Talk:Illuminati

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Fake[edit]

Closing this discussion before it gets out of hand. Jalen D. Folf (talk) 04:25, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This is wrong and fake Abdurrahmanchamp1 (talk) 12:41, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Could you be more specific? What exactly do you think is "wrong and fake"? Blueboar (talk) 13:16, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
This article is screaming out for reliable, modern references. We've done our best with what we can find, perhaps you can help? Fiddlersmouth (talk) 01:13, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

None of this is True. Maxwell J. Walred (talk) 12:09, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

Hello Billsmith56 (talk) 21:33, 30 June 2019 (UTC)


The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Conspiracy theory[edit]

An editor has objected to the inclusion of the term "conspiracy theorists" in this section, on the grounds that the term is "biased". Please discuss. Blueboar (talk) 12:43, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

  • I think that this is an accurate and appropriate term to use in this context. The overwhelming majority of those who say that the Illuminati still exist, do so in the context of discussing various conspiracies. It is not biased to describe those who believe in a conspiracy as being "conspiracy theorists"... it is the literal definition of that term. Blueboar (talk) 12:43, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
Absolutely support. Conspiracy theorist is more encyclopedic than nutter, but most of the survival myth was, I believe, constructed to make money out of gullible people. I have my own words, all of which would result in an editorial ban. Fiddlersmouth (talk) 23:06, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

Is this the primary scope?[edit]

"In subsequent use, "Illuminati" refers to various organisations which claim or are purported to have links to the original Bavarian Illuminati or similar secret societies, though these links are unsubstantiated."

Almost certainly the most notable and recognizable use of "Illuminati" in modern times is either as part of a conspiracy theory or as generic secretive world order used in fiction (e.g. Deus Ex). I fail to see how these supposed organisations claiming to be descended from the actual Illuminati have a higher notability (or ANY, for that matter) than the ones alleged to exist in conspiracy theories and fiction. I know I've never heard of them, and I doubt anyone - perhaps not even the groups themselves - would take it seriously. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 21:57, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

You may not have heard of these groups.... but they do exist. And while their claims to be continuations or recreations of the Bavarian Illuminati may well be bogus, that is the claim that they make. Blueboar (talk) 22:11, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
Blueboar, don't revert something when clear reason has been given for its removal. Two of the links I deleted were literally expired meaning whoever registered them could no longer be bothered with it, while the third denounced their claim of being an "Illuminati". You may want them to be, but using outdated sources to support a claim is extremely misleading. Also please read WP:NOTABILITY. Not everything that is written down should be on Wikipedia. Some unknown fraternity claiming to be related to the Illuminati is certainly one of these cases. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 22:18, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) Don't revert when you have been reverted. Use the talk page first. The reason is not clear. Even if it was, you are still edit warring. Fiddlersmouth (talk) 23:30, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
I was of the opinion that Blueboar missed the point of my deletion of the expired/redacted sources, which was quite uncontroversial as there is no point in using sources that have lost their only value. My stance of their relevance wasn't related to that. But you're right, it does count as edit warring. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 11:40, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
Prinsgezind, your concern about the expired links is somewhat valid (It is possible that some of these groups may have shit down since the article was written, and so I will see if the groups have updated websites before I restore).
As for your concern about WP:Notability, I don't need to read it, as I helped write it. That guideline only applies to the question of whether something merits having an entire article devoted to it... not whether it should be mentioned (in passing) in a related article. I would agree that these modern fraternal groups do not merit there own stand alone articles... but they certainly merit a passing (one sentence) mention in this article...if only so readers understand the difference between a) the historical order, b) these real modern groups (which either pretend to have a direct link to the historical group, or pretend to be a recreation of it) and c) the paranoid imaginings of conspiracy theorists. Blueboar (talk) 00:08, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
@Blueboar: You're also right there, I actually linked the wrong policy. I was thinking of Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion. This, though, was to justify my edit to the lead. I don't think expired sources (not broken or archived ones, mind you) are of any value when discussiong the present-day situation. But my other point was that while it's related to the subject and can be found online, the relevance of the existence of such fringe groups is very low. If we are to include information on groups that personally identify with the Illuminati, do we also include information on groups that say they're fighting the Illuminati? Because that's a rabbit hole I don't think would lead to very appropriate encyclopedic material. And that's just assuming they can be properly verified, as it would likely require resorting to the use of more self-published sources (such as the ones formerly provided) that are in no way reliable. Even as proof of existence it looks like a red flag to me:
  • "challenged claims that are supported purely by primary or self-published sources or those with an apparent conflict of interest"
  • "claims that are contradicted by the prevailing view within the relevant community, or that would significantly alter mainstream assumptions, especially in science, medicine, history, politics, and biographies of living people. This is especially true when proponents say there is a conspiracy to silence them."
Ding ding on both. I'm of the same opinion that the distinction between the actual historical group and the modern cultural/conspirational/fictional forms should be clearly distinguished, but what place do these fringe claims have in it? Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 11:40, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
re: "do we also include information on groups that say they're fighting the Illuminati?"... nope. The topic of this article is a historical fraternal order... it is "on topic" to mention (in passing) that there are modern groups that claim to be a continuation (or recreation) of that historical order... but to mention modern opposition groups takes us "off topic". Blueboar (talk) 12:00, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 August 2017[edit]

The illuminati is the devil 66.87.64.174 (talk) 15:02, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Not done Request invalid on a variety of grounds. Ian.thomson (talk) 15:15, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

18th Century Pagans?[edit]

"Christians of good character were actively sought, with Jews and pagans specifically excluded, along with women, monks, and members of other secret societies."

Is there a source for their being pagans in 18th Century Bavaria? I find it rather hard to believe, as fascinating as it would be if true.

My guess is that the word comes from one of the cited sources... note that back in the 18th and 19th century the word "pagan" had a fairly broad meaning, and was commonly used in reference to anyone who was not a Christian (or a Jew?). Blueboar (talk) 12:19, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
It comes directly from the confiscated Bavarian Illuminati documents; INSTRUCTIO PRO RECIPIENTIBUS, specifically: "Jews, pagans, women, monks, and members of other secret orders" were prohibited from joining. In 18th century enlightenment nomenclature the term pagan could equally apply to a muslim a confucianist or what today we'd term an occultist. Basically if you weren't jewish, christian or an atheist, 'pagan' covers everything else. XDev (talk) 17:27, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

Minor grammar edit to page[edit]

In the very last sentence under the 'in popular culture' section it says "Foucault's Pendulum by Umberto Eco and ." Can someone either get rid of the "and" or add in the other author (if there is any). Phishcat (talk) 21:03, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Done Blueboar (talk) 21:08, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Thanks :) Phishcat (talk) 03:12, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

Bill Cipher from Gravity Falls is based on the Illuminati.[edit]

He should be added on the Popular Culture page. Galefuun (talk) 18:03, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

I have requested a citation for that. (also... I think it too trivial to mention, but that is another issue). Blueboar (talk) 22:24, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Origins in 1960s - new source[edit]

This in-depth BBC piece chronicles the deliberate fabrication of the Illuminati myth in the 1960s counter-culture, with reference to published works. Among other important aspects, it says that the 18th-century events are more or less unrelated to the modern tale. I have not yet incorportated any of this: The accidental invention of the Illuminati conspiracy. Onanoff (talk) 09:18, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Robert Anton Wilson and Discordian literature has indeed contributed toward the myth, but they in turn had embellished upon real sources. The John Birch society, for instance, as well as the writings of Nesta Webster and Lady Queensborough. This tradition was concerned with the Master Conspiracy thesis that an overarching secret society was behind all major incidents since the French Revolution. And they had sources as well: John Robison and Abbe Barruel. It's really an unbroken tradition that goes back to the last two authors who were contemporaries of the Illuminati in the 18th century. In different eras there were varying levels of popularity, but it was always there lurking and publishing material for centuries - material that Wilson et al. made great use of.XDev (talk) 14:32, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

I wanna know if this thing exist or not. Cddkx (talk) 14:00, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

Read the article... it existed for a short time back in the 1700s. Not today. Blueboar (talk) 15:16, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

Gradal[edit]

I have no idea 'gradal' is -- if it is, indeed, a word -- nor what it's supposed to mean. Not removing it because I don't know what to replace it with. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.207.104.228 (talk) 19:02, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

A system of conferred degrees/grades: gradal system. Put it into quotes and search for its historical context if you are not aware; it's the foundation of Freemasonry and other initiatic societies.XDev (talk) 03:58, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
Hmmm... While I understand what a "gradal system" is supposed to mean, this query caused me to look further... and I can not find it in any dictionary. I also did as XDev suggests (I put it into quotes and searched for it in a historical context) and did not find it. So... I have tweaked the sentence, so those who are not already familiar with the topic will better understand. Blueboar (talk) 13:07, 15 January 2019 (UTC)


To add to "see also"[edit]

--188.171.58.80 (talk) 13:36, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Not done The majority of those are completely unrelated to those paying attention to reality instead of brainwashing themselves with conspiracy theorist delusions. Ian.thomson (talk) 13:55, 4 October 2019 (UTC)