Talk:Holodomor

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Ethnic cleansing of Circassians in see also[edit]

An anonymous editor wants to add Ethnic cleansing of Circassians into the "See also" section of the article. I do not think it belongs here as there are little in common between those events: the cleansing of Circassians happened in mid 19th century it was a result of forced expulsions to Turkey, human losses in the Caucasian wars and assimilation. It was organised by Russian empire and fueled by colonialism. Holodomor occurred almost a century later, it was a catastrophic famine, not an expulsion, organized by the Soviet Union and fueled by the communist ideology. If there are sourced that consider Ethnic cleansing of Circassians and Holodomor to be related please provide the rather than edit war. Alex Bakharev (talk) 02:25, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

As this editor has not left any edit summaries, I fail to see what the significance is over and above any other such events throughout history. That being the case, the 'see also' section would become an inexhaustible list. Personally, I see it as being WP:POINTy and intended as an explicit ethnic slur. Any additions to the content are welcome per reliable sources linking incidents, as are edits following bold → revert → discuss. The emphasis is on discussion and bringing sourced evidence to the table in order that other editors be given an opportunity to address proposed changes. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:12, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Motivation/ Intent[edit]

The articles makes a strong case for there being an intent behind this, but then it presents no motivation for the intent. The section on "Causes" sort of touches on it very lightly/ briefly, but this is way into the article already, with nothing mentioned in the lead, and nothing in the rest of the article. Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 20:28, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Rui Gabriel Correia Look @ my comment on the bottom of this page. Socialistguy (talk) 02:15, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
This is a problem with the theory that the famine was deliberate. Essentially the theory claims that Stalin deliberately engineered a crisis in his own economy.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:54, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
Yes, and? --jpgordon::==( o ) 02:43, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Cannibalism[edit]

This is a particularly terrible facet of the tragedy. I've added some information on the subject into the article, but was reverted by a user. I would like to hear 3rd opinions on whther to include this information or not. See comparison of versions: [1]

Thanks, Phil. --Phil070707 (talk) 18:25, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Neutrality of sources[edit]

There's a claim in the article putting Holodomor into the same category with Holocaust. A vague claim in itself to compare starvation to systematic racism; the source for that claim led to the Maidan Movement's website, which can't be considered a neutral source in any way. Vmp4523 (talk) 22:39, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Firstly, if you care to read the source, it is translation from another RS site and is written by Josef Zisels / AKA Josef Zissels. Nevertheless, I have substituted your 'POV' tag with a 'better sources' tag.
Having made a rather sweeping assertion regarding "A vague claim in itself to compare starvation to systematic racism;", I also suspect that you're not terribly well acquainted with the subject of this article. If you take a look at the top of this talk page, you will find multiple 'problem' template boxes that should indicate to you that it is not an article to be flippant about, nor has it been written frivolously or lazily. As you are an inexperienced editor, could I suggest that you please familiarise yourself with the subject properly, and spend some time reading through both the sources and archived talkpages. Thank you for your consideration. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 06:10, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

If scholars aren't sure if it was man-made, why do u put it was man-made? I'm not denying anything; I just think we should be more neutral about the causes and include Eastern sources given there are disagreements over whether it was really on purpose or not. *This book apparently shows evidence the famine wasn't directly cause by the Soviets. Socialistguy (talk) 00:59, 10 May 2015 (UTC) edited Socialistguy (talk) 02:05, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

It's difficult to see Douglas Tottle as other than a fringe opinion. --jpgordon::==( o ) 03:17, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
Jpgordon his Wiki article doesn't mention that and the book apparently has legitimate claims and acclamation by certain professors. There r claims that kulaks were partially to blame. Do u have proof his claims are fraudulent? Socialistguy (talk) 03:27, 10 May 2015 (UTC) edited 03:29, 10 May 2015 (UTC) and 03:35, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
@Socialistguy: As a new user, I suggest that you read this article's archives with great care with regards to Douglas Tottle (archive search provided for you). Jpgordon has also directed you to the Douglas Tottle article. Please read the archived talk on that article, also. It would also serve you well to read Denial of the Holodomor, particularly as regards the entry on him there. More to the point, try checking the article on Soviet famine of 1932–33. Denial that it was a man-made famine, even outside of the very different and distinct characteristics is WP:FRINGE, full stop. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:50, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
@Socialistguy: According to Soviet propaganda when socilists die it's man made, when socilists kill, it's a just punishement or a natural disaster.Xx236 (talk) 07:23, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
Xx236 what about western/capitalist propaganda? How do we know who's right? socialistguy - when you make/review edits, please make sure they're neutral and cover/acknowledge multiple POVs. Thank you (talk) 19:25, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
Socialistguy You are using And you are lynching Negroes tool.
Do you mean that the Holodomor has been invented by western/capitalists? Xx236 (talk) 05:58, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
@Iryna Harpy: I'm not denying anything, I'm asking after sources that don't serve interests outside providing information and knowledge on the subject. I also do not understand your use of heavy adjectives as an only way to point alleged problems to the comparison I made. Vmp4523 (talk) 12:16, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
Vmp4523, have you bothered to look at the multitude of boxes at the top of the page? Please be aware of the fact that this article has been the subject of severe edit warring, and falls under WP:ARBEE sanctions. Please read all of the archived talk pages with care. It may also provide an insight into why editors involved in the maintenance of this article get 'heavy' about carelessly worded assertions. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:04, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
@Iryna Harpy: You keep accusing me of sabotaging, yet you still avoid explaining what exactly was the problem. I'm sorry to say that I won't be following your responses further than this since you do not seem to be interested in solving the citation problem further. Vmp4523 (talk) 08:35, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
This article is not neutral.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:59, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
What do you mean by a neutral description of a genocide? Would a Freudian analysis of motivation of the criminals make the article better?Xx236 (talk) 07:19, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
Xx236 Where exactly you got the idea of Freudian analysis into this? Vmp4523 (talk) 08:35, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
I haven't read the paper but it may contain one [2].Xx236 (talk) 08:53, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────@Vmp4523: I'm sorry? Where did I 'accuse you of sabotaging' this article? I've exchanged your 'dubious' tag with 'better references' and have explained that the source for this is a high profile and reputable scholar. If, however, this is not satisfied soon, I'm fully prepared to remove it as extraordinary. As regards Xx236's comment, it was a response to Jack Upland who has made a couple of noises about 'not neutral' and #Motivation/ Intent on this talk page, neither of which have demonstrated anything apart from WP:OR and WP:DONTLIKEIT, and essentially treat this talkpage as a forum. It was not directed at you, so I'm not sure as to what your problem with it is. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 10:31, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

An enormous problem with these articles is that with so many Western contributors and dominant media, we tend to forget that even "our" NPOV is far from universal. The following had a disparaging tone:

... it is not an article to be flippant about, nor has it been written frivolously or lazily. As you are an inexperienced editor, could I suggest that you please familiarise yourself with the subject properly, and spend some time reading through both the sources and archived talkpages. Thank you for your consideration".

No one owns an article, and comparing atrocities with the Holocaust has almost every time been slammed. Some of the Bengali and Irish famines were as, if not far more, deadly, and were also due to poor policy. Saying the Russian State forged a Holocaust to systematically exterminate the entire .. Ukrainian people(?) is extreme. And please don't use propaganda terms such as And you are lynching Negroes or Whataboutism, because pointing out hypocrisy is perfectly valid reasoning. Bataaf van Oranje (talk) 20:40, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
@Prinsgezinde: As a suggestion, do not misrepresent editors by creating your own WP:SYNTH conflating cherry picked strands of this, that, and the other, then stringing them into your personal account of discussions that have transpired. Secondly, no personal attacks. Also, take a look at the top of this talk page as it carries two important templates, being "Not a WP:SOAPBOX", and the fact that this article is under WP:ARBEE sanctions. Thank you for your consideration (noting that my use of "consideration" by no means carries the weight of the tone you have personally attributed to it). --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:47, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Apparently misattributed image[edit]

1932 or 1922?

Similar things have apparently been discussed here repeatedly, but I can't find if it's been discussed with respect to this particular image before. This image, according to its file name and the claims by its original uploader on Commons, is supposedly attributed to Gareth Jones and shows a situation in 1933; however, its file description page on Commons currently sources it to an official website of the International Council of the Red Cross [3], which identifies it as a Red Cross photograph from the Russian famine of 1921, dated to 1922. I am aware there are multiple other websites out there that treat it as a photo of the 1932/33 famine, but are any of them reliable sources, and/or is there any reason not to follow the claim by the ICRC website? (It even cites an archival number for it, indicating that the authors of that page were confident in their attribution.) Fut.Perf. 15:24, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Update: This [4] website has a version of the same photograph described as "Printed postcard from Federation In Brussels raising funds for the victims of famine in the Soviet Union, 1921-1923)(Private Collection)" Fut.Perf. 16:36, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
And this [5], crediting it to "Herbert Hoover Presidential Library", describes it as "Five famine victims from Buzuluk, Russia", again placing it in 1921/22. Fut.Perf. 16:57, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
Here's another, on a website of the National Endowment for the Humanities [6]. Fut.Perf. 20:37, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
In tracing it back, it was added by Tobby72 along with a number of other images last year. I'd take it that it was a good faith error. Thanks for pulling it up. There were a number of images mixed in with genuine Holodomor pics. I had a comprehensive list of those identified as being from 1921-22 (a number not even from Ukraine). I'll try to find it, but if any other images are added, they must be checked carefully for authenticity. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 06:08, 17 May 2015 (UTC)