Talk:Ian Fleming

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Featured articleIan Fleming is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on October 23, 2012.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
December 17, 2011Good article nomineeListed
May 17, 2012Peer reviewReviewed
July 26, 2012Featured article candidateNot promoted
September 14, 2012WikiProject A-class reviewApproved
September 20, 2012Featured article candidatePromoted
Current status: Featured article

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Sanitisation[edit]

For a featured article, which by definition represents the very pinnacle of thoroughness and exhaustive effort, there is literally nothing mentioned about Fleming's sexual predilections (though I note with great interest the epic battles being fought over the placing of full stops). Is this article being deliberately sanitised?

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Nationality[edit]

Born in England to a Scottish father, Fleming was raised to, and indeed did, identify himself as Scottish. (See here: https://lecercleclub.com/2012/12/20/the-playboy-interview-ian-fleming-december-1964/). Perhaps avoid controversy and describe him as British rather than English? Tom (talk) 01:38, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Not sure.
(1) The Playboy interview contains one reference to Scotland, a throwaway joke that is clearly not meant to be construed as a serious claim to identity. The introduction, on the other hand, refers to Fleming as "an Englishman" ... twice.
(2) Fleming's father was really only half-Scottish, and even that only in terms of heritage. Fleming's paternal grandfather was a Scotsman from Dundee but his paternal grandmother was from England. The father was educated in England, spent most of his time in England, served in an English cavalry regiment, and was an MP for an English constituency.
(3) Modern introductions to Bond novels do not seem to mention Scotland at all. They mention Fleming's English place of birth and his English education. From the 2012 Vintage Books edition of Goldfinger, for example: "Ian Lancaster Fleming was born in London on 28 May 1908 and was educated at Eton College before spending a formative period studying languages in Europe." Some introductions stress his specifically English (not British) outlook and the specifically English (not British) nature of his chauvinism. The 2012 Vintage Books edition of Live and Let Die for example points out that Fleming saw the world "as it appeared to a privileged upper-middle-class Englishman with a complete lack of self-doubt."
I'd say there's no strong reason to drag Scotland into this. Kramler (talk) 11:14, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Fleming's fiancee[edit]

The article refers to "Monique Panchaud de Bottomes," to whom Fleming was briefly engaged in 1931. This may be the way it was spelt in the Henry Chancellor book that's cited as a source, but it's wrong nonetheless. Her name was Monique Panchaud de Bottens; she later married George de Mestral, the inventor of hook and loop fasteners. Not a source that can be cited I know, but she's at this family tree website. The correct spelling has been provided to me by her son. Hopefully there's another reliable source that can be located to correct that. BlackCab (TALK) 05:42, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

There are several reliable sources that say otherwise. A Google search even shows a letter from her on sale at Christies, and Google Books shows numerous references. A search using Bottens shows free family tree information and nothing reliable (from a very quick spin through the results). - SchroCat (talk) 05:57, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
Interesting, though as this website acknowledges, the misspelling was a common error while the Ian Fleming.com website spells it differently again. This Swiss website also spells it as Bottens. What are the "reliable sources" and can you provide a link to the letter please? I can't find that one. I'd put my money on her son's spelling any day, but whether "reliable" sources exist that prove that is another thing. BlackCab (TALK) 06:18, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
The book sources I have, including Andrew Lycett's detailed (and heavily researched) biography of Fleming, and Pearson's; it's also in the Macintyre's book and a few others. - SchroCat (talk) 06:43, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
What's the link for the image of the letter? I'm interested in seeing if her surname appears in her own hand. BlackCab (TALK) 06:47, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
No - my mistake, having read it through more closely, it's not from a letter (it's here). What I suggest is that we add a footnote to the article to provide the alternate spelling, using a couple of the sources that are from the more reliable sources (such as the Fleming website). Does that sound like a way round it? - SchroCat (talk) 06:50, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
A footnote is the best that can be done, I agree. The Ian Fleming website has a third spelling entirely, which is almost certainly wrong. Given the information from Monique's son, I know Bottens is correct and Bottomes is incorrect (and the website I linked to gives a plausible explanation of how the confusion arose), but I know of no source that would qualify as a reliable source for Wikipedia's purposes that gives the correct spelling. My guess is that biographers simply copied each other, as I would have done in the (non-Wiki) project I'm working on had it not been for direct contact with the family. Hopefully by raising the issue here it may flush out someone who has a more reliable source. BlackCab (TALK) 07:20, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Right, a slight U-turn on my part. Looking for a good source for the footnote, not only did I find one (Sunday Telegraph), I also found a tweet from Andrew Lycett saying he was glad they spelled the name correctly. On that basis I've put Bottens in the body and Bottomes in the footnote, which keeps us within the bounds of good practice, and should keep her son happy that we are using the proper name 'up front', rather than just a footnote. Hope this is OK with you. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 08:08, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
Excellent outcome. Thanks. BlackCab (TALK) 09:06, 18 June 2018 (UTC)