Talk:Igor Sikorsky

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Igor Sikorsky's quote on "flight"[edit]

Civilization 5 has a great quote by Igor Sikorsky when you discover flight, "Aeronautics was neither an industry nor a science. It was a miracle.".

I think it should be included in this article.

Igor Sikorski was a Polish[edit]

Igor Sikorsky [his real family name was Sikorski (very popular Polish surname), changed it in US]

The origin of the Sikorski family is in the Polish nobility that was deported after the failure of the January Uprising. Father of Igor Sikorski was Polish. On the January Uprising Father of Igor Sikorski was fight for Polish freedom, against Russian terror. Of course Ivan Alexeevich Sikorsky was a son and grandson of Orthodox Russian Church priests (But this not mean that they was Russian).

Mother of Igor, was half Ukrainian (on the paternal side) and half Russian (on the maternal side). In Communism time, many of Polish newspaper wrote that Igor Sikorski descent is Russian, but he was very unhappy for that, because he don't feel it.

http://www.456fis.org/IGOR_SIKORSKY.htm http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:VfttPpr7-_AJ:www.poland.us/strona,13,12086,0,igor-sikorski-konstruktor-na-zsylce.html+&cd=8&hl=pl&ct=clnk&gl=pl — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.25.128.127 (talk) 09:59, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Sikorsky was descended from Poles, Russians and Ukrainians, but he self-identified as Russian. He spoke Russian, was a prominent member of the Russian immigrant community in the US, and faithfully attended a Russian Orthodox church. That's backed up by reliable published sources, including his own writings, and by his children. Polish immigrants in the US had their own communities and churches, and Sikorsky could have associated with them if he wanted to, but he obviously didn't. The Ukrainians try to claim he was Ukrainian also, but he didn't associate with them either. - BilCat (talk) 11:14, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
Citing that "He spoke Russian, was a prominent member of the Russian immigrant community in the US, and faithfully attended a Russian Orthodox church" is WP:OR. Reliable sources, such as A to Z of STS Scientists by Elizabeth H. Oakes, state he was Ukrainian-American[1]. --Nug (talk) 18:33, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Ukrainian American nationality[edit]

I'm not sure why this[2] was reverted as it was referenced to two reliable sources. --Nug (talk) 18:26, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Because there are many other sources identifying him as Russian-American, including autobiographical. - BilCat (talk) 18:33, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
However we shouldn't exclude those reliable sources that identify him as Ukrainian-American, they are equally valid, otherwise that would be POV. At the very least both should be mentioned. --Nug (talk) 18:38, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Encyclopedia Britannica clearly states: Ukrainian-born American, Ukrainian-born American engineer (It is written by about 100 full-time editors and more than 4,000 contributors, who have included 110 Nobel Prize winners and five American presidents.) see citation http://www.britannica.com/biography/Igor-Ivan-Sikorsky JimChan (talk) 10:40, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

Making it in America: A Sourcebook on Eminent Ethnic Americans By Elliott Robert Barkan

Sikorsky, Igor I. (1889-1972); Aircraft designer and inventor; Ethnicity: Ukrainian

Elliott Robert Barkan uses 4 references and states Igor Sikorsky's ethnicity as Ukrainian JimChan (talk) 10:34, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

Mr. Sikorsky was not born a U.S. citizen. He was born in Ukraine and acquired U.S. citizenship through a process of naturalization; therefore, he was a Ukrainian-born American. JimChan (talk) 17:41, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

@JimChan: I don't know why online version of britanica is different to the printed version 2006 of Britannica Concise Encyclopedia, page 1751 [3].

The printed version would be considered more reliable, which showed Sikorsky was "Russian-U.S. pioneer in aircraft design. After studying engineering in Kiev".

Want more, search [4], some results:

LIFE - 21 Jun 1943 - Page 91

Russia at War: From the Mongol Conquest to Afghanistan

Furthermore, father of Sikorsky - Ivan Alekseevich Sikorsky was a Russian nationalist, who participated in Kiev Club of Russian Nationalists [5]

page 167: Ivan Alekseevich Sikorsky (1842-1919), an ardent Russian nationalist, a psychiatrist....

page 177: Sikorsky insisted that because Ukrainians did not have their own racial history that would differ from the history of the Russian race, there could not be a Ukrainian nation

In an interview with his son, Sergei in 2009, it showed his son and Sirkorsky considered themselves Russian rather than Ukrainian: [6]

"I know that among the employees of the company Sikorsky in America were Petersburgers. Tell us about them. --- The firm Sikorsky - a Russian company, where Russian specialists worked" - duqus (Duqus (talk) 07:31, 26 June 2016 (UTC))

Britannica clearly states that he is Russian-born American aircraft designer. It is written by about 100 full-time editors and more than 4,000 contributors, who have included 110 Nobel Prize winners and five American presidents. http://www.britannica.com/biography/Igor-Ivan-Sikorsky/images-videos/Igor-Sikorsky-Russian-born-American-aircraft-designer/14338 (Duqus (talk) 12:19, 26 June 2016 (UTC))

Conquering[edit]

Hi Bill, you write in in your latest change that flying boats were "conquering" the oceans. Could you please explain in what way that term fits?

From dictionary.com:

verb (used with object)
1.
to acquire by force of arms; win in war:
to conquer a foreign land.
2.
to overcome by force; subdue:
to conquer an enemy.
3.
to gain, win, or obtain by effort, personal appeal, etc.:
conquer the hearts of his audience.
4.
to gain a victory over; surmount; master; overcome:
to conquer disease and poverty; to conquer one's fear.

Thanks! -62.155.198.25 (talk) 07:04, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

It means they made it easy to cross the oceans, doing it in hours instead of days or weeks. - BilCat (talk) 07:08, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
Shouldn't we call them "ocean-crossing" then? Where do you get your definition from?-62.155.198.25 (talk) 07:12, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
They didn't simply cross the ocean, they made crossing the ocean easier. If you want a strict dictionary definition, synonyms would be subdue, surmount, master, or overcome. - BilCat (talk) 07:15, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
So first and foremost, they were "ocean-crossing". Did they make it easier than earlier planes? Maybe, maybe not, but that shouldn't be topic of the lede of a marginally related article. In any case, the term "conquering" has a certain meaning, as shown in the quote above, and you still couldn't point out why it's used. The term does not fit. -62.155.198.25 (talk) 07:20, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
Actually I did show it, your inability to understand it it isn't my problem. Pan Am didn't have earlier planes that could cross the oceans in scheduled airline service, that is the point. All that was available before were ships - BilCat (talk) 07:32, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, it's always the stupidity of the others that is the problem. There is NO exception.
Sikorsky's flying boats were the first planes to cross the ocean? If not, why do you claim that "All that was available before were ships"? Why is Pan Am ownership of planes relevant, if others already crossed the ocean?-62.155.198.25 (talk) 07:39, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
You're missing the point. It's not simply crossing an ocean as Lindbergh and others did occasionally, but doing so in regular airline service. That didn't happen before, which is why simply saying "crossing" is inadequate.- BilCat (talk) 07:50, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Nationality: Ukrainian-born American[edit]

Encyclopedia Britannica clearly states: Ukrainian-born American, Ukrainian-born American engineer

(It is written by about 100 full-time editors and more than 4,000 contributors, who have included 110 Nobel Prize winners and five American presidents.)

see citation http://www.britannica.com/biography/Igor-Ivan-Sikorsky JimChan (talk) 10:36, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

Mr. Sikorsky was not born a U.S. citizen. He was born in Ukraine and acquired U.S. citizenship through a process of naturalization; therefore, he was a Ukrainian-born American. JimChan (talk) 17:40, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

He was also born in the Russian Empire, and was a citizen of Russia, as has been discussed and cited before. All Britannica claims is that he was born in Kiev, which is now part of Ukraine. They don't discuss his ethnicity. - BilCat (talk) 05:28, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

Russian Empire vs. Russian Federation vs. Russia

These are not the same country. Mr. Sikorsky NEVER was a citizen of Russia. You state an incorrect information. Mr. Sikorsky was a citizen of a different country -- Russian Empire. Ukraine back then was part of this Russian Empire. - JimChan (talk) 05:32, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

That's semantics. Russia = Russian Empire, and that's how I meant it. Also, don't place warnings on this page. - BilCat (talk) 05:39, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
That's NOT semantics. Russia and Russian Empire is not the same country. Russian Empire is ALSO Ukraine, Belarus, Poland, Finland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania ... JimChan (talk) 05:44, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
It's called the "Russian Empire" for a reason - it was never called the Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Poland, Finland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania Empire. - BilCat (talk) 06:26, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

Please provide references supporting the changes and claims that you made about Igor Sikorsky. So far your only reference is Russian nationalistic blog of “Russian World” JimChan (talk) 05:41, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

I haven't cited anything from Russian World, and I've never even seen nor read it. - BilCat (talk) 06:26, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
No, you did. You chanced content to one from a nationalistic "Russian World" blog. BilCat: "Following the Russian Revolution, Sikorsky became a White emigre and opposed Soviet rule.[1]" - JimChan (talk) 07:51, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
Britannica online article was contributed by an individual just like Wikipedia

Printed version, published on 2006, clearly stated that he is Russian-born. (Duqus (talk) 11:54, 26 June 2016 (UTC))

Online article of Britannica was written by contributor, the same as Wikipedia, in particular, in this case, written by S. Paul Johnston. Printed edition is more reliable. (Duqus (talk) 03:05, 27 June 2016 (UTC))
In 2015, funny, Ukrainians actively in rewriting history, Sikorsky's birth information on Britannica's online article was edited by lesya yurchyshyn [7]. (Duqus (talk) 04:53, 30 June 2016 (UTC))

Ethnicity: Ukrainian[edit]

Making it in America: A Sourcebook on Eminent Ethnic Americans By Elliott Robert Barkan

Sikorsky, Igor I. (1889-1972); Aircraft designer and inventor; Ethnicity: Ukrainian

Elliott Robert Barkan uses 4 references and states Igor Sikorsky's ethnicity as Ukrainian JimChan (talk) 10:36, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

Other sources claim he's exclusively of Russian ethnicity, and some claim he's partially or wholly Polish. They can't all be right. The best WP can do is publish what reliable sources claim. Simply declaring yours reliable and the others not is unacceptable. - BilCat (talk) 05:30, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

Please provide references supporting the changes and claims that you made about Igor Sikorsky. So far your only reference is Russian nationalistic blog of “Russian World” - JimChan (talk) 05:41, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

You keep removing them. One is from the Sikorsky Archives, which ought to know,since he founded the company.
When he responds to questions regarding his roots, he would answer: “My family is of Russian origin. My grandfather and other ancestors from the time of Peter the Great were Russian Orthodox priests. Consequently, the Russian nationality of the family must be considered as well established”. In his autobiography, “The Story of the Winged S”, he wrote, “I was born on May 25th, 1889, in Kiev, situated in south western Russia.”. [8] - BilCat (talk) 05:51, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
Yes, he was born in "south western" part of Russian Empire (short Russia) -- Ukraine. Ukraine was back then "south western" part of Russian Empire (short Russia). (But his ethnicity was Ukrainian.) See map of Russian Empire (Finland, Poland, Ukraine were part of Russian Empire)http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/media/photo/map-russian-empire-1914 He was born in "south western" part of Russian Empire (Ukraine) and acquired U.S. citizenship through a process of naturalization; therefore, his nationality was a Ukrainian-born American. Why do you keep changing his nationality to Russian? JimChan (talk) 06:08, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
That source doesn't say he was of Ukrainian ethnicity. It does imply he was of Russian ethnicity, especially with the mention of his family being Russian Orthodox. That's partly why I removed the ethnicity claim from the infobox. But if you're going to include claims to Ukrainian ethnicity, then other claims need to be included too. It may be that you're using "ethnicity" to mean something different than what it generally means in English. In English, it usually refers to his genetic and cultural identity. Genetically, he may well be Polish, Russian, and Ukrainian. Culturally, he appears to have identified as Russian. - BilCat (talk) 06:18, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
He was born in "south western" part of Russian Empire (Ukraine) and acquired U.S. citizenship through a process of naturalization; therefore, his nationality was a Ukrainian-born American (south western part of Russian Empire-born American). Why do you keep changing his nationality to Russian? JimChan (talk) 06:31, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
Because the nation he was born in was the "Russian Empire (short Russia)". That's what his nationality means in English. - BilCat (talk) 06:33, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
No, south western part of Russian Empire (Ukraine) is his place of birth. Nationality in English means: "Nationality is the legal relationship between a person and a state" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationality Again, repeating for a third time facts supported by references: Igor Sykorsky was born in "south western" part of Russian Empire (Ukraine) and acquired U.S. citizenship through a process of naturalization; therefore, his nationality was a Ukrainian-born American. -- JimChan (talk) 06:43, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
The state was the Russian Empire. - BilCat (talk) 06:47, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
Most of his life, ~2/3, his state was United States of America. There is no such state as Russian Empire. Russian Empire was ALSO Ukraine, Belarus, Poland, Finland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania ... JimChan (talk) 07:00, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── The 1989 edition of Funk & Wagnalls Encyclopedia calls him a "Russian-born American". I'm sure it's not the only one. - BilCat (talk) 06:50, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

Please provide a link. JimChan (talk) 07:02, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
The link that you have provided is to a Russian propaganda blog of "Russian World" -- Russian propaganda lies and highly questionable content. Please provide a link to support your claims of 1989 edition of Funk & Wagnalls. - JimChan (talk) 08:00, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
That was in the version I reverted too. I should have reverted further back. Funk & Wagnalls is a print encyclopedia. Your local library may be able to find one for you. It's still a reliable source per WP's guidelines. - BilCat (talk) 08:18, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
Please try to comment in one place. It's very confusing when you post the same thing twice in two places, and then add on more. - BilCat (talk) 08:21, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
Basically, you don't have a link to a reputable source. You don't have a real reference to support your claims.
(You're making changes in multiple places, and forcing me to respond in multiple places.) -- JimChan (talk) 08:59, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Let's just respond here for now then. Funk & Wagnalls Encyclopedia is a reliable source. You just don't want to accept it because disagrees with your view. - BilCat (talk) 08:48, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

Your accusations are ridiculous. You're telling me (and readers of Wikipedia) to go to a library and to find an old edition of an encyclopedia to verify your claims. Multiple current encyclopedias are not good for you, because they all contradict your claims. This is a joke. Right? Since you're getting personal... Why are you removing REAL references (links) to highly reputable sources? Why do you change content without providing the references to support your claims? It appears you're having a Russian propagandistic agenda. You use Russian Neo-Nazi “Russian World” propaganda blog as references, and remove everything mentioning Ukraine. Why? -- JimChan (talk) 09:05, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
Reliable sources are not required to be online, per WP:RS. - BilCat (talk) 09:11, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
@JimChan:You wrote: Elliott Robert Barkan uses 4 references and states Igor Sikorsky's ethnicity as Ukrainian, BUT you don't known which books stated that he is Ukrainian, don't you!?

So, instead of saying that, you must cited from 4 references he mentioned to prove.

In one of the references Barkan provided, the autobiography of Sikorsky, he never mentioned he is Ukrainian: The Story of the Winged­S: An Autobiography

I hope that Barkan didn't cite Wikipedia for his book! :) (Duqus (talk) 11:50, 26 June 2016 (UTC))

Making it in America: A Sourcebook on Eminent Ethnic Americans

By Elliott Robert Barkan

He cited from other sources, which I could cited from others (reliable ones) which contradict from what this book states.

Also, his book did not clearly show which his sources stated that Sikorsky is Ukrainian. So, you must show which references he used stated that. ;) (Duqus (talk) 11:58, 26 June 2016 (UTC))

Russian ethnicity[edit]

While many books, include the Britannica, point out that Sikorsky is Russian. His family consider themselves Russian, and Wikipedia shows that he is Ukrainian?

Printed version 2006 of Britannica Concise Encyclopedia, page 1751 [9].

Excerpt: "Russian-U.S. pioneer in aircraft design. After studying engineering in Kiev".

MANY more books show the same result [10]

Furthermore, father of Sikorsky - Ivan Alekseevich Sikorsky was a Russian nationalist, who participated in Kiev Club of Russian Nationalists [11]

page 167: Ivan Alekseevich Sikorsky (1842-1919), an ardent Russian nationalist, a psychiatrist....

page 177: Sikorsky insisted that because Ukrainians did not have their own racial history that would differ from the history of the Russian race, there could not be a Ukrainian nation

In an interview with his son, Sergei in 2009, it showed his son and Sirkorsky considered themselves Russian rather than Ukrainian: [12]

Excerpt: "I know that among the employees of the company Sikorsky in America were Petersburgers. Tell us about them. --- The firm Sikorsky - a Russian company, where Russian specialists worked" - duqus (Duqus (talk) 07:57, 26 June 2016 (UTC)).

From http://www.sikorskyarchives.com/About_the_Archives.php

http://www.sikorskyarchives.com/sikorsky-archives-home-flash.swf, in which clearly states, "The Russian-born scientist, engineer, pilot and. entrepreneur made fixed and rotary wing aviation"

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/lockheed/data/corporate/photo/features/2015/fact-sheet-Sikorsky.pdf

"the Russian-born scientist, engineer, pilot and entrepreneur, made fixed- and rotary-wing aviation history with a mix of genius"

http://www.sikorsky.com/Lists/Assets/MissionDownloads/SAC_Pioneering_Tech_Brochure.pdf

"Igor Sikorsky was a Russian-born scientist, engineer, pilot, and entrepreneur who made fixed- and rotary-wing aviation"

http://www.sikorsky.com/Lists/eNewsletter/2013/Commlinks_0313.pdf

Some 90 years ago, on March 5, 1923, a Russian refugee named Igor Sikorsky organized a new company. In the original application, it was incorporated as the

(Duqus (talk) 12:27, 26 June 2016 (UTC))

Early life[edit]

First 1919, later 1900. Please correct the order.Xx236 (talk) 09:43, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

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  1. ^ Kutuzov, Mikhail. "The Genius of Flight" (English translation). Russian Archipelago, 2012. Retrieved: May 16, 2012.