Talk:Holodomor

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Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych and Russian President Dmitry Medvedev[edit]

There are about 200 presidents in the whole world, why this one is presented here? Xx236 (talk) 07:21, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

@Xx236: I guess that president of Ukraine is depicted because Holodomor happened in Ukraine. But, it's just a guess. Vanjagenije (talk) 20:13, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
I think that Xx236 is referring to the rapid succession of presidents from around the time of the Orange Revolution onwards. The reconciliation process with Poland over past atrocities, just as one example, went into a complete turn around under Yanukovych. There are a lot of overlaps with Holodomor in modern politics, and these issues should probably be dealt with in that article. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:45, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
@Iryna Harpy: No, he is not referring to Ukrainian presidents, he is referring to "200 presidents in the whole world". Vanjagenije (talk) 00:13, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
@Vanjagenije: Ah, I see. I misunderstood. Would I be correct in assuming that using both the photo of Yanukovych and Medvedev at the 75th anniversary Remembrance Day (a duplication of content in the body) right next to it is a little WP:POINTy and misleading? I'm not sure of what the content is in aid of, particularly given that Russia does not recognise Holodomor as being anything outside of being part of a broader Soviet famine. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 02:45, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
As an update, I've gone BOLD and removed both the photo and duplicated text in the body of the 'Remembrance' section for Ukraine as WP:UNDUE. There's no context for the content other than WP:OTHERSTUFF. If anything it's misleading parading Yanukovych and Medvedev as if they held a political position recognising Holodomor (in fact, it's hypocrisy that shouldn't feature). 2010 was actually the 74th anniversary, and there's nothing to make this particular commemoration more important or unique than than any subsequent ones. This is an article on 'Holodomor', not a PR piece for Yanu and the RF. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:00, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
Yes, that were good removals - I agree. My very best wishes (talk) 20:37, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
I'm sorry for my lack of precision, I meant "not a PR piece for Yanu and the RF".Xx236 (talk) 06:59, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
The picture had been happily expelled from here but it recently resurfaced in Memorial in Commemoration of Famines' Victims in Ukraine.Xx236 (talk) 11:19, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
@Xx236: Yes, I've seen it. I haven't had time to do more work on the series of articles surrounding Holodomor for a few weeks, but I intend to remove it from there as well. Not only does the title of that article need to be changed to reflect the 2015 change to the museum, if photographs of international ambassadors paying tribute to the victims are needed, there are other photos of dignitaries from the other side of the world available for usage. Aside from obvious factors discussed on this talk page, it also makes it promotes an understanding for the reader that it is a subject of only localised interest between Ukraine and Russia and trivialises the extent of its being an issue of global recognition to one extent or another. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:20, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
I've just removed the image and caption in question yet again as there appeared to be a consensus for its removal. It was restored without discussion on January 31st. If there is a valid argument for the use of this image, would editors please bring their rationale for discussion before simply restoring something after a month (i.e., please follow WP:BRD). Cheers, all. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:31, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

Genocide[edit]

How can there be any doubt that it was genocide? It was demonstrably a deliberate attempt to starve the entire population of Ukraine to death. I am asking because I don't see why this is disputed in the lede. (217.42.104.153 (talk) 20:10, 8 May 2016 (UTC))

Because the entire question of Holodomor as being 'genocide' is disputed. Please read through the archived talk pages and related articles. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:03, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
There is no doubt that Stalin deliberately starved Ukraine, therefore it is undeniably a genocide. (217.42.104.153 (talk) 23:07, 8 May 2016 (UTC))
Please read the top of this article talk page as I've already asked of you on your own talk page: this is an article talk page, not a WP:SOAPBOX. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 06:55, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
There is a dispute over whether Stalin targeted Ukrainians specifically. Most reliable sources say he did not. TFD (talk) 07:05, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
Which are the most reliable ? Xx236 (talk) 13:13, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
There is no doubt the starvation was deliberately aimed at Ukraine, and it is offensive to pretend otherwise. Only Russian nationalists try to deny that this was a genocide. (217.35.237.95 (talk) 12:20, 11 May 2016 (UTC))
Of course there is plenty of doubt. Read the article. Look at the maps. Russia was also affected. The grain confiscation in Ukraine was administered by Ukrainians. Lazar Kaganovich, Stanislav Kosior, Mendel Khataievich, Pavel Postyshev, Stanislav Redens, Vsevolod Balytsky, all Ukrainians, were some of the leading perpetrators of the disaster. Grain confiscation in Russia was administered by Russians. If the Ukrainian Holodomor was a genocide, it was a genocide by Soviet Ukrainians against Ukrainian peasants. Commenters also tend to overlook the fact that the Soviet Union was beset by repeated famines after WWI because of the primitive state of agriculture in the Soviet Union. Activist academics like Nikolai Starikov suggest that it didn't help that the west demanded payment for machinery in grain and timber only at a time when the Soviets were desperate for farm machinery to jump-start Soviet agriculture. In other words, the main Holodomor villains were actually the Brits. I'm just suggesting here that this topic is far below a minimum academic standard, and could use a great deal more diligent research and a great deal LESS name-calling and finger-pointing. It's got the makings of a great spy novel, for sure. Santamoly (talk) 06:18, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
WP:SOAP applies to everyone. This isn't a page for speeches (as you've implied yourself below)... and reiterating your own PPOV picked up from your own preferred blogs and forums serves no purpose but to promote a POV. Please save the oversimplification for the blogs and forums you visit. Thanks. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 20:46, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
Basic knowledge is useful - Kosior and Redens were born Polish.Xx236 (talk) 06:08, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
Then without getting bogged down in "oversimplification", how do we explain the presence of Polish-Ukrainians at the helm of a Ukrainian "genocide"? Santamoly (talk) 05:12, 22 June 2016 (UTC)


Santamoly - Lazar Kaganovich and Mendel Khataievich were Jews, not Ukrainian [like many of the Old Bolsheviks] and the others were Poles — Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.97.64.130 (talk) 22:40, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Context[edit]

This article is already too severely biased not to contextualize it in the historical series of droughts and famines in Czarist Russia, other pre-USSR territories and the early USSR - people were helped in Czarist Russia, they weren't during the Holodomor. The Holodomor was the direct result of the crazy collectivisation, which included extermination or expulsion of local leaders. Xx236 (talk) 13:23, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

Are you responding to someone? Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 18:31, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
User:MaeseLeonXx236 (talk) 06:12, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
I think he's making a speech Santamoly (talk) 04:43, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
And what are you doing here? Playing sax?Xx236 (talk) 06:02, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
I agree more background is needed. It's similar to the Great Famine. --Monochrome_Monitor 07:07, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
Which Great Famine?
The Holodomor is a part of the Soviet famine of 1932–33. Unfortunately the page is very short and the Kazakhstan famine of 1932-1933 needs to be translated from Kasakh.
The context of critics of this page is frequently Communism or Russian nationalism.Xx236 (talk) 08:42, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
I also think the conspiracies should be addressed. It's a common meme of nazis that "communist Jews" killed "20 million Christian white Ukrainians" and that bullshit. Nevermind the fact that ukraine itself only claims 3.9million dead.--Monochrome_Monitor 08:53, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
At least 6 million Ukrainians were murdered by the Soviets. (109.159.10.109 (talk) 09:13, 11 July 2016 (UTC))
Did you mean "6 million Ukrainians were murdered by Soviet Ukrainians"? Ukrainians are still murdering Ukrainians 75 years later. Are there any up-to-date numbers? Santamoly (talk) 22:10, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
Stalin actually starved 12 million Ukrainians to death in the Holodomor. Only Russian nationalists deny it was a genocide as they cannot deal with the fact they no longer matter since the Soviet Union imploded. (81.159.6.88 (talk) 18:00, 14 July 2016 (UTC))

It was genocide[edit]

Why is the article pretending it wasn't deliberate? Is the site controlled by Putin fanatics? (109.158.178.195 (talk) 12:21, 18 June 2016 (UTC))

Did you actually read the article? --jpgordon𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇 15:38, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
This IP is a sock of User:HarveyCarter, trolling as usual. Nick-D (talk) 07:33, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
What does Putin have to do with the holodomor? Can you explain? Santamoly (talk) 05:22, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
Putin is a vocal supporter of Stalin's actions in Unkraine. (109.159.10.217 (talk) 15:58, 26 June 2016 (UTC))
As far as anyone can tell, Putin has consistently and openly criticised Stalin; although he has said occasionally said that Stalin wasn't worse than Hitler.[1] The trend today in Russia is to not paper over the tyrants and butchers of the past, but to learn where they came from and why they existed. Santamoly (talk) 06:28, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
Putin is an unelected dictator like Stalin, and he has regularly defended his genocides and his illegal invasions of sovereign countries. (109.159.10.109 (talk) 09:12, 11 July 2016 (UTC))
My source contradicts you. You don't offer a source. Santamoly (talk) 22:15, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
There are multiple sources online of Putin defending his hero Stalin's genocide. Try typing putin stalin into google.
My sources are listed in my edits; you're just spouting hot air. Less kind-hearted people would call it "foaming at the mouth". Regardless, it's called "trolling" and doesn't belong in Wikipedia Santamoly (talk) 01:31, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

(81.159.6.88 (talk) 18:01, 14 July 2016 (UTC))

  1. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Stalinism