Talk:Holocaust denial

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Notable Holocaust Revisionists[edit]

I saw David Cole was missing from the list of notable and famous revisionist. I was going to add him but then I saw that things need to discussed in the talk page first. So here's the discussion :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 16:00, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

In 2007 Smith was successful in getting screen his holocaust denial film, El Gran Tabu, at the Mexico Corto Creativo 07 Film Festival in Baja.[r 1][r 2], of which Jewish holocaust denier, David Cole (holocaust revisionist) was active in producing during his years in hiding.[r 3] — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 13:44, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
Reflist for Notable Holocaust Revisionists
  1. ^
  2. ^
  3. ^

Edited by Mathglot (talk) 01:09, 23 April 2015 (UTC) to add reflist and 'group' param to refs in this section, to prevent them from sorting confusingly to bottom of page under some other Talk section.
Edited by Mathglot (talk) 03:33, 23 April 2015 (UTC) to tweak style and Reflist section name.

"For this reason, Holocaust denial is considered to be an antisemitic[10] conspiracy theory"[edit]

I take issue with this bold, black-and-white claim; I think it marginalizes those who don't see the theories of the Holocaust being false as inherently antisemitic. I tried to add "widely" before "considered", but Tarc twice reverted my change. This isn't just Tezero and his invisible army of Holocaust denial sympathizers - if you'll notice, to anyone reading, even the section "Holocaust denial and antisemitism" uses the word "widely" right away and cites numerous examples of scholars who disagree. I really think that the simple phrase "is considered" as it's used stands only as a slap in the face to Holocaust deniers and their sympathizers: "Ha ha, you're wrong and everyone knows it. Even Wikipedia isn't going to afford your view any real estate here. Go cry all the way home to Stormfront." Tezero (talk) 23:14, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

"Go cry all the way home to Stormfront" is precisely the message to send here. Tarc (talk) 01:11, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
Why? If you think Holocaust denial is inherently antisemitic, then it should follow that we shouldn't advocate against it, because that's an ideology and Wikipedia doesn't take a position on such things. Go cry all the way home to the JIDF; how about that? Tezero (talk) 03:57, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
I consider it to be more akin to pedophilia, really. Some beliefs just don't get a say or a voice in this project, sport. Sorry. Tarc (talk) 04:15, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
I'm proud that you're secure in your teleiophilia. However, Wikipedia doesn't care. Wikipedia doesn't have to agree with viewpoints, but it does have to acknowledge them. Besides, what do you mean "some beliefs"? What rule should we use? What the Western world thinks is icky? Tezero (talk) 14:58, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
When you cross one of those bright lines, as you did here, that is when you will be made aware of the rules. Run along and spruce up a Pokemon or Sonic article now. Tarc (talk) 18:56, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
I must've missed the rule that says "Wikipedia doesn't have an ideology... except against Holocaust denial and pedophilia. That shit don't fly." Sorry about that. Bright lines, indeed. Tezero (talk) 00:11, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
I oppose this adding "widely" to the lede in the manner suggested by Tezero as well. See FAQ response #1 at the top of this page. VQuakr (talk) 02:53, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
"Preponderance" doesn't cut it when there's a whole section largely about people who don't consider it to be antisemitic. If those aren't "reliable", they shouldn't be in the article at all. Tezero (talk) 03:57, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
Please read, and realize this is an (amateur) encyclopedia, not a blog or forum.HammerFilmFan (talk) 21:36, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
WP:RS only strengthens my point - there are reliable sources later in the article that question whether Holocaust denial is inherently antisemitic. It would be more like a blog or forum, in fact, to exclude these completely to phone in the assertion that no one disagrees. Tezero (talk) 07:03, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
Which reliable sources are those? Only thing I see is "Some have argued that not all Holocaust deniers are necessarily antisemitic", with precisely one example (which means the "some" has to go) -- which says one particular holocaust denier is a fool, not an antisemite. You know where the other reliable sources are in the article; I'm not finding them -- please elucidate. --jpgordon::==( o ) 16:39, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
There's another example: Walter Reich said "The primary motivation for most deniers is anti-Semitism". Tezero (talk) 21:57, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
While the article may address certain fringe opinions (that Holocaust denial isn't antisemitic) it's not wrong to unequivocally state the prevailing opinion as fact. Pedophila is a great example. "Most scholars agree that children are incapable of informed consent. For this reason, child porn is viewed as highly unethical." there doesn't need to be a "mostly" or "widely", it's viewed as antisemitic. And thanks for making me all the more confident in my choice to change it, considering it will be a "slap in the face for Holocaust deniers" (like that's a bad thing?) And while Tarc was blunt about it, I would agree this is not just something you compromise on. "If Holocaust denial isn't antisemitic, then is blood libel antisemitic? Does antisemitism even exist? Does anything exist?".
Those are stupid examples, because I'm not advocating that the charge of Holocaust denial being antisemitic be removed entirely, only that it be characterized as what it is: a majority opinion rather than an absolute, unanimous one. Tezero (talk) 21:57, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

If our refusal to be a platform for insane, hateful ideologies truly offends you, feel free to go back to Stormfront.--monochrome_monitor 21:21, 2 July 2014 (UTC) Basically, while if you deny the Holocaust there is a 0.0x10^-16th chance that you, as a person, don't hate Jews--the very act of denying the Holocaust is always hateful towards Jews, hence it is antisemitic.

Yeah, you know what? It does offend me that we can't add one fucking word to make the intro actually summarize the body text just because Wikipedia wants to make an exception to its undue weight and neutrality policies so the Jews can feel 100% safe. Oh, and I can't go "back" to Stormfront as I have no interest in joining and would probably not be accepted anyway because of my Arab and Iranian blood, but thanks. What if one said that they couldn't believe that the Holocaust had happened because they knew the Jews are too strong to be exterminated like that? Tezero (talk) 21:57, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
Get a grip eh? Your POV is showing now. Irondome (talk) 22:03, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
My POV is that accuracy > simplification. I don't despise Jews, although there's no non-clichéd way to try to demonstrate this, I think. Going by the presence of my uncommon Czech surname in official records, some of my own ancestors were killed in the Holocaust (or perhaps Jews who adopted the name). Tezero (talk) 02:57, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
I'm sorry man but if you think the holocaust didn't happen, for whatever reason, you are accusing Jews of lying (to gain sympathy.)
More than just Jews, and even for Jews, not necessarily because of their ethnicity or faith. It's like how Malcolm X continued to indict whites after his 1964 revelations because of their perceived role in subjugating minorities. Tezero (talk) 02:57, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

You have to understand that in the world nothing is ever 100%, but the amount of holocaust deniers that are antisemites is quite close. Widely is a weasel word in this context. It's supposed to be used for things like "malaria is concentrated widely in Asia and Africa". From an encyclopedic view it just doesn't work, not to mention the moral view, which is why we are so blunt about our opinions in the subject. --monochrome_monitor 00:06, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Why should Wikipedia have a moral view?
Also, I'm aware that the vast majority of Holocaust deniers, if given some kind of test of antisemitism, would "pass" it. But that doesn't mean the positions are inherently intertwined. It's like how the vast majority of Prius owners and vegetarians are (I assume) liberals - does that mean their viewpoints are inherently liberal? Tezero (talk) 02:57, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

You don't understand what I said. I said for an encyclopedic view it is wrong, and that the moral view is the reason why we insist on keeping the correct encyclopedic wording (widely is a weasel word and the Holocaust is not a place for weasel words). Your spurious comparison to Prius's only shows how out of touch you truly are. I'll repeat: Denying the Holocaust is ALWAYS antisemitic, whether or not the denier is antisemitic. For example, drawing a swastika in a Jewish cemetery is ALWAYS antisemitic, whether or not the vandal is antisemitic. You don't need to be a hateful person to do a hateful act.

I'll remind you that holocaust denial isn't as broad as revisionism. A denier never claims that 10 million Jews really died, or that Hitler was a space alien. Denial is accusing Jews of exaggerating or fabricating the evidence, claiming no gas chambers existed, etc. Holocaust deniers always presume that (and if they didn't they would be simply called revisionists) "the Holocaust wasn't as bad as they said it was" (because less people died, people were killed by natural causes, Hitler had no intent) .... Making this claim and then distorting facts to convince others of this ideology is purposefully diminishing a despicable tragedy and IS ALWAYS ANTISEMITIC.

Good day sir, if you still don't understand, then frankly there's nothing I can do to convince you. --monochrome_monitor 15:05, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Nice no-true-Scotsman fallacy; the article states itself that "revisionist" is the term Holocaust deniers use for themselves, and so there is no difference. Oh, and if "widely" is a weasel word, why does the intro still include "most" or "generally"? But really, all three of the words are fine because Wikipedia isn't supposed to take exception to controversial topics. No, you haven't convinced me. Tezero (talk) 21:18, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
I don't insist any change be made, but the article reads very differently from the usual, featured wikipedia article. In wikipedia even the best human contributions are allowed to be criticized and the worst crimes are allowed to be defended. Even Saddam is praised for some stuff! This article sounds like it is promoting an agenda, and stifling opposite views. These opposite views, however wrong, should be allowed. This is Wikipedia, not a blog. Don't give me "this is what scholars/empirical evidence/blahs says." Yes, true, and scholars are right, but wikipedia always presents wrong views as well; not as facts, but as alternative views to widely believed facts.Xullius (talk) 07:07, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
On WP, we go off of reliable sources. RS say that Holocaust denial is false and intrinsically antisemitic. So those are the views that we must emphasize on this page. Steeletrap (talk) 21:43, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

First sentence[edit]

I've just reverted this good faith change by Steeletrap (talk · contribs) to the article's first sentence as I think that it presents an overly narrow definition of what Holocaust denial is. However, it would be good to discuss possible changes. Many deniers concede that the Nazis killed very large numbers of Jews, but argue that this was nowhere near the figure of six million, was done without Hitler's knowledge and the facts around the Holocaust aren't really settled, so I'd suggest broadening the wording. The Oxford dictionary defines the term as "the belief or assertion that the Holocaust did not happen or was greatly exaggerated" ([14]), and I'd suggest that something like this might be an improvement. I note that the remainder of the first para picks this up though. Thoughts? Nick-D (talk) 09:02, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

I think the opposite: the current version--which refers to denial only as denial that there was a genocide--is too narrow You can accept that it was a genocide while still being a denier: e.g. one would be a denier if one thought it was a "genocide" but that only 500,000 Jews died. I prefer my proposed version, which calls denial denial of established facts about the Holocaust. The next sentence describes the three established facts that deniers deny: 1) deliberate extermination policy 2) that utilized gas chambers and 3) 5 to 6 (or perhaps 7) million deaths. Steeletrap (talk) 15:48, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Deleted section Notable Holocaust deniers[edit]

I boldly removed the section Notable Holocaust deniers as a duplicate of Category:Holocaust deniers. The deleted article section contained a simple list of 65 names, each name hyperlinked to an article about the individual. The category contains 99 names and one subpage.


On 00:57, 29 April 2006 User:ZZZZ created a short list of 7 people in a section entitled "Holocaust Deniers". This section slowly expanded, under various different section titles, over time, to its most recent state containing 65 names.

When the article section was created, category Holocaust Denial already contained unpopulated subpage Holocaust Deniers since category Holocaust Denial was created on 11:25, 18 August 2004 though the subpage remained empty until its population 14:12, 23 November 2006 with 99 people.

Rationale for delete[edit]

The chief rationale for the delete is to avoid the burden of having to make the same name change in two places, since any person in the list in the article should also be in the category (if supported) and the list should either be identical to the category or a subset of it. If the latter, having 65 "notable names" out of 99 "total names" seems pretty arbitrary and WP:OR--if we decide to keep the 65, who is to decide which are the notable ones? Best just to have the whole list in one place, and not make that judgment about which are notable in the article, unless, of course, we have reliable sources with verifiable claims about that that we can refer to.

An additional rationale is that we don't need a bullet list of "notables" in its own section, since many notable deniers are already included in the article itself, in the #History and development section (namely: Barnes, Hoggan, Rassinier, Faurisson, Bradley Smith, Carto Smith, Keegstra, Zundel, Nolte, Mayer, McVay, Irving and others) although not all their names appear as part of a name of a sub-section (perhaps they should?).

what about the 7 refs that were removed?[edit]

Note that the article bullet list of 65 names included seven references which also got removed. However, this is not an argument for restoring the list, as each of the six names (Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi, Harry Elmer Barnes, Bobby Fischer, Nikolaos Michaloliakos, Roeland Raes) links to an article which includes mention of their denial along with at least one reference about it, except one. The exception (Rantissi) links to an article which did not have the reference, so I checked out the reference with the intention of adding it to the Rantissi article so it wouldn't be lost. The ref is a Guardian article about The New Anti-semitism[d 1] which talks about Rantissi's antisemitism, and talks about Holocaust Denial by Hamas members, but does not actually say anywhere that Rantissi is a denier himself. So it seems to me the claim is not supported by that ref, so I did not add it to the Rantissi article. Bottom line: deleting the List from the article removes no verifiable reference about any individual person's denial status from any article of the encyclopedia.

were any names removed that were not already in the category?[edit]

I've compared the two lists, i.e., the article list of 65 against the category list of 99 and found that 19 names of the list of 65 were not in the category, and 52 of the 99 in the category are not in the list. The 19 are: Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi, Carl O. Nordling, Dariusz Ratajczak, George Lincoln Rockwell, Georges Theil, Gerald L. K. Smith, Gerd Honsik, Günter Deckert, John Kingsley Read, Jürgen Graf, Khaled Mashal, Larry Darby, Mohammed Mahdi Akef, Norman Lowell, Roger Garaudy, Salvador Abascal, Salvador Borrego, Siegfried Verbeke, and V. T. Rajshekar. I checked each article individually, and where supported, added them to the category. Results:

  • 14 added to Category:Holocaust deniers: Nordling, Ratajczak, Rockwell, Theil, Honsik, Deckert, Read, Graf, Darby, Akef, Lowell, Garaudy, Borrego, Verbeke.
  • 3 not categorized because they were not supported by the article: G. Smith, Marshal, Abascal.
  • 2 not categorized and possibly controversial:
    • Rantissi - there is a reference claiming to support his denial status[d 1], but as noted, the reference supports the denial stance of others mentioned in the article, but not Rantissi himself.
    • Rajshekar - he founded periodical Dalit Voice which has published denial articles, but they are not necessarily his views. Of a list of 26 of his publications in the article, one is antiZionist, none are specifically denial.

All names from the deleted list which can be supported as being a denier, are now categorized as such.

reasons to keep the list of names[edit]

One possible rationale to keep the list in the article, would be to give a snippet of information about each one, sort of like the basic info in a list on a disambiguation page which would help the reader decide which article they were interested in reading more about. But in that case, we'd be back to the objection of deciding which names were "Notable" or otherwise worth including in the subsection, and finding a reliable source for that.

The article could use a brief list of names in an intro paragraph[edit]

I think some kind of short set of notable names is worth having, especially for someone scanning the article, who is perhaps looking for someone's name, but can't remember it, but a long bullet list with no other info is the wrong way to do this, imho. Rather, the proper place for this is in a new, introductory paragraph to the already existing |#History and development section. This section currently has no introduction at all, but instead launches right into a discussion of Harry Barnes, without setting up any context for any of the subsections to follow. History is made by people, and imho this would be an ideal place to include not a list, but a series of names in running text embedded in an informative lead paragraph, and forming a lead-in to the subsections which follow. Something like this perhaps (I'm sure this could be improved upon):

Although the seeds were planted earlier, Holocaust Denial begain in earnest in the 1960s, and continues to the present day. Some of the major figures were American historian Harry Barnes and his protege David Hoggan, and French historian Paul Rassinier in the 1960s. They were followed by Arthur Butz and David Irving in the 1970s along with the foundation in 1978 of the the Institute for Historical Review (IHR) by Willis Carto, who also founded the magazine Barnes Review devoted to the subject, as well as Robert Faurisson in France, also linked to the IHR. The 1980s saw the rise of Bradley Smith and the Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust which tried to influence public opinion using newspaper ads, the Canadian legal cases of high school teacher James Keegstra and of Ernst Zündel, and of philosopher/historian Ernst Nolte in Germany, and the writings of American historian Arno J. Mayer. In a noted case Irving filed a libel case against a respected historian who authored a book about Denial, and lost. The 1990s also saw the rise of Denial publications in Japan, Turkey, and the rise of négationnisme in France as a movement consolidating disparate, preexisting denial politics; and in the 2000s in Belgium, and in the Arab world, including Fatah founder Mahmoud Abbas and others, with surveys showing an increasing percentage of the Arab pubic believing the Holocaust never happened. In Iran, president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad publicly questioned its existence, and even hosted a widely condemened conference to deny it.

That would be placed as a new introduction at the top of section History and devlopment (right after the new See also) and above the first subsection Harry Elmer Barnes.


Although this was a large delete, I hope it is supported by the evidence. Mathglot (talk) 23:58, 22 April 2015 (UTC) edited by Mathglot (talk) 00:06, 23 April 2015 (UTC).
Edited by Mathglot (talk) 03:33, 23 April 2015 (UTC) to tweak style and References section name.

References for Deleted section Notable Holocaust deniers[edit]

  1. ^ a b "The new anti-Semitism". The Guardian (London). June 21, 2003. Archived from the original on 2003-06-22. Retrieved May 4, 2010. 

Proposed deletion of section Notable Holocaust deniers-Discussion section[edit]

The main purpose of the proposal is to avoid duplicate content between article section Notable Holocaust deniers and Category page Category:Holocaust deniers that would have to be maintained in two places to stay in sync; secondly, it's about avoiding having to make POV judgments about which deniers are "Notable" (65 listed in the article currently), whereas the Category just lists them all (113).

No actual content would disappear from the encyclopedia, no Holocaust denier name would be left untagged, no references would be lost; only duplicate content would be removed. Details of the proposal can be found above. Mathglot (talk) 21:04, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

  • Support proposed edit due to the precise rationale given above. No content would be lost, and it would appear we would be left with actually more detail, with appropriate links to the more detailed category Holocaust deniers. More comment from interested editors would I am sure be appreciated, in order to reach a speedy consensus on this, either way. Irondome (talk) 21:14, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
  • I also support removing this list for the reasons given by Mathglot and Irondome above. It doesn't add much to the article, and regularly raises issues around WP:NPOV and WP:BLP. Nick-D (talk) 22:57, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose, seems to be a trend to eliminate lists on article pages without even links to the lists. (Sometimes the lists are removed from the article page and a separate page is made of the list.) I like the paragraph Mathglot wrote. The paragraph would be okay if there was a link to the names in the Catagory but I'll bet someone will quickly remove the paragraph. Only reason I can see for deleting the list is to make the article appear to be a fringe theory. Raquel Baranow (talk) 00:11, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
Hi, Raquel, the green paragraph pretty much wrote itself, as it merely summarizes the remainder of the long History and development section that follows, kind of the way the Lede summarizes the rest of the article. There's really nothing new there, so there wouldn't really be a reason to take it out. And yes, absolutely it should have a link to the list of names in the category. Mathglot (talk) 07:47, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

@Raquel Baranow, Irondome, and Nick-D:. Well, a month has gone by, no one else has weighed in. Shall we do this? One complication of having waited: the list is larger than before, I don't feel like going through the whole thing again one by one, to make sure the Category has every single one that now appears here. I don't mind going through the edit History however, so as long as the edit section in the summary shows /* Notable Holocaust Deniers */ it will be easy to pick up the changes by doing diffs from there, but if they tried to obfuscate the section, or snuck it in under some other section or wiped the edit summary, it won't show. Anyone think we need to wait for more opinions on this? Mathglot (talk) 08:06, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

I suggest sorting the list a bit more. Perhaps removing dead holocaust deniers and distinguishing between them by occupation, maybe more of an examples section. Also shouldn't Mahmoud Abbas be in the list? The list should focus on the most prominent deniers and not include anyone Telaviv1 (talk) 14:35, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

I agree with @Telaviv1: that the list should be kept, and perhaps organized better. I don't see the rationale for removing dead list members, however; death does not absolve anyone of their holocaust denial sins, n'est-ce pas? I also agree with adding Abbas; as the founder of Fatah, he certainly deserves mention. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 14:50, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
I agree that the list should be kept, and if necessary re-organised and expanded. Denisarona (talk) 15:46, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
I see three recent votes for keeping it, however they all seem to be WP:PPOV to me, as there has been no reference to the reasons already given for deletion or any support for a keep other than personal preference. Telaviv1 suggests reorganizing it (which is an implied keep) but what's the reason for this, as the Category maintains the list sorted automatically? If you wish to support a keep and oppose the deletion, that's fine, but please base it on WP:POLICY and not just WP:IDONTLIKEIT. More specifically, there is a long discussion above about why deleting it is a good idea; please read the section, and kindly explain why keeping the list would be an improvement to the article. Absent a reasoned argument for keep, the list should be deleted after a decent interval. Thanks. Mathglot (talk) 21:20, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Strong support. We've been over this stuff in many other categories and designations. See here. It violates BLP if it is only alleged or accused. Bataaf van Oranje (talk) 03:29, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
I will amend my vote to support removal, as I thought that you were proposing deletion of the category list as well. As long as the category list is retained, and linked within the article, I have no problem with eliminating redundancy. This has nothing to do with WP:PPOV, by the way, at least in my case -- a list is necessary because without it, as someone already pointed out, the article takes on the appearance of a fringe theory. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 04:12, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
But it is a fringe theory. I guess perhaps you're using the term differently than I might? --jpgordon::==( o ) 13:31, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Contentious label[edit]

I added the “contentious label” template to a number of Holocaust denial -related categories. This template was removed; a removal to which I do not object and which I currently do not intend to revert. To reassure others, I am by no means a Holocaust denier. I agree, the Holocaust is a fact in the same sense as any number of other historical events. However I enjoy editing Wikipedia, and I thought the “contentious label” template would be appropriate, given that the term “denialist” is listed as a contentious label.

I apologize for my potentially inappropriate edit.--Solomonfromfinland (talk) 22:55, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Nicholas Kollerstrom[edit]

Is there a reason that Dr. Nicholas Kollerstrom isn't listed in this article? He is a self-proclaimed denier and was booted from his professorial post for his beliefs. I believe he wrote "Breaking the Spell," which is probably the most recent denier work published, at least by a notable person. As far as I can tell it is also one of the most best-selling as well. 02:23, 8 October 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk)

I added Nicholas Kollerstrom to the list of deniers, thanks for the heads up! Raquel Baranow (talk) 02:34, 8 October 2015 (UTC)