Talk:Holy War (Boston College vs. Notre Dame)
|WikiProject College football||(Rated Start-class, Low-importance)|
- 1 Suggestion to merge from Boston College Eagles football section
- 2 Use
- 3 ESPN Rivalry rankings - BYU vs. U of U is the Holy War?
- 4 i'm new to this, so bear with me please
- 5 The recent hockey edits
- 6 Ireland Trophy
- 7 Image copyright problem with Image:BostonCollegeEagles.png
- 8 "Rivalry"
- 9 2002 Vandalization controversy
- 10 Merger proposal
- 11 Assessment comment
Suggestion to merge from Boston College Eagles football section
There is currently a long, ranbling section about the same topic in the Boston College Eagles football article. I suggest cleaning it up for npov and neutral tone and then moving it here. 126.96.36.199 (talk) 20:25, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
JMM13, I realize Wake is a fine school, but your edits to this article make it clear that you need to learn more about the distiction between fact and opinion. You also have removed portions of the article that are factually accurate. You stated that you removed opinion, but then re-inserted the line "many students who dont get into ND end up at BC". Is it possible for a statement to be any more opinion than that, given that the admission stats don't back it up?
Not sure who the annoying ND fan is who keeps re editing this page, but if ND as strong a school as he argues, perhaps he might be capable of using correct grammar, and start referring to graduates of his beloved institution as "alumni" not "alums".
I removed the passage "For Boston College fans, the game is an annual chance to show that Boston College is a worthy spoiler in Division I-A college football. For Notre Dame, the game is their 11th most important historical rivalry, just behind USC, Michigan, Michigan State University, Navy, Army, Purdue, the University of Miami (Florida), Pittsburgh, Penn State, and the annual intrasquad Blue and Gold game." This is an opinion that is perjorative toward BC appears to be a perpetuation of an ND fan's belief that BC exists only to defeat ND. A search on ND published newspapers and websites indicates a great deal more attention to this game than Miami, Pitt, Army or Penn State, which indicates a factual flaw in this statement.
Disagree with the merge with the Ireland Trophy and Leahy Bowl. These are two seperate awards, started at different times, by different organizations. AriGold 12:05, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
- I incorporated most of the info from these two articles into the section called "Trophies." --Mulenberg 17:20, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Page is temporarily protected until vandals find something else to do. --DanielCD 16:52, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
This term is not used or recognized by any Notre Dame fans. Don't know where you are finding proof of this. --MrCalifornia 03:18, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
- A quick survey of major media outlets shows that this term has currency by parties neutral to the rivalry. Some examples: CBS (http://cbs.sportsline.com/login?xurl=/nfl/story/7825520), CNN/Sports Illustrated (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/college/news/1998/11/03/week11_previews/), USA Today (http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/USAToday/access/56239298.html?FMT=FT&FMTS=FT&date=Nov+9%2C+1992&author=Michael+Hiestand&pub=USA+TODAY+(pre-1997+Fulltext)&desc=Trumpy%2C+Enberg+make+game+worth+watching), New York Daily News (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/120451p-108484c.html) --188.8.131.52 02:48, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
The term isn't really used by BC fans either, who are more likely to nickname it the Vatican Bowl. In fact, there were hats with that term made unofficially in the 1990s. Holy War seems to be a media term, as noted by the citations above.
- The article itself was lacking references, so I cited the ones above in addition to some others. When/if I have the time I'll try to do the same for these other nicknames, though they are more colloquial. 184.108.40.206 (talk) 00:41, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
--> The Ireland Trophy, created by the two schools' respective student governments in 1994, is presented annually "as a token of goodwill, camaraderie and friendly rivalry" to the winner of the game.
How can it be presented annually when the teams don't play every year? What about in 2005 and 2006 when the teams didn't play? Who got to keep the trophy? The previous winner? In any case it isn't presented annually in those situations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 04:40, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
ESPN Rivalry rankings - BYU vs. U of U is the Holy War?
ESPN's Ranking college football's best rivalries lists BYU vs. U of U as the "Holy War". It fails to list BC at all, and ND's rivalry is with USC. As a Utah resident I have noticed that the "Holy War" term is consistently used for the BYU-U of U rivalry. I actually was considering creating a page on the rivalry (especially with its rivalry extending back to 1942 or earlier) until I discovered this page. Any ideas on what should happen?
I think the term Holy War arose because both schools are Catholic. While anyone can use any term they want in sportswriting, I am not clear how the BYU vs U of U game should be called this since Utah is not a religiously-founded institution. If another Mormon school were playing BYU it could make sense. Anyway, I think Vatican Bowl is a funnier name for the ND-BC thing, but I guess it was too politically incorrect to catch on.
My guess is that the use of "Holy War" in Utah is, to a degree, ironic. BYU is, of course, owned and operated by the LDS Church. Utah, on the other hand, is not only public, but is from my understanding ferociously secular. — Dale Arnett 07:10, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
- I live in Utah, and I have heard it referred to as the Holy War before. Never made much sense to me either, but whatever. bob rulz 08:05, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
i'm new to this, so bear with me please
this article should not be wasting space on the internet. the rivalry was fun enough while it lasted, which was incredibly short, but it's over. somebody who knows how to should just delete the whole damn thing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mitnibobo (talk • contribs) 07:21, November 30 2005(UTC)
- Hi there, if you feel the article should be deleted, the deletion critieria is shown here and the nomination process for deleting articles is outlined here. - Akamad 07:25, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
- The subject certainly is notable, but it is marred with severe POV problems. For instance, the games selected as "notable" are arbitrary, and the names assigned to them are colloquial and are also arbitrary and biased. For instance, who refers to the most recent game as the "Beatdown in Beantown" The name is not sourced and qualifies as Original Research. Moreover, the nature and extent of the rivalry is not clearly defined. Finally, the disagreement among Notre Dame fans about whether BC is considered a true rival is never mentioned. This is an encyclopedia, not a sports blog. This article as it stands now is blog material.Tedmoseby (talk) 08:11, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
The recent hockey edits
I reverted all the hockey stuff. While the use of the word "rival" is debatable even for football as the two schools are not in the same conference and don't regularly play; it is clearly not appropriate to expand this to hockey, where the teams only play sporadically. Please remember to follow consensus. -- KelleyCook (talk) 14:27, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
- You reverted more than the hockey stuff. You also deleted the cited references of the term as it relates to the football game. 18.104.22.168 (talk) 06:18, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
- But your point is well taken, and you're right to distinguish between the "rivalry" (real or imagined) and the use of the term "Holy War." Whether or not a rivalry exists, the term clearly does and is well documented in the mainstream media. That said, the fact that the term "holy war" was also used by the media in the context of the recent hockey championship strikes me as entirely appropriate for an article on this term. Based on that, I've restored the previous edits that deal with the use of the term "Holy War" while omitting those that dealt with the "rivalry" in general. 22.214.171.124 (talk) 06:18, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
KelleyCook, what "consensus" you are referring to? The two teams do indeed play regularly--annually in fact. The fact that they are not in the same conference is a non sequitur. A simple google search for "holy war" and "hockey" suggests that:
- that ND-BC is indeed a major out-of-conference hockey rivalry
- that the term "holy war" is widespread in describing the rivalry by hockey media
- that both the rivalry and the term are recognized and used even by the players themselves.
Recent edits have gone back and for on whether this trophy was created by the student government at Notre Dame or by both school's student governments. I cannot find anything to suggest the BC student government's involvement in its creation. Please cite a source before re-attributing it. 126.96.36.199 (talk) 06:18, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Image copyright problem with Image:BostonCollegeEagles.png
The image Image:BostonCollegeEagles.png is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
- That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
- That this article is linked to from the image description page.
The following images also have this problem:
This is certainly a "rivalry" and should be referred to as such in the opening paragraph. In fact I would say in the bigger picture this is much more of a rivalry than say ND-USC or BC-Miami, since ND and BC fight for the same students, faculty, grants, scholarships, etc. as well as clout/prestige within the Catholic church and academia generally. Case in point, an article penned by a ND professor formerly at BC:
While this background is inappropriate for the article itself since so much of it is POV, it underscores the depth and breadth of the relationship between these two Catholic schools. 188.8.131.52 (talk) 16:40, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
2002 Vandalization controversy
Allegedly, the Chicago Tribune reported the incident of Boston College vandalizing the Notre Dame visitor's locker room in 2002 as a post-game celebration, for which Boston College later paid Notre Dame an undisclosed amount of retribution money. However, further research is needed to substantiate this claim, not just scuttlebutt. Bullmoosebell (talk) 18:19, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
Frank Leahy Memorial Bowl into Holy War (Boston College vs. Notre Dame). The content is repetitive and the trophy is notable primarily because of the rivalry, where information about it would best be presented in the appropriate context. It also follows the established precedent of other rivalry trophies being described or merged within a parent rivalry article.CrazyPaco (talk) 21:20, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
- Merge. This should be a complete no-brainer. The article to be merged consists of a total of three sentences describing the trophy. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:49, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section., and are posted here for posterity. Following
|This article has major bias and POV problems. For instance, the games selected as "notable" are arbitrary, and the names assigned to them are colloquial and are also arbitrary and biased. This is an encyclopedia, not a sports blog.Tedmoseby (talk) 08:06, 21 December 2008 (UTC)|
Last edited at 08:06, 21 December 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 18:11, 29 April 2016 (UTC)