40, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

───────────────────────── May I suggest a compromise. Icewhiz, your proposed change—"considered by some as a tolerant society"—is simply not supported by the sources. Your focus and chief complaint, however, seem to be the 20th century. The sentence is not about 20th-century Poland but 16th-century Poland. During the centuries in which country after country in Europe expelled the Jews, Poland welcomed them. That's a fact not disputed by any reputable scholar. Yes, things weren't perfect, and many people look at the past with rose-colored glasses, but for centuries Poland was the best place in Europe—perhaps the best place on earth—for the Jews. Poland and Lithuania were the center of the Jewish world for centuries. Things got bad during the 20th century, but it's absurd to rewrite the lead section to conform to your obsession with recent history.

"The sentence is not about 20th-century Poland but 16th-century Poland" - EXACTLY!!! Icewhiz is trying to pull a little bit of false equivocation here. He's pretending, falsely, that the text under dispute makes claims about 20th century Poland, even though he knows damn well that the text is about 16th century Poland. He then trudges out sources about 20th century Poland, misrepresents them in more ways than one, and then pretends that this allows him to remove info about 16th century problem. WP:TENDENTIOUS to a, well, a "T".Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:40, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

Anyway, my suggestion is that we remove the phrase "Known as paradisus iudaeorum" from the subsequent sentence until the conflict at that article settles, at which time we revisit the question of whether the phrase belongs. — MShabazz Talk/Stalk 17:52, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

The origin of the 1606 "paradisus judaeorum" is an antisemitic polemic saying Jews had it "too good". I am OK with your suggested compromise.Icewhiz (talk) 18:30, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
I see no reason to remove it just because Icewhiz manages to engage in disruptive behavior on more than one article at a time. He's wrong about it there. He's wrong about it here. Shrug and move on.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:40, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
Sources have been provided. We can not say in our voice what some see as an antisemitic phantasm, [1] and when it is clear this Polish POV is opposed by most Jews.[2] Using a much maligned exhibit - Emblematic here is the criticism against one of the most distinguished experts on the history of Jews in Poland in the modern period, Moshe Rosman. He was accused of “Polinizng” the history of Jews in Poland by promoting a false and ideologized version of it with the myth of Poland as a “paradise of tolerance.” The criticism pertaining to the somewhat unfortunate name of the gallery dedicated to the history of Jews in the 16th and 17th centuries (until Khmel-nytsky Uprising), “Paradisus Judeorum,” is justifed. The name “Paradise for Jews” is given without quotation marks there. Visitors to the Museum do not have an opportunity to learn from the exhibition that its title is taken from an anti-Jewish text, which claims that the good living conditions Jews enjoyed in Poland were something that should change (Tokarska-Bakir, 2016, pp. 49–58).[3] - as a source is obscene. "was known" is WP:WEASEL phrasing. To whom was it known as such? Not to Jews in Poland. In the 16th and 17th centuries it was described as such by antisemitic clergy that argued Jews had it "too good" and who saw the Jewish position as offensive to the church.Icewhiz (talk) 01:16, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
" Sources have been provided." - if by that you mean that you added citations which referenced some sources - like for example David Engel - which do NOT say anything like you claim they say, then yeah, I guess so. But here's the thing. It's not enough to "provide sources". The source you provide have to actually say what you claim they say. You made stuff up about David Engel's source. In that source he actually agrees with the description of 16th century Poland as paradisus iudaeorum, although he notes it was an exaggeration. Yet, you've been pretending, falsely and dishonestly, that Engel says the opposite.
Like wise - here you use a false edit summary. No "sources" do not refer to it as an "antisemitic phantasm". ONE, single, cherry picked source, from a photographer refers to it as such. The author is not notable for matters relevant to history. And it's just one source. It is also false that "Other sources clearly assert most Jews disagree with this Polish POV". You're equivocating (and what the fuck is "Polish POV" anyway? is there some manual or something? You are once again engaging in ethnic attacks and giving free rein to your prejudicial proclivities) between the 16th century and 20th century. Yes, I'm sure most Jews, and many Poles don't think of interwar Poland as "paradise for Jews". But that is NOT what the text claims. We are talking about the 16th century! And most sources, including most Jewish ones support this description in some degree (as Malik already informed you).
As for your opinion piece about Polin or the fact that the phrase has its origins in an anti-semitic poem - you do realize that you are trying to (mis)use this source to accuse Jewish organizers of the exhibition of propagating "antisemitic phantasm" (or whatever you call it), right??? And this isn't an article about the Polin exhibit. It's about History of Jews in Poland, including in 16th century. And that phrase, regardless of its origins, came to mean something else over time. That's what happens to phrases over hundreds of years.
Please stop misrepresenting sources. Please stop using false edit summaries. Please stop making shit up.Volunteer Marek (talk) 03:41, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
I've reverted per WP:BLPREMOVE, as Engel says nothing of the sort. He quotes Kutrzeba as well as saying that "Kutrzeba and his colleague Franciszek Bujak may have been among the first modern historians to employ the expression seriously as a more or less accurate description of the Jewish situation in old Poland". He does not reach such a conclusion himself - in fact, he provides several opposing views by historians. Icewhiz (talk) 07:34, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
Nonsense. Engel says almost EXACTLY this. Indeed, I had trouble writing the sentence in a way which would satisfy a high standard of being true to the source (since I anticipated that you'd come and try to make up some false excuse to remove it) while at the same time not repeating it word for word.
Engel (not Kutrzeba, please stop pretending otherwise!) says in reference to the label that it was a, quote, "more or less accurate description of the Jewish situation in old Poland"
Article text says: "Historians, such as David Engel have described the label paradisus iudaeorum (Latin for "Paradise of the Jews") as a "more or less accurate description of the Jewish situation" in Poland at this time"
This is about as close as you can get to the source without committing copyvio.
Stop making stuff up and using false edit summaries. Stop trying to misrepresent sources.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:53, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
And again - how many times does it have to be pointed out before you at least acknowledge it - he does not "provide several opposing views by historians" in regard to WHETHER the label was true or not. He does discuss the disagreement between various groups of (Jewish) historians as to whether the fact that it WAS a "paradisus judaeorum" was due to "proclivity of the Polish nation for tolerance or liberty" or due to "mutual advantage stemming from meshing of interests". Neither side disputed - nor does the general literature on the subject - that the term reflect reality of 16th century Poland, even if it employed some hyperbole. This has already been pointed out to you repeatedly, most recently by Malik above.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:59, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Janicka, Elżbieta (2016-12-28). "The Embassy of Poland in Poland: The Polin Myth in the Museum of the History of Polish Jews (MHPJ) as narrative pattern and model of minority-majority relations [Ambasada Polski w Polsce. Mit Polin w Muzeum Historii Żydów Polskich jako wzór narracji i model relacji mniejszość-większość]". Studia Litteraria et Historica. 0 (5): 1–43. doi:10.11649/slh.2016.003. ISSN 2299-7571.
  2. ^ Wrobel, Piotr. "Double memory: Poles and Jews after the Holocaust." East European Politics and Societies 11.3 (1997): 560-574. quote: Contemporary Polish-Jewish relations resemble a vicious circle. On the one hand, most Poles firmly believe that Poland has always been one of the most tolerant countries in the world and that antiSemitism has existed only on the margins of Polish society. As far as they are concerned, there has been no such phenomenon as Polish anti-Semitism, for Poland has always been a true paradisus Judeorum. On the other hand, most Jews, especially those on the American continent and in Western Europe, claim that Poland is one of the most anti Semitic countries in the world. Jews have often shared the former Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir's belief that virtually all Poles received their anti-Semitism "with their mothers' milk."
  3. ^ Kijek, Kamil. "For whom and about what? The Polin Museum, Jewish historiography, and Jews as a “Polish cause”." Studia Litteraria et Historica 6 (2017).
Only a minority of scholars find this term problematic. That said, it's likely more neutral and clear to use the term "Golden Age of Jews". --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:27, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

substantially poorer and less integrated than the Jews in most of Western Europe[edit]

The phrase is typical for this page - an unexplained detail, out of its hitorical context, poorly sourced.
  • This statement is unsourced.
  • It's generally true but it suggests that the Poles made the Jews poor and didn't allow them to integrate.
  • The Jews were less integrated because of history of Poland - during the division Greater Poland Jews Germanized and Lithuanian Jews Russified. Many Jews were Orthodox, who refused to integrate.
  • Polish people were substantially poorer than people in most of Western Europe, because of the above mentioned history of division of Poland. The Kingdom of Galicia and Lodomeria was one of the poorest regions of Europe.
  • The Western Europe included Nazi Germany, with its anti-Semitic legal system. Austria and Czechia were annected by Germany. Xx236 (talk) 10:06, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Aliyah Bet[edit]

Is this a correct title for the section? That article states that it was a name for "illegal immigration by Jews, most of whom were Holocaust survivors[1] and refugees from Nazi Germany[2], to Mandatory Palestine between 1934-48". And our article is about Poland. At the very least, this section should be renamed to English (only Jewish historians and history geeks know what Aliyah Bet was). I propose 'Immigration to Israel'. Or 'Immigration to Mandate Palestine', perhaps. Thoughts? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:44, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Aliyah Bet is the COMMONNAME. However our section also describes "A second wave of Jewish emigration (50,000) took place during the liberalization of the Communist regime between 1957 and 1959 (which is not Aliyah Bet - which ended in 1948) and Some Polish Communists of Jewish descent actively participated in the establishment of the communist regim..., For those Polish Jews who remained, the rebuilding of Jewish life in Poland was carried out between October 1944 and 1950 .... - which is not about immigration. Pre-1948 immigration is to Mandatory Palestine (Israel did not exist - nor was it clear that Israel would be the chosen name - it was far from an obvious choice pre-1948 (irony of history - Jews prior to 1948 identified as Palestinians, while Arabs were more likely to subscribe to a pan-Arab (non-local) identity - post-1948 the meaning of Palestinian switched) - not Israel. Post 1948 immigration is to Israel. All this being said, I would retitle the section to 1945-1966 or something similar (since it isn't just immigration). Icewhiz (talk) 13:18, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Polish and Jewish views regarding one another[edit]

This article suffers from a framing problem, as Polish Jews redirect here. But as long as it is 'history of', we should stick to history. I have moved Polish and Jewish views about one another to Polish-Jewish relations. It's notable information, but it doesn't belong here. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:51, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Even if there is a proper spin-off article, some content should remain here as Polish-Jewish counter-views are obviously relevant to the History of the Jews in Poland (being the two major protagonists in the historical narrative). Icewhiz (talk) 09:34, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Arthur Rubinstein - UNO[edit]

I believe that Rubinstein's 1945 UNO performance deserves to be mentioned.Xx236 (talk) 08:57, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Antisemitism in Poland[edit]

Seems like a notable topic that currently just redirects here. This illustrates the problem with this article - a number of 'big issues' redirect here, instead of having their own articles. This is just a history of article. Polish Jews or such is another big topic that begs to be created and has been doing so for years. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:58, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Polish Antisemitism is a major issue in Jewish history in Poland. In any event - significant content would remain here. As long as we don't spin this article off - and they remain merged - historical antisemitism should remain here. Icewhiz (talk) 09:31, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
What about Jewish anti-Polonism/Anti-Christianism? An example:
https://www.thejc.com/comment/comment/yehuda-bauer-and-laurence-weinbaum-on-polish-jewish-israeli-relations-1.459418
Jonny Daniels is described as an useful idiot. Xx236 (talk) 11:42, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
Ann Applebaum defends Poland in a strange way How come this poll didn't include *western* Europe? More Jews murdered in France lately than Poland - but no Jew has been murdered in Poland.Xx236 (talk) 11:45, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
Not sure where you are quoting Applebaum from, but one would have to adjust such rates per the presently (very small) population in Poland (some 3,200 souls in 2016, compared to some 460,000 in France). As for the cited JC source, I'm uncertain what you are referring to, the sole reference (I see) to this there is - "To be sure, certain elements in Poland were delighted to receive this ammunition from those misguided Israelis, as it only reinforced their twisted theories about some visceral Jewish “anti-Polonism” and could be used in their own anti-Jewish screeds." - which refers to twisted theories held by certain Polish elements. Icewhiz (talk) 11:51, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Is it reliable?[edit]

http://www.taubephilanthropies.org/files/assets/pdf/2012/Timeline_1000years.pdf Xx236 (talk) 09:11, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

A publication by Taube Foundation for Jewish Life & Culture. Probably ok, but not as good as proper academic research. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:32, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

Since 1989[edit]

This section is very poor. Of course, writing about modern history is not easy, but I think there are some decent sources out there. At the same time, since Polish-Jewish relations are occasionally (...) controversial, there's lot of biased stuff that we have to be careful on whether to include here. Some of this is related to recent Israel-Polish relations. The main elephant in the room is the discourse on antisemitism in Poland. I strongly recommend that editors interested in the latter issue first help to create this badly needed article instead of using this 'history of' as a POVfork. Now, instead of polemic about how much antisemitism there is in modern Poland (which our discussions too often dance around or turn to), I'd like to ask editors to list good sources that we could use to expand this section. Academic studies of modern, post-1989 community would be best. Neutral international news pieces like [15] are ok, but news<scholarly sources. Government sources like [16] tend to be a bit partisan and POVed. There's a bit content in YIVO on post-1989 but proprtionally, very little: [17]. World Jewish Congress page has some information ([18]) through presumably it gets updated and not archived properly so it is not a stable source. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:12, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Events since 1989 are historical as well, and some content should be here as well. Mainline English sources writing on post-1989 Polish antisemitism are quite obviously relevant to this article - as well as possibly other articles. Icewhiz (talk) 09:32, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
They are unrelevant because of their obvious bias. There are people who instrumentally use antisemitism and other minority issues. Recent research shows that antisemitism exists in Western Europe, rather than in Poland. The only antisemitic attack in Poland was done byt a mentally ill person. Thousands of Israeli citizens ask for Polish citizenship and/or visit Poland. Israeli youth is indoctrinated and terrorised by Israeli guides/bodyguards to prevent informal contacts with Polish youth. Xx236 (talk) 11:36, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
"There are people who instrumentally use antisemitism and other minority issues." Why do I get the feeling that you are justifying the mass deletion of sourced content by expressing your distaste for minorities? Does "these people" refer to Jews? Jonney2000 (talk) 19:13, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
I mean people, who "instrumentally use antisemitism and other minority issues' in Poland, in media, politics and academy. Examples I know - Stefan Zgliczyński, Grzegorz Krzywiec. Xx236 (talk) 08:22, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
So - two historians, based in Poland, that subscribe to the mainstream historical view on minorities in Poland? Icewhiz (talk) 08:42, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
What is the 'mainstream historical view on minorities in Poland'? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:18, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
No "people" are perfect and unbiased. Just something to keep in mind. Jewish POV needs to be represented in this article, obviously. But it is still a POV. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:13, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
"People"..... Is far from unbiased. That aside - Polish antisemitism is not a question of POV, but an historical reality (pre and post 1989) - the sole disagreement between mainstream scholars being the extent. WaPo is most certainly not a "Jewish POV". For recentish events - news coverage is often OK, and for events within the past 5 years - often the main available source. Icewhiz (talk) 06:51, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
I agree up to WaPo, because - what is WaPo? I don't get this abbreviation :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:18, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
WaPo is The Washington Post. NYT is The New York Times. WSJ is The Wall Street Journal. BBC, well, they just just go by BBC most of the time (and not The British Broadcasting Corporation) - perhaps their trend will catch on. :-). Icewhiz (talk) 11:50, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
I tentatively agree - with a note that such writing has been and is still missing from this article. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:23, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Jews who somehow survived the Holocaust often discovered that their homes had been looted or destroyed[edit]

  • Who looted or destroyed Jewish homes? It was in Poland so a non-Polish reader may belive that only Poles did it. The biggest ghetto (Warsaw) was looted and destroyed by Germans, like many others.
  • Sometimes Polish refugees inhabited Jewish homes. German transferred millions of Polish gentiles, both long distance and inside cities. The biggest expulsion was in 1944 from Warsaw, about 500 000.
  • Jewish belongings were confiscated by Germany. Looting of Jewish belongings was generally illegal, looters were imprisoned or killed. ~
  • Hundreds of thousands of gentile homes were looted or destroied. Xx236 (talk) 08:30, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Polish passports[edit]

I'm not sure if the passports are issued to 1968 emigrants only. [19] Xx236 (talk) 11:43, 2 January 2019 (UTC)