Talk:Hristo Tatarchev

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Untitled[edit]

It is truth that Macedonians in Republic of Macedonia regard him as Macedonian, Bulgarians regard him as Bulgarian. If H.Tatarchev while still living regarded himself like both of nations (in ethnic sense) it would be NPOV to write Bulgarian/Macedonian (etnic group) or Macedonian (etnic group)/Bulgarian. But what we can do if we can not find some evidences that H.P. had a Macedonian ethnic consciousness? If he fought for Macedonia like one of the local Bulgarians? Then it would be honest to define him like Bulgarian revolutionary and then to specify that in RoM he is regarded like ethnic Macedonian. It is just an oppinion. --AleksandarH 20:08, 2 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

is this a talk page or article page? what could be vandalism here? i'm expressing my opinions. view history —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.125.225.85 (talk) 10:10, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Your racism is not welcome here because, among other things, Wikipedia is not a forum. — Toдor Boжinov — 11:15, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A newspaper clipping in a language that is unclear to readers of the English-language Wikipedia older then 100 years as reliable source![edit]

Per Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (history), historical scholarship is generally not:

Journalism
Opinion pieces by non-scholars
Popular works that were not reviewed, especially works by journalists, or memoirs—these may be useful to supplement an article that relies upon scholarly sources
Any primary source, etc. Jingiby (talk) 17:21, 31 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Per Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (history), to determine scholarly opinions about a historical topic, consult the following sources in order:

Recent scholarly books and chapters on the historiography of the topic
"Review Articles", or historiographical essays that explicitly discuss recent scholarship in an area.
Similarly conference papers that were peer reviewed in full before publication that are field reviews or have as their central argument the historiography.
Journal articles or peer reviewed conference papers that open with a review of the historiography. Thank you. Jingiby (talk) 05:13, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A good example of what modern reliable source concludes about the view of Tatarchev on the Macedonian issue is given in the book of İpek Yosmaoğlu, "Blood Ties: Religion, Violence and the Politics of Nationhood in Ottoman Macedonia, 1878–1908", Cornell University Press, 2013, ISBN 0801469791, on pp. 15-16. as follows: The modern Macedonian historiographic equation of IMRO demands for autonomy with a separate and distinct national identity does not necessarily jibe with the historical record. A rather obvious problem is the very title of the organization, which included Thrace in addition to Macedonia. Thrace whose population was never claimed by modern Macedonian nationalism... There is, moreover, the not less complicated issue of what autonomy meant to the people who espoused it in their writings. According to Hristo Tatarchev, their demand for autonomy was motivated not by an attachment to Macedonian national identity but out of concern that an explicit agenda of unification with Bulgaria would provoke other small Balkan nations and the Great Powers to action. Macedonian autonomy, in other words, can be seen as a tactical diversion, or as “Plan B” of Bulgarian unification. Jingiby (talk) 05:33, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In fact this newspaper clipping is result of the pseudo-scientific activity of some Macedonian ultra-nationalists in Australia on Facebook. Jingiby (talk) 09:24, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ah yes the ultra-nationalists must have infiltrated the Digital Library of Slovenia… if you ask me these ultra-nationalistic hackers could have done a much better job making Tatarchev appear more pro-Macedonian... /s --Local hero ^talk 16:02, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Use of primary sources again[edit]

Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation.
A primary source may be used on Wikipedia only to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge. Any interpretation needs a secondary source.
Do not analyze, evaluate, interpret, or synthesize material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so.
Do not base an entire article on primary sources, and be cautious about basing large passages on them.Jingiby (talk) 07:19, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Letter from Hristo Tatarchevs wife.webp

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 07:23, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Persecution from communist regime[edit]

I did not understand why the referenced information that Tatarchev was fleeing the communist regime in Italy was removed several times. He was even more persecuted for his beliefs then. I added it again with two additional sources. Thanks. Jingiby (talk) 17:57, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Jingiby prior to my sentence restructuring, that information was presented in a seperate sentence without a source - ergo not sourced. I've also corrected a grammatical mistake and given a clarification in regards to the content. Best regards. Kluche (talk) 18:30, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Improper use of Macedonia Bulgarian and Bulgarian[edit]

instead of starting a small edit war ive decided to write this thread aimed towards @Jingiby recent claims, the problem with his claims is he believes the term "Macedonian Bulgarian" isn't accurate for Hristo Tatarchev despite the fact his wiki contains this tag and hes addressed as a Macedonian Bulgarian, but according to Jingbys logic he had a Bulgarian citizenship and was affiliated with Bulgarian churches

The problem with this is almost all Macedonians in Macedonia at the time worked with the church or were baptized in said church, as a matter of fact Koco Racin a known Macedonian poet was born and baptized under the Bulgarian church but that doesn't make him "Bulgarian" but instead the more accurate term for Tatarchev is "Macedonian Bulgarian"

Also on the matters of the citizenship, of what I'm aware off in old Bulgaria you didn't have to declare yourself as a Bulgarian to gain Bulgarian citizenship (im not exactly aware of what exactly had to do to gain citizenship) so this isn't a proper reason at all

Also this last reason confused me the most "it's already mentioned in the article" so? of what i remember nowhere in Wikipedia is it stated that you cant mention something a few times, as a matter of fact it can sometimes be good instead of bad, to me these reasons make no proper sense since "Macedonian Bulgarian" is just a Bulgarian in Macedonia. Gurther (talk) 16:29, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

He had only Bulgarian (without Macedonian) ethnicity, citizenship, nationality and Church affiliation. Macedonian Bulgarian is an ethnographic group mentioned twice in the article. Where is the problem to mention simply Bulgarian on a single place? Jingiby (talk) 16:34, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ive already explained in my comment on the issues with these claims, and i have a question for you, why do you not accept this term despite him being labeled a Macedo Bulgarian in tags in name in introduction, what makes the short description suddenly such a problem for you? i am seriously confused, a Macedo Bulgarian/Exarch means a Bulgarian in Macedonia, and Tatarchev fills that description. Gurther (talk) 16:56, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For now you did not reach any consensus to change this description, moreover I don't understand your concerns. Let's give a possibility of another editors to express their opinions. Regards. Jingiby (talk) 17:01, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

i didn't attempt to reach a consensus earlier becaused i assumed that a simple correction of his ethnic group would not cause a problem, but apprently you've seemed to disagree, im not usually one to predict stuff but i assume not a lot of editors have issue with it changing from Macedonian Bulgarian since it means the same thing at the end of the day. Gurther (talk) 17:07, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Jingiby I support Gurther's proposed change, I think it's the most accurate and concise formulation. Best regards. Kluche (talk) 18:12, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Jingiby i will add the term "Macedonian Bulgarian" for Tatarchev and if you have any objections i advise you share them now otherwise I'll be adding the term Gurther (talk) 19:05, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]