Talk:History of the Jews under Muslim rule
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- 1 Untitled
- 2 What's the problem?
- 3 PS
- 4 NPOV
- 5 Anti Religious?
- 6 NPOV
- 7 So-called fixes
- 8 Eureka...
- 9 Moved page
- 10 Agree with the Change
- 11 Removed the following ...
- 12 OR from lead
- 13 Whither the Arab Jew?
- 14 Bat Yeor and "dhimmi"
- 15 Kurdistan
- 16 NPOV
- 17 A broken link to "Hidden Jew"
- 18 Leon Poliakov reference
- 19 Citation errors in Middle Ages section
- 20 Roman Catholic Inquisition, in Spain
- 21 External links modified
The section I have marked as NPOV is quite biased and presents a lot of info (esp. regarding Jewish tribes of Medina) out of context.Bless sins 23:25, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
- this section also needs to reference where it is getting its info from.Bless sins 15:08, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
What's the problem?
I'm not sure what point-of-view problem "Bless Sins" finds in this section. If he outlines it specifically I'm happy to make some editions. As for sources, I note that its Albert Hourani (the Great Arab historian) as well as the Cambridge History of Islam. I figure I'm on pretty solid historical ground. But, I'm willing to be wrong... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Varangian (talk • contribs) 21:55, 14 January 2007 (UTC).
Oh, and I used Bernard Lewis as an additional source. Note the "history" page.
This article has a very strong anti-religious POV. This must be fixed. 22.214.171.124 10:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Plus the article is full of nonsense: Such as "prohibitions against proselytizing and marrying Muslim women" being called a mistreatment. With Jewry being completely religious at that point of time such a statement shows a misleading liberal anti-religious POV. The mistreatment of the Gaonim would on the other hand a more accurate statement. 126.96.36.199 11:01, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
The comment (written not by me) in the introduction on the nature of Dhimmi status was indeed a bit silly--and I have fixed this. But my question is this: in the section of Jews in the Arabian peninsula, where is the "anti-religious bias". Very easy to criticise, dear interlocutor, but you must either provide a citation of what you think is wrong, or do it your self. I cannot read your mind. If you wish to criticise, please at least be constructive.
Varangian 22:57, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Here is an excerpt from Wikipedia's own guidelines on NPOV disputes:
"If you come across an article whose content does not seem to be consistent with Wikipedia's NPOV policy, use one of the tags below to mark the article's main page. Then, on the article's talk page, make a new section entitled "NPOV dispute [- followed by a section's name if you're challenging just a particular section of the article and not the article as a whole]". Then, under this new section, clearly and exactly explain which part of the article does not seem to have a NPOV and why. Make some suggestions as to how one can improve the article. Be active and bold in improving the article."
So, please help me out with the suggestions. Perhaps (and I note that I am only responsible for the Arabian Peninsula section) I am missing something--I am willing to be put right. But I need to know what you perceive as anti-religious.
Varangian 23:04, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Anti-religion? more like anti-islam, this should be titled 'Muslim persecution of the Jew through the Ages', not 'Jews under Muslim rule', nowhere does it mention the freedom the jews lived under Muslim rule compared to the general persecution they recieved else where, no the safe havens offered. this article is a blatant attempt at inciting tensions, that frnakly dont need any help, between muslims and jews. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 11:51, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
I've added a bunch of references that I hope suit you "Bless Sins". I'm having trouble with embedding the references but I'm sure someone will help me with that. I have also removed the NPOV marker not to start a flame war, but because I have added the citations you suggested, and because you have not yet indicated what specific NPOV faults there might be.
Varangian 16:43, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Okay, references in properly. Sorry about all that. Varangian 16:52, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
The previous name can be misinterperted to mean that Muslims always owed these lands which will lead to pov issues. Its better to strictly phrase it as under Muslim rule, because it went back and forth throughout history (Iran wasn't always Muslim, neither was Turkey).
Guy Montag 03:45, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Agree with the Change
I agree completely with the renaming of the page. It makes more sense in terms of thematic organisation. Varangian 11:06, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Removed the following ...
Several decades ago, popular Moroccan society itself was deeply anti-Semitic; whether it still is and if so to what degree is not known. This is language hardly suitable for an encyclopaedia article, especially when there are no polls or other reliable sources to substantiate this daring claim. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 19:26, 27 February 2007 (UTC).
OR from lead
As such, they were entitled to limited rights, tolerance, and protection, on the condition they pay a special poll tax (the "jizya"), which exempted them from military service, and also from payment of the Zakat alms tax required of Muslims. As dhimmi, Jews were typically subjected to several restrictions and mistreatments, the application and severity of which varied by time and place. Conversely, they sometimes attained high positions in government, notably as viziers and physicians. Jewish communities, like Christian ones, were typically constituted as semi-autonomous entities managed by their own laws and leadership, who carried the responsibility for the community towards the Muslim rulers. The treatment of Jews in Muslim lands was generally better than that in Europe. As a result, many Jews sought refuge in Muslim ruled Middle East and North Africa (Maghreb) from persecution in Europe.
I am removing the following because it is original research, and selective POV forking from the Dhimmi article. This article is about history (grantit it needs expansion), not necessarily the treatment of muslims under the system of dhimmi. If the reader is intrested in how jews were treated there is an entire article that covers this content, and that is the dhimmi article. No need to fill the lead with this repeated POV forking from that article.--SefringleTalk 06:17, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Whither the Arab Jew?
There was a section here on Jews in the Arabian peninsula that has been moved to the page titled "Arab Jews", which is fine but there ought to be a link to it.
Also, the time lines given in this article are bumff. How is the 19th century "Pre-Modern"? This is, in all definitions of the historical profession, "Modern", with "early modern" being from 17th to 18th c. And why does it only start in the 1600 hundreds when Jews lived under Muslim rule from the 6th century onwards? Varangian —Preceding comment was added at 11:48, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Bat Yeor and "dhimmi"
This article is extremely one-sided. It reads as "history of Muslim persecution of Jews". While we should not whitewash or edit out that history, there are plenty of other dimensions of the Jewish historical experiences in Muslim lands that are completely missing. I am, therefore, adding an NPOV tag to the article. BobFromBrockley (talk) 11:48, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- If you'd care to expand the article to cover some of these other dimensions and can cite sources, please go ahead. In the meantime, let's take care to distinguish between NPOV articles and incomplete articles. 220.127.116.11 (talk) 23:19, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
Towards the end of the "Muslim Conquest section", there is a paragraph:
During the reign of the third Caliph of Islam Uthman, Abdullah ibn Saba' a Hidden Jew divided the Muslim nation into two sects Sunni and Shia.
The Hidden Jew is a reference to another wikipedia page which is non-existent. I would of removed it myself, but it seems like it's missing someone. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 09:56, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
Leon Poliakov reference
Under the heading "Middle Ages" the article states:
"During early Islam, Leon Poliakov writes, Jews enjoyed great privileges, and their communities prospered. There was no legislation or social barriers preventing them from conducting commercial activities. Commercial and craft guilds did not exist like the ones in Europe. Jewish people under Islamic Rule were no longer excluded from any specific profession and this helped lessen their negative stigma"
Although it is correct that Léon Poliakov did indeed state this in the work referenced in the article, it is also claimed by Ibn Warraq (October 2013) that:
"However, when he (Léon Poliakov) was in his eighties, he came into contact with the work of Bat Ye’or on the dhimmis, or the plight, persecution and periodic massacres of non-Muslims under Islam, and changed his mind completely."
Ibn Warraq claims that this was communicated to him by "Personal communication from Bat Ye’or".
Not sure what the status of this is or whether some note regarding this needs to be included in the article.
Any advice appreciated. Thanks.
Citation errors in Middle Ages section
Under the section titled "Middle Ages" the following citation errors exist:
"In North Africa, there were cases of violence against Jews in the Middle Ages, and in other Arab lands including Egypt, Syria."
- The links for 14, 15, and 16 lead to pages that speak nothing of the treatment of Jews in Muslim lands during the Middle Ages; therefore, they have no relevance to the section. Unless reliable sources can be provided, I want to remove this section.
- Also, all 3 citations use jewishvirtuallibrary.org. More citation variety in evidencing and legitimizing the statement's point would be ideal, but at the very least, as expressed above, the citations should be replaced with relevant sources that discuss Jews in Muslim lands during Middle Ages.
"In 1465, Arab mobs in Fez slaughtered thousands of Jews, leaving only 11 alive, after a Jewish deputy vizier treated a Muslim woman in an offensive manner. The killings touched off a wave of similar massacres throughout Morocco."
- The source for 23 has been removed, therefore, the citation should be removed itself.
- You are right. This article is in a terrible state. Drastic surgery is needed. For a start, articles from JVL which do not identify an author who is an acknowledged expert must be removed. JVL is a propaganda site whose mostly anonymous articles are written from a political position. The essay of Bennet is a slam-dunk WP:RS violation. Etc. Zerotalk 03:13, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
Roman Catholic Inquisition, in Spain
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