Talk:Holodomor

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Ukrainian Genocide of 1932-33[edit]

This is the most widely-used name for the genocide today. (AlexanderShatolv (talk) 17:46, 30 September 2016 (UTC))

A statement by a band new account without a proper analysis of references is not really credible.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:57, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
Absolutely not a common phrasing, highly POV. "Holodomor" has a nationalist flavor; "Famine of 1932-33 in the Ukraine" would be a truly NPOV phrasing. Nearly 1 million people died in Kazakhstan and more in other parts of Russia. "Genocide" does not describe this event. Carrite (talk) 01:21, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
That reflects nothing other than your opinion. RS treat it as a serious genocide topic, whether you like it or not. It doesn't seem that you've cultivated your sense of taste beyond your personal taste. Given that you've been around Wikipedia for a long time, you know that talk pages are not for your political advocacy. Given, also, that you've neither been involved with the editing of this article, nor any form of discussion of this article's content on this talk page, I suggest that you familiarise yourself as to why this, and surrounding articles, are on the ARBEE sanctions list... --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:58, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
The Holodomor is officially recognised as a genocide. Stalin murdered more people than anyone in history. (AlexanderShatolv (talk) 13:39, 4 November 2016 (UTC))
It is recognized by a handful of countries and not recognized by other countries.--Ymblanter (talk) 14:20, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
Please read the article, familiarise yourself with the scholarly debate, and read through the talk page archives before making such proclamations. It is an area of dispute as to whether it was genocide or not. No editor's personal opinion is of consequence, and you're using this talk page as a soapbox. Thank you for your attention. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 19:54, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
Only Russia denies that the genocide in Ukraine was intentional. (AlexanderShatolv (talk) 11:56, 5 November 2016 (UTC))
This is bullshit. Stop soapboxing and do something useful.--Ymblanter (talk) 11:58, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

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Russia cant deny a genocide which did not take place. There was no Genocide and actually Russia is not the only country that rejects the Thesis that this was a genocide. Israel for example take the line that this was only a Famine which was ait and abet by the Soviet Government just like the Government of Great Britain did that during the Famine in Ireland in 1845-1852.--SBC Guy (talk) 18:23, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
Sources please.Xx236 (talk) 11:58, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
It was a crime against humanity but not a genocide of Ukrainians. Israel reject the Thesis that the Soviet Famine of 1932/1933 which killed not only ethnic Ukrainians was a genocide.--SBC Guy (talk) 18:59, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
Enough WP:SOAP, SBC Guy. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:34, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
I promote nothing there is no consensus that the Holodomor was a genocide.--SBC Guy (talk) 10:05, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
What do you mean, "I promote nothing"? You don't seem to be aware of the fact that you've countered your own argument, as "There is no consensus that the Holodomor was a genocide" can just as well be met with "there is no consensus that the Holodomor was not a genocide." There is serious debate over the issue as attested to by high profile historians, and damning evidence. Prior perestroika, this famine was not even acknowledged as having taken place by the Soviet Union... so, yes, you're not only promoting your POV, but are pushing it with edits such as this. You also appear keen to tell an entirely different version of other events than what is attested to by reliable sources when you try to refactor content like this. Every editor is entitled to have their own opinion on any given subject, but we are WP:HERE to ensure as best we can that articles reflect what reliable sources have to say (whether we personally agree or not). Wikipedia is not your vehicle for promoting what you believe to be the "Truth". --Iryna Harpy (talk) 20:41, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

Alternate names[edit]

It is not usually known as the Holodomor in the Western world. (Marrsly (talk) 12:06, 1 January 2017 (UTC))

It's usually referred to as the Ukrainian Genocide or the Soviet Genocide in Ukraine. (2A00:23C4:638F:5000:45E5:4437:80D3:D2CF (talk) 17:02, 6 February 2017 (UTC))

Misuse of the Davies & Wheatcroft source for POV[edit]

Currently in the article, the "Genocide question" section kicks off by using an early Conquest claim that he believed the famine to be a "deliberate act of mass murder" and then uses a quote by Davies and Wheatcroft to seemingly confirm this assessment since they believed rapid industrialization to be an underlying cause of the famine. However, in the same article Davies and Wheatcroft make it clear that they do not support the idea that the famine was "deliberate":

"However, we have found no evidence, either direct or indirect, that Stalin sought deliberately to starve the peasants. The top-secret decisions of the Politburo, endorsed by Stalin, never hint at a policy of deliberate starvation." [1]

Additionally, the same article points out that Conquest himself no longer holds the view that the famine was intentionally caused or "genocidal", but rather policy decisions contributed to exasperating it:

"Our view of Stalin and the famine is close to that of Robert Conquest, who would earlier have been considered the champion of the argument that Stalin had intentionally caused the famine and had acted in a genocidal manner. In 2003, Dr Conquest wrote to us explaining that he does not hold the view that 'Stalin purposefully inflicted the 1933 famine. No. What I argue is that with the resulting famine imminent, he could have prevented it, but put "Soviet interest" other than feeding the starving first - thus consciously abetting it'."

To use both of these people to make the claim that the famine was a "deliberate act of mass murder" seems dishonest. In light of the content of the source actually used, perhaps it would be appropriate to clean the section up to make the ideas of the scholars quoted clearer? Aerdil (talk) 21:57, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

That view still supports the idea that the Holodomor was a genocide. (2A00:23C4:638F:5000:45E5:4437:80D3:D2CF (talk) 13:13, 7 February 2017 (UTC))