Talk:Holodomor

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Inernational recognizing Holodomor as a genocide[edit]

Observations Considered genocide by 25 countries[edit]

Countries which officially recognise Ukraine´s holodomor (death by famine) as a genocide was only this 16 country: Australia, Vatican, Georgia, Ecuador, Republic of Estonia, Republic of Lithuania, Canada, Republic of Colombia, Republic of Latvia, United Mexican States, Republic of Paraguay, Republic of Peru, Poland, Portugal, Hungary and Ukraine. Please correct 25 in to 16. Thanks.Pavlo4 (talk) 20:53, 3 April 2017 (UTC) Iryna Harpy please correct page of Holodomor, thanks.Pavlo4 (talk) 01:36, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

Extended content

Largest genocide before World War II[edit]

The lede should mention the Holodomor was the largest genocide of the 20th century before World War II. (2A00:23C4:6393:E500:453D:2789:8F89:7BEE (talk) 15:05, 19 April 2017 (UTC))

We would need a reliable source that states this. GABgab 15:15, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
Even at the lowest estimate it was larger than the Armenian Genocide during World War I. (2A00:23C4:6393:E500:453D:2789:8F89:7BEE (talk) 15:44, 19 April 2017 (UTC))
It is not generally viewed as a genocide, which requires that a specific ethnic group be targeted for elimination, which was the case of the Armenians in 1915 and the Jews (and Gypsies) during the Second World War. And people who claim the Ukrainians were specifically targeted also claim that there were 10 million victims, more than the 6 million Jews killed during the war and some of them question the number of Jews actually killed. TFD (talk) 17:38, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
Most of the Holocaust victims were Slavs. The Holodomor was a man-made genocide aimed at eradicating Ukrainian nationalism. It was the main reason why millions of people in Ukraine sided with the Axis in 1941. (2A00:23C4:6393:E500:BD01:21CD:6356:FEC7 (talk) 09:03, 20 April 2017 (UTC))
Russians are Slavs too. While a number of scholars do say aimed at eradicating Ukrainian nationalism, there is disagreement on that issue. It is irrelevant to our discussion which side was right. We cannot state an opinion as fact unless it has consensus support in scholarship. TFD (talk) 15:15, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Agreed. There is currently no such consensus on the issue, and some scholars who have studied archival materials in the former USSR, such as Stephen G. Wheatcroft, argue that it was not genocide. After a quick glance at the lede, it should be noted that some of the sources are not scholarship and most likely do not even quality as WP:RS. For example, this does not appear to be a reliable source to be used in the lede, especially without some kind of attribution.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 15:38, 20 April 2017 (UTC).

Semi-protected edit request on 24 April 2017[edit]

Please change "organisations" to correct spelling of "organizations" in middle of first paragraph of subsection: Etymology. Ulmus americana (talk) 13:46, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Not done: per WP:RETAIN; article uses British English spelling. Favonian (talk) 13:52, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Problems with the lead[edit]

The lead has discussed relatively recent estimates as 'early estimates by scholars and government officials' for a heck of a long time. It then contrasts the most recent stats with these 'old' stats. Now this is fine and dandy, but is entirely misleading as it implies that scholars and government officials were coughing up statistics at the time of the event, or relatively near the time of the event, and more recent scholarship has come to the conclusion that the figures were lower.

Would someone care to qualify when it was even admitted that there had been a famine during the Soviet regime? When were estimates seriously investigated? There is a lapse of literally decades between the event and any estimates, yet this is glaringly omitted from the lead of an article that has been edit warred into a sloppy piece of sound bytes. Due to lack of records? Why is there a 'lack of records'? Could we please stop the POV pushing from both sides and try to at least create a lead that provides a vaguely realistic description of the time lapse between the recognition of there actually having been an 'event' and any form of 'scholarly and government' (which government?) estimation of the death toll? I can't even begin to imagine what a piece of gobbledygook this reads as for someone who's never heard of the subject. Ukraine and 15 other countries recognised it as a genocide in 2006? No, other countries have officially recognised it as 'genocide' over a period of couple of decades. Ukraine adopted the recognition as law, and the statute actually lists 25 countries who have legally recognised the event as genocide. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:55, 15 June 2017 (UTC)


Basic questions about 1930s Ukraine[edit]

Could somebody please answer the following questions as this article fails to. 1. During Holodomor, how many states covered the current area of Ukraine? Was there a Polish Ukranian state, as well as a USSR-Ukrainian state? 2. If there were distinct states, was the Holodomor only in USSR-occupied parts of Ukraine? What was the situation with the other state (states?)? Thank you in advance. 80.111.140.140 (talk) 14:18, 17 June 2017 (UTC)