Talk:Holocaust denial

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Notable Holocaust Revisionists[edit]

I saw David Cole was missing from the list of notable and famous revisionist. I was going to add him but then I saw that things need to discussed in the talk page first. So here's the discussion :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.190.105.91 (talk) 16:00, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

"For this reason, Holocaust denial is considered to be an antisemitic[10] conspiracy theory"[edit]

I take issue with this bold, black-and-white claim; I think it marginalizes those who don't see the theories of the Holocaust being false as inherently antisemitic. I tried to add "widely" before "considered", but Tarc twice reverted my change. This isn't just Tezero and his invisible army of Holocaust denial sympathizers - if you'll notice, to anyone reading, even the section "Holocaust denial and antisemitism" uses the word "widely" right away and cites numerous examples of scholars who disagree. I really think that the simple phrase "is considered" as it's used stands only as a slap in the face to Holocaust deniers and their sympathizers: "Ha ha, you're wrong and everyone knows it. Even Wikipedia isn't going to afford your view any real estate here. Go cry all the way home to Stormfront." Tezero (talk) 23:14, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

"Go cry all the way home to Stormfront" is precisely the message to send here. Tarc (talk) 01:11, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
Why? If you think Holocaust denial is inherently antisemitic, then it should follow that we shouldn't advocate against it, because that's an ideology and Wikipedia doesn't take a position on such things. Go cry all the way home to the JIDF; how about that? Tezero (talk) 03:57, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
I consider it to be more akin to pedophilia, really. Some beliefs just don't get a say or a voice in this project, sport. Sorry. Tarc (talk) 04:15, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
I'm proud that you're secure in your teleiophilia. However, Wikipedia doesn't care. Wikipedia doesn't have to agree with viewpoints, but it does have to acknowledge them. Besides, what do you mean "some beliefs"? What rule should we use? What the Western world thinks is icky? Tezero (talk) 14:58, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
When you cross one of those bright lines, as you did here, that is when you will be made aware of the rules. Run along and spruce up a Pokemon or Sonic article now. Tarc (talk) 18:56, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
I must've missed the rule that says "Wikipedia doesn't have an ideology... except against Holocaust denial and pedophilia. That shit don't fly." Sorry about that. Bright lines, indeed. Tezero (talk) 00:11, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
I oppose this adding "widely" to the lede in the manner suggested by Tezero as well. See FAQ response #1 at the top of this page. VQuakr (talk) 02:53, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
"Preponderance" doesn't cut it when there's a whole section largely about people who don't consider it to be antisemitic. If those aren't "reliable", they shouldn't be in the article at all. Tezero (talk) 03:57, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
Please read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:RS, and realize this is an (amateur) encyclopedia, not a blog or forum.HammerFilmFan (talk) 21:36, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
WP:RS only strengthens my point - there are reliable sources later in the article that question whether Holocaust denial is inherently antisemitic. It would be more like a blog or forum, in fact, to exclude these completely to phone in the assertion that no one disagrees. Tezero (talk) 07:03, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
Which reliable sources are those? Only thing I see is "Some have argued that not all Holocaust deniers are necessarily antisemitic", with precisely one example (which means the "some" has to go) -- which says one particular holocaust denier is a fool, not an antisemite. You know where the other reliable sources are in the article; I'm not finding them -- please elucidate. --jpgordon::==( o ) 16:39, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
There's another example: Walter Reich said "The primary motivation for most deniers is anti-Semitism". Tezero (talk) 21:57, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
While the article may address certain fringe opinions (that Holocaust denial isn't antisemitic) it's not wrong to unequivocally state the prevailing opinion as fact. Pedophila is a great example. "Most scholars agree that children are incapable of informed consent. For this reason, child porn is viewed as highly unethical." there doesn't need to be a "mostly" or "widely", it's viewed as antisemitic. And thanks for making me all the more confident in my choice to change it, considering it will be a "slap in the face for Holocaust deniers" (like that's a bad thing?) And while Tarc was blunt about it, I would agree this is not just something you compromise on. "If Holocaust denial isn't antisemitic, then is blood libel antisemitic? Does antisemitism even exist? Does anything exist?".
Those are stupid examples, because I'm not advocating that the charge of Holocaust denial being antisemitic be removed entirely, only that it be characterized as what it is: a majority opinion rather than an absolute, unanimous one. Tezero (talk) 21:57, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

If our refusal to be a platform for insane, hateful ideologies truly offends you, feel free to go back to Stormfront.--monochrome_monitor 21:21, 2 July 2014 (UTC) Basically, while if you deny the Holocaust there is a 0.0x10^-16th chance that you, as a person, don't hate Jews--the very act of denying the Holocaust is always hateful towards Jews, hence it is antisemitic.

Yeah, you know what? It does offend me that we can't add one fucking word to make the intro actually summarize the body text just because Wikipedia wants to make an exception to its undue weight and neutrality policies so the Jews can feel 100% safe. Oh, and I can't go "back" to Stormfront as I have no interest in joining and would probably not be accepted anyway because of my Arab and Iranian blood, but thanks. What if one said that they couldn't believe that the Holocaust had happened because they knew the Jews are too strong to be exterminated like that? Tezero (talk) 21:57, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
Get a grip eh? Your POV is showing now. Irondome (talk) 22:03, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
My POV is that accuracy > simplification. I don't despise Jews, although there's no non-clichéd way to try to demonstrate this, I think. Going by the presence of my uncommon Czech surname in official records, some of my own ancestors were killed in the Holocaust (or perhaps Jews who adopted the name). Tezero (talk) 02:57, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
I'm sorry man but if you think the holocaust didn't happen, for whatever reason, you are accusing Jews of lying (to gain sympathy.)
More than just Jews, and even for Jews, not necessarily because of their ethnicity or faith. It's like how Malcolm X continued to indict whites after his 1964 revelations because of their perceived role in subjugating minorities. Tezero (talk) 02:57, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

You have to understand that in the world nothing is ever 100%, but the amount of holocaust deniers that are antisemites is quite close. Widely is a weasel word in this context. It's supposed to be used for things like "malaria is concentrated widely in Asia and Africa". From an encyclopedic view it just doesn't work, not to mention the moral view, which is why we are so blunt about our opinions in the subject. --monochrome_monitor 00:06, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Why should Wikipedia have a moral view?
Also, I'm aware that the vast majority of Holocaust deniers, if given some kind of test of antisemitism, would "pass" it. But that doesn't mean the positions are inherently intertwined. It's like how the vast majority of Prius owners and vegetarians are (I assume) liberals - does that mean their viewpoints are inherently liberal? Tezero (talk) 02:57, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

You don't understand what I said. I said for an encyclopedic view it is wrong, and that the moral view is the reason why we insist on keeping the correct encyclopedic wording (widely is a weasel word and the Holocaust is not a place for weasel words). Your spurious comparison to Prius's only shows how out of touch you truly are. I'll repeat: Denying the Holocaust is ALWAYS antisemitic, whether or not the denier is antisemitic. For example, drawing a swastika in a Jewish cemetery is ALWAYS antisemitic, whether or not the vandal is antisemitic. You don't need to be a hateful person to do a hateful act.

I'll remind you that holocaust denial isn't as broad as revisionism. A denier never claims that 10 million Jews really died, or that Hitler was a space alien. Denial is accusing Jews of exaggerating or fabricating the evidence, claiming no gas chambers existed, etc. Holocaust deniers always presume that (and if they didn't they would be simply called revisionists) "the Holocaust wasn't as bad as they said it was" (because less people died, people were killed by natural causes, Hitler had no intent) .... Making this claim and then distorting facts to convince others of this ideology is purposefully diminishing a despicable tragedy and IS ALWAYS ANTISEMITIC.

Good day sir, if you still don't understand, then frankly there's nothing I can do to convince you. --monochrome_monitor 15:05, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Nice no-true-Scotsman fallacy; the article states itself that "revisionist" is the term Holocaust deniers use for themselves, and so there is no difference. Oh, and if "widely" is a weasel word, why does the intro still include "most" or "generally"? But really, all three of the words are fine because Wikipedia isn't supposed to take exception to controversial topics. No, you haven't convinced me. Tezero (talk) 21:18, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
I don't insist any change be made, but the article reads very differently from the usual, featured wikipedia article. In wikipedia even the best human contributions are allowed to be criticized and the worst crimes are allowed to be defended. Even Saddam is praised for some stuff! This article sounds like it is promoting an agenda, and stifling opposite views. These opposite views, however wrong, should be allowed. This is Wikipedia, not a blog. Don't give me "this is what scholars/empirical evidence/blahs says." Yes, true, and scholars are right, but wikipedia always presents wrong views as well; not as facts, but as alternative views to widely believed facts.Xullius (talk) 07:07, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Protection Status[edit]

I believe this article's protection status should be increased. It has been vandalized a lot recently by anonymous antisemites. [1][2][3]. I propose changing it to confirmed-user only. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Monochrome monitor (talkcontribs) 05:02, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Not needed. There are tons of us monitoring the article for vandalism. One of those three was reverted in 35 seconds, the other two within 4 minutes. --jpgordon::==( o ) 16:26, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

You guys are doing a great job and I try to thank you whenever you make a revert. It was just a suggestion. --monochrome_monitor 16:39, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Accuracy of definition[edit]

Holocaust denial is described as the "act of denying established facts concerning the genocide of Jews in the Holocaust". Is this correct? Doesn't it extend to anyone studying or questioning a wide number of facts or assumed facts?101.98.188.150 (talk) 04:20, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Do you have a reference which supports that definition? Honest historical research into aspects of the Holocaust which challenges/disproves existing beliefs certainly isn't Holocaust denial. Nick-D (talk) 04:26, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

How is it "anti-Semitic" to question?[edit]

The opening paragraph of this article states that holocaust denial is the denial of the genocide of the Jews of Europe during WW2. This is a little confusing to me for a few reason. First, it is claimed that the holocaust prepetrated by the Germans against civilains cost the lives of 11,000,000 people, 6,000,000 of whom are alleged to have been Jewish. That means that only around 55% of the victims were Jews. If you doubt, question or even flat out deny that there was a policy of extermination coming from the highest levels of government, how are you only against 55% and not against the other 45%? Jews are not the only claimed victims of this event. There were many others deemed undesirable by the Germans like homosexuals, gypsies, the mentally incurable and political dissidents. Why are you only anti-Jewish if you dont believe the hisorical narrative?

  • Jews were the primary target of the Nazi extermination. They also constitute the vast bulk of surviving witnesses against the murderers. It is not possible to argue that the Holocaust did not happen without implying that there is a vast conspiracy on the part of millions of people, but Jews in particular, to concoct and prop up a hoax. Holocaust denial is at best rank idiocy, and at worst outright slander and fraud. But it is ALWAYS and inherently anti-Semitic because you can't construct an explanation that doesn't involve a vast Jewish conspiracy. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:59, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Holocaust denial within these Wikipedia articles[edit]

Altho there is no argument (to date) that most of the victims of the Holocaust were jews, the numbers of millions of victims murdered for reasons other than being jewish are so high that the one-sided emphasis on jews, both in this article and the main Holocaust one, itself arguably constitutes a form and a degree of Holocaust denial. See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Holocaust#.27Some.27_historians.3F_.28.21.21.21.29.--95.149.79.137 (talk) 18:14, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

As a matter of fact Holocaust deniers do not care about theother victims of nazis. They do not deny the mass-murder of gypsies, disabled persons or other populations. They feel only concerned by one single question: deny that the Jews were mass-murdered by the nazis using all kind of means including industrial ones. Holocaust denial specifically addresses the mass-murder of Jews and this is the reason why this article relates to that specific question. For the rest an appropriate answer has already been given here to the question you raise. There is therefore no need to answer to it one more time on this talk page. --Lebob (talk) 09:08, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Counterproductive bans[edit]

There is massive empirical evidence for the holocaust, and that should be cited in spreading knowledge about it. However, using bans and politization to fight holocaust denial makes it look as if the actual evidence did not exist, as if the case for the holocaust had to rely on ex baculum arguments. So laws against holocaust denial promotes holocaust denial. Many holocaust deniers are likely just misled by that misargumentation. And of course many are just ignorant (when there are weak students in all other school subjects, why would history be exempt?). While antisemites had political motifs to deny the holocaust in the past, none of those motifs remain in a society where holocaust denial is associated with antisemitism.2.69.217.169 (talk) 09:20, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

If I am well informed there are currently in world 195 countries which have a seat at the UNO and can therefore be seen as independent sovereign countries. Among these 195 countries there are only 11 which have specific laws against holocaust denial. And I never got the feeling that holocaust denial is more widespread in said countries than in other ones. Beside a weak student usually does not know what he is talking about but does normally not promote a fringe theory. When someone is promoting holocaust denial he is not proving himself to be a "weak student" but to be a holocaust denier (for many possible reasonS among which anti-Semitism is the more common one). --Lebob (talk) 10:46, 21 February 2015 (UTC)