Talk:Holocaust denial

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"By whom?" needed[edit]

I don't know how to do this, but the FAQ section contains these words: "In any event, reputable historians did not use the 4 million figure in their calculations of the overall number of Jews killed in the Holocaust. Rather, they used numbers of 1 to 1.5 million, figures which are still used today." This part obviously needs a "By whom" tag, or it is just what this tag tries to combat. Unverifiable pseudo-facts with no source-checking possible. It would be in everybody's best interest to make 'reliable sources' out of this claim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.216.27.93 (talk) 12:53, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Contentious label[edit]

I added the “contentious label” template to a number of Holocaust denial -related categories. This template was removed; a removal to which I do not object and which I currently do not intend to revert. To reassure others, I am by no means a Holocaust denier. I agree, the Holocaust is a fact in the same sense as any number of other historical events. However I enjoy editing Wikipedia, and I thought the “contentious label” template would be appropriate, given that the term “denialist” is listed as a contentious label.

I apologize for my potentially inappropriate edit.--Solomonfromfinland (talk) 22:55, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Nicholas Kollerstrom[edit]

Is there a reason that Dr. Nicholas Kollerstrom isn't listed in this article? He is a self-proclaimed denier and was booted from his professorial post for his beliefs. I believe he wrote "Breaking the Spell," which is probably the most recent denier work published, at least by a notable person. As far as I can tell it is also one of the most best-selling as well. 02:23, 8 October 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.167.102.227 (talk)

I added Nicholas Kollerstrom to the list of deniers, thanks for the heads up! Raquel Baranow (talk) 02:34, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Netanyahu says Holocaust was idea of Palestinian leader...[edit]

How're we going to deal with his holocaust revisionism? Normally we'd just label someone a holocaust denier and an anti semite, but in this case we might need a more subtle approach.109.154.105.52 (talk) 15:50, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Referring to this article: Germany Responds to Netanyahu: We're Responsible for Holocaust, Not Mufti. Not sure if it's "denial". Raquel Baranow (talk) 15:58, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
It is straight-up Holocaust denial of the "Hitler only wanted to deport Jews" type; Holocaust historians are already saying as much. Sceptre (talk) 10:01, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
I don't think it falls under denial, as he is not claiming that the holocaust didn't happen or was smaller than the historically accepted figure. It sounds like a petty politically and racially motivated attack on the Palestinians. The claim is easily refuted, but certainly needs to be included in the article. --Dmol (talk) 10:10, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
The IHRA would disagree with you. Sceptre (talk) 10:13, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
This story is on CNN as well: [14]. It is mentioned in the Haj Amin al-Husseini article, may deserve a mention here too. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:54, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
This not about denial; as Dmol said, he's not claiming that it didn't happen; he's blaming it on the Palestinians, which, I think most editors on all sides of this issue would agree, is absurd. It is about disinformation, which is a closely-related issue, and as such it does deserve mention, perhaps with a notation (easily sourced) that "his allegation is not supported by the scholarly historical record" -- or something to that effect. That's the way CBS handled it on their evening news last night. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 13:43, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
Holocaust denial isn't solely about "claiming it didn't happen". It's also about the intent of the perpetrators. --jpgordon::==( o ) 14:16, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
Of course, but there's a subtle distinction here: The myth that the Final Solution policy involved only deportation, not murder, is certainly part of the definition of Holocaust denial; but Netanyahu is alleging that the Mufti persuaded Hitler to switch from deportation to murder. So he's not disputing the official policy (deportation vs. murder), he's offering a revisionist version of how they got there. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 15:06, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
I'd like to see it added if only to emphasize the deportation policy. Raquel Baranow (talk) 15:12, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
Netanyahu's comments on this have been added to his own Wikipedia article, alongside the refutation by Moshe Zimmermann, who said that this was tantamount to Holocaust denial (using the first source cited by Sceptre here). Personally, I think this should be mentioned (albeit very briefly). – Zumoarirodoka(talk)(email) 17:18, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
I agree with Zumoarirodoka. We have RSes linking this to denial so we should mention it without overdoing it. --DanielRigal (talk) 20:45, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
I do too, I guess. Part of me worries about the potential liability and WP:BLP issues inherent in labeling an Israeli prime minister a Holocaust denier; but we have at least one reputable source (Zimmerman) who has made the link in public statements, so we are unquestionably on firm ground, guideline-wise. By all means, keep it brief, low key, and as neutral as possible - and pray we're not opening a can of worms. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 23:08, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
I am surprised there is no mention of Netanyahu's speech on the page yet. It is the most prominent example of - according to Israeli law - Holocaust denial in the past few years. The law specifically prohibits saying or publishing anything "with intent to defend the perpetrators of those acts" - and diminishing Hitler's role in the genocide is clearly that. I think it seriously weakens the strength of the otherwise academic rigour of this page to not mention it. Andrew Riddles (talk) 09:34, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────I think as long as there are RS describing what Netanyahu said as "holocaust denial", we can make note of it if we do not speak in WP's voice and attribute it specifically to whoever described it. Cannolis (talk) 10:07, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Cannolis. There are wp:rs that state what Netanyahu said is Holocaust denial. Their rationale is not basically stupid. We cannot use WP's voice but we can report this in attributing this. Per WP:BLP, let's not forget to report also what Netanyahu said after he was blamed for his declarations. Pluto2012 (talk) 10:50, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia should reflect the general opinion of the reliable sources; if it's only one or two who call it "Holocaust denial" while most about it don't then it's undue weight to say "reliable sources say it's Holocaust denial." AnnaLiver (talk) 19:13, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
I also notice that the IP who started this section has been blocked for disruptive posting, so there may be a limit to how seriously we should take this question. AnnaLiver (talk) 19:15, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
We definitely need to be very careful how we word this because we have different sources going to different lengths on this. We need to be accurate but not overcover it. We don't need more than a short paragraph unless this blows up into a bigger story later. Maybe we should have one or two sentences reporting what he said, one sentence clarifying the true extent of the Mufti's involvement, followed by something like (and I am not necessarily proposing this specific wording, just trying to give a flavour of what I am thinking of). "These comments were met with strong criticism from Jewish, Palestinian and German commentators.(References) Some (insert list) suggested that these comments would assist holocaust deniers attempting to shift blame away from the Nazis.(references) A few (insert list, or maybe it is just Zimmerman here?) claimed that they were tantamount to Holocaust denial itself.(References)" --DanielRigal (talk) 19:42, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
I haven't seen any evidence that it's any other historian than Zimmerman, which is why I'm wary. It's more or less unanimous that Netanyahu said a remarkably stupid thing, so stupid he was forced to retract it a week later, but so far it seems only Zimmerman responded by calling it Holocaust denial. As such, the controversy rises to the level of deserving a mention in Netanyahu's entry, but I'm much less convinced it rises to a mention here.AnnaLiver (talk) 12:32, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Draft:Asian Holocaust denial[edit]

In new pages patrol I came across Draft:Asian Holocaust denial and thought that regulars here might appreciate a heads-up. 08:12, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

What About Denial of Other Parts of the Holocaust?[edit]

For example, Scott Lively's attempts to erase Nazi genocide against gay men and trans women, attempts to erase genocide against the Rroma, against disabled people such as Aktion T4, etc. 108.48.94.155 (talk) 02:56, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Wow, I just looked at the Scott Lively article. That is scary stuff. Denying history, be it the mass killing of Jews or gays or anyone else is extremely worrisome. I don't know how to label it, but it worries me greatly. Isambard Kingdom (talk) 03:09, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
One of the lessons we can take from recognizing the denial of the Jewish holocaust is that we can't allow any holocaust or genocide to be denied. Isambard Kingdom (talk) 03:57, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Add B.o.B to list of notable deniers[edit]

[15]

"But before you try to curve it, do your research on David Irving Stalin was way worse than Hitler That’s why the POTUS gotta wear a Kippah" '''tAD''' (talk) 16:23, 26 January 2016 (UTC)