Talk:Immanuel Kant

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edit·history·watch·refresh Stock post message.svg To-do list for Immanuel Kant:
  • The section on freedom has nothing to do with Kant's proof of freedom in the second critique. This needs to be updated.
  • Some discussion of Kant's Religion is needed in the sections on moral philosophy and on religion.
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Spinoza[edit]

Spinoza was in the list of Kant's influences. There is not even proof that Kant has read Spinoza.

"It is commonly assumed that Kant never seriously engaged with Spinoza" says an article (http://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199354801.001.0001/acprof-9780199354801) which offers an alternative view. Yuyuhunter 16:12, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Criticism section[edit]

I have added the criticism section by consensus with Govindaharihari who has edited the section I had added. Kindly view history. And there is no consensus to remove the Criticism section which I added.Arjun1491 (talk) 14:36, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

There is no consensus to add this section in the first place. Please, show us the consensus for including this quote. Antique RoseDrop me a line 14:42, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
There was a consensus, but it was done in the user page, not talk page. If there was no consensus why would a person who had removed my content goes on to edit it to fit the page ? And you need to build a consensus to remove the content. One cannot build a consensus every time a person removes his content.Arjun1491 (talk) 14:56, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
Several editors have reverted your edit, because there's simply no consensus to add this quote. You may need to read this. Antique RoseDrop me a line 15:04, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
Only you and another editor cannot consider yourselves "Several". This situation is like when a person adds a right content such as " 1+1=2 " and several editors remove it saying you will not be given consensus. You have to justify your removal and engage in a constructive debate in the talk page rather than going on a rampage like this. Majority of fools cannot silence a just and right minority.Arjun1491 (talk) 15:12, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
Drop the argumentum ad hominem. I don't fall for that. Three editors have reverted your quote. The consensus you're referring to is only yourself. You have yet to show all of us the real consensus that allegedly exists. Could you focus on that? Antique RoseDrop me a line 15:29, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
I have added the criticism section and anyone who wants to remove it can engage in a debate here and justify their reason for removal. "I will remove it because I do not like it" is not a justification. Arjun1491 (talk) 15:31, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
You have yet to show us the consensus that you're speaking of. Or isn't there any such consensus? Antique RoseDrop me a line 15:34, 1 August 2015 (UTC)


You need to SEE ? well then SEE this consensus which I had with Govindaharihari in his user talk page. And view the history to see his edit of my content for the proof that I had consensus.

Criticism : Content Addition[edit] The criticism content which I added (although bit long) is extremely Important given the scope and range of the philosophical ideas that affects societies and has the power to alter the course of history. This Criticism section is very crucial in order to let the public know about the demerits as well. People have the right to know the negetive side of every issue. At present the Criticism content of "Kant Immanuel" page is blank (with links to few names) but no content. Being a Philosophy Student, I know the importance of ideas (of their constructive as well as destructive power). A Philosophical construct containing the views of those who do not agree with them is very crucial. All the content which I had uploaded (unfortunately removed) had credible sources as references. Kindly let me know your concerns regarding myself adding criticism content to the page, so that I can address them objectively and help build a consensus. Arjun1491 (talk) 18:46, 1 July 2015 (UTC)


I am new to wikipedia as an Editor, hence I was not able to find the chat section in the article that you mentioned. And yes that content which I posted was a copy paste from the Internet, of which I have given the exact source in the reference section. The philosopher who had criticised Kant Immanuel is unfortunately no more. But her writings are immortal, hence I want to add her point of view about Kant in the Criticism section. Since she is no more, she cant possibly add it herself, hence I have done the job by giving the reference. Is this considered a violation of the copy rights ? The claim of Authorship of another's ideas amounts to copy right violation, but upholding the Authenticity of an idea with giving the correct reference does not violate copy rights. Arjun1491 (talk) 19:07, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

You can not copy paste content here - see WP:COPYRIGHT - Govindaharihari (talk) Can I type the same content myself without copy paste ? Arjun1491 (talk) 19:16, 1 July 2015 (UTC)


Early work[edit] According to Lord Kelvin:

"Kant pointed out in the middle of last century, what had not previously been discovered by mathematicians or physical astronomers, that the frictional resistance against tidal currents on the earth's surface must cause a diminution of the earth's rotational speed. This immense discovery in Natural Philosophy seems to have attracted little attention—indeed to have passed quite unnoticed—among mathematicians, and astronomers, and naturalists, until about 1840, when the doctrine of energy began to be taken to heart."

—Lord Kelvin, physicist, 1897


The above passage is the part of Kant Immanuel wiki page. The content is of " Lord Kelvin, physicist, 1897, but added by some editor. Similarly can you kindly let me know how can I add views of other people ? Arjun1491 (talk) 19:24, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Small quotes are ok - your massive quote is not. Govindaharihari (talk) 19:25, 1 July 2015 (UTC) Its fine with me then, I will be able to add small quotes similar to the above one right ? Arjun1491 (talk) 19:28, 1 July 2015 (UTC)


I will be considering your reply as "Yes" and move on to add the content in the Criticism section of "Kant Immanuel" page ( Yes, it will be small quotes. Not massive one as you have indicated me as your reason for removal.) Kindly let me know if you have any other concerns, so that we can speak about it and sort out the issue. Thank you. Arjun1491 (talk) 19:40, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Arjun1491 (talk) 15:39, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Content addition for Criticism section :[edit]

Proposal, abandoned by proposer. Closed
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

I intend to add the following content in the criticism section. If any one has any issues with the content kindly let me know so that we can discuss and sort out the issue.


Ayn Rand criticised Kant's philosophy by opining "As to Kant’s version of morality, it was appropriate to the kind of zombies that would inhabit that kind of [Kantian] universe: it consisted of total, abject selflessness. An action is moral, said Kant, only if one has no desire to perform it, but performs it out of a sense of duty and derives no benefit from it of any sort, neither material nor spiritual; a benefit destroys the moral value of an action. (Thus, if one has no desire to be evil, one cannot be good; if one has, one can.) Those who accept any part of Kant’s philosophy—metaphysical, epistemological or moral—deserve it." Arjun1491 (talk) 16:31, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Kant did not say what Rand alleges him to have said. This is Kant's categorical imperative (not the exact quote), "Act in such a way that each act of yours can be turned into a universal law." It is acting according to a principle which makes an act ethical. Benefit is a word with a long history in moral philosophy, wanting to be good and being good because of one's actions does not constitute "benefit." According to categorical imperative if one is good because being good is one's principle (and not something that one is deriving benefit from in terms of, say, electoral popularity, good press etc) then one's actions are ethical. Only a person with no understanding of Kant could have said what Rand has said and ignorant and opinionated rubbish like this is not called criticism. -Mohanbhan (talk) 17:18, 1 August 2015 (UTC)


I am a philosophy student and I know what is what, and do not just upload rubbish as you have mentioned. I will give an overview of Kant's philosophy and state why the content which I added is true to each and every word of it.

Metaphysics and Epistemolology of Kant's philosophy :-

The man who closed the door of philosophy to reason, was Immanuel Kant. Kant’s expressly stated purpose was to save the morality of self-abnegation and self-sacrifice. He knew that it could not survive without a mystic base—and what it had to be saved from was reason.

Attila’s share of Kant’s universe includes this earth, physical reality, man’s senses, perceptions, reason and science, all of it labeled the “phenomenal” world. The Witch Doctor’s share is another, “higher,” reality, labeled the “noumenal” world, and a special manifestation, labeled the “categorical imperative,” which dictates to man the rules of morality and which makes itself known by means of a feeling, as a special sense of duty.

The “phenomenal” world, said Kant, is not real: reality, as perceived by man’s mind, is a distortion. The distorting mechanism is man’s conceptual faculty: man’s basic concepts (such as time, space, existence) are not derived from experience or reality, but come from an automatic system of filters in his consciousness (labeled “categories” and “forms of perception”) which impose their own design on his perception of the external world and make him incapable of perceiving it in any manner other than the one in which he does perceive it. This proves, said Kant, that man’s concepts are only a delusion, but a collective delusion which no one has the power to escape. Thus reason and science are “limited,” said Kant; they are valid only so long as they deal with this world, with a permanent, pre-determined collective delusion (and thus the criterion of reason’s validity was switched from the objective to the collective), but they are impotent to deal with the fundamental, metaphysical issues of existence, which belong to the “noumenal” world. The “noumenal” world is unknowable; it is the world of “real” reality, “superior” truth and “things in themselves” or “things as they are”—which means: things as they are not perceived by man.

Even apart from the fact that Kant’s theory of the “categories” as the source of man’s concepts was a preposterous invention, his argument amounted to a negation, not only of man’s consciousness, but of any consciousness, of consciousness as such. His argument, in essence, ran as follows: man is limited to a consciousness of a specific nature, which perceives by specific means and no others, therefore, his consciousness is not valid; man is blind, because he has eyes—deaf, because he has ears—deluded, because he has a mind—and the things he perceives do not exist, because he perceives them.

It's implications on Ethics of Kant's system:-

The arch-advocate of “duty” is Immanuel Kant; he went so much farther than other theorists that they seem innocently benevolent by comparison. “Duty,” he holds, is the only standard of virtue; but virtue is not its own reward: if a reward is involved, it is no longer virtue. The only moral motivation, he holds, is devotion to duty for duty’s sake; only an action motivated exclusively by such devotion is a moral action (i.e., an action performed without any concern for “inclination” [desire] or self-interest).

“It is a duty to preserve one’s life, and moreover everyone has a direct inclination to do so. But for that reason the often anxious care which most men take of it has no intrinsic worth, and the maxim of doing so has no moral import. They preserve their lives according to duty, but not from duty. But if adversities and hopeless sorrow completely take away the relish for life, if an unfortunate man, strong in soul, is indignant rather than despondent or dejected over his fate and wishes for death, and yet preserves his life without loving it and from neither inclination nor fear but from duty—then his maxim has a moral import” Arjun1491 (talk) 17:35, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

"His argument, in essence, ran as follows: man is limited to a consciousness of a specific nature, which perceives by specific means and no others, therefore, his consciousness is not valid; man is blind, because he has eyes—deaf, because he has ears—deluded, because he has a mind—and the things he perceives do not exist, because he perceives them." I hardly use the word "rubbish" on wikipedia but what is this if not rubbish? You cannot do a commonsensical evaluation of philosophy as if you are writing an article in a woman's magazine. Philosophy is that which questions the presuppositions of common sense; common sense naive realism (which you assume is the reality) is not something that can be used to judge or evaluate a philosophy. Yes, man is blind to certain things in spite of his eyes and deaf to certain sounds in spite of his ears -- you do not even need philosophy to say these things, the perceptual abilities of our sense organs are limited, this is an established scientific fact. Anyway there is nothing to argue here; wikipedia is not the place for original research. If you have secondary WP:RS which corroborate Rand's statements you can add them to the article, but since Rand is not a philosopher and no journal would ever quote her it is unlikely that you are going to find any secondary reliable sources. And you cannot cite her book as it is a primary source. -Mohanbhan (talk) 18:07, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

I can only laugh at it when you say Ms.Rand is not a philosopher. You must do your research on the subject of philosophy. And just piece by piece analysis of a philosophy is not enough to judge a philosophy. Philosophy has various branches such as Metaphysics , Epistemology, Ethics, Politics and Esthetics. I do not think you have complete understanding of Kant, and it is very inappropriate to say Ayn Rand is not a philosopher. I too do not intend to express here complete philosophy of Kant or Ayn Rand, which takes volumes of space and enormous time. I do not intend to debate about whose philosophy is correct. I can question you about the philosophy of Kant and Ayn Rand to get to know the extent of your knowledge on the subject. In reverse if you ask any part of philosophy of Kant or Ayn Rand I will let you know complete details of it.

However the issue here is the reason for your rejection of Ayn Rand's criticism of Kant. And when I debate with you, I want "your" opinion on it. If you say others say so , then you must let those "Others" debate with me instead of you. Let me know to what extent you understand Ayn Rand to say that she is not a philosopher and I request your overview of Kant's philosophy and why you want to shield it from any criticism.

Every new idea (big or small , true or false) should withstand criticism. If anyone runs away and requires protection from any kind of criticism, it shows the weakness and inferiority of that person. Arjun1491 (talk) 18:49, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

You are new to wikipedia, so first read WP:UNDUE, WP:VER, WP:RS and WP:NOR. Your addition to the criticism section will not be accepted if it is not supported with citations from reliable secondary sources. -Mohanbhan (talk) 19:07, 1 August 2015 (UTC)


Ok, so you don't want a philosophical debate. Fine, here are the citations from a reliable secondary source to support Ayn Rand's criticism of Kant. It is from "Ominous Parallels" by Leonard Peikoff which satisfies the rule requirements of WP:UNDUE, WP:VER, WP:RS and WP:NOR

"Kant is the first philosopher of self-sacrifice to advance this ethics as a matter of philosophic principle, explicit, self-conscious, uncompromised—essentially uncontradicted by any remnants of the Greek, pro-self viewpoint.

Thus, although he believed that the dutiful man would be rewarded with happiness after death (and that this is proper), Kant holds that the man who is motivated by such a consideration is non moral (since he is still acting from inclination, albeit a supernaturally oriented one). Nor will Kant permit the dutiful man to be motivated even by the desire to feel a sense of moral self-approval.

The main line of pre-Kantian moralists had urged man to perform certain actions in order to reach a goal of some kind. They had urged man to love the object which is the good (however it was conceived) and strive to gain it, even if most transferred the quest to the next life. They had asked man to practice a code of virtues as a means to the attainment of values. Kant dissociates virtue from the pursuit of any goal. He dissociates it from man’s love of or even interest in any object. Which means: he dissociates morality from values, any values, values as such." [1]

It is not inner peace that Kant holds out to man, not otherworldly serenity or ethereal tranquillity, but war, a bloody, unremitting war against passionate, indomitable temptation. It is the lot of the moral man to struggle against undutiful feelings inherent in his nature, and the more intensely he feels and the more desperately he struggles, the greater his claim to virtue. It is the lot of the moral man to burn with desire and then, on principle—the principle of duty—to thwart it. The hallmark of the moral man is to suffer. [2]

If men lived the sort of life Kant demands, who or what would gain from it? Nothing and no one. The concept of “gain” has been expunged from morality. For Kant, it is the dutiful sacrifice as such that constitutes a man’s claim to virtue; the welfare of any recipient is morally incidental. Virtue, for Kant, is not the service of an interest—neither of the self nor of God nor of others. (A man can claim moral credit for service to others in this view, not because they benefit, but only insofar as he loses.)

Here is the essence and climax of the ethics of self-sacrifice, finally, after two thousand years, come to full, philosophic expression in the Western world: your interests—of whatever kind, including the interest in being moral—are a mark of moral imperfection because they are interests. Your desires, regardless of their content, deserve no respect because they are desires. Do your duty, which is yours because you have desires, and which is sublime because, unadulterated by the stigma of any gain, it shines forth unsullied, in loss, pain, conflict, torture. Sacrifice the thing you want, without beneficiaries, supernatural or social; sacrifice your values, your self-interest, your happiness, your self, because they are your values, your self-interest, your happiness, your self; sacrifice them to morality, i.e., to the noumenal dimension, i.e., to nothing knowable or conceivable to man, i.e., as far as man living on this earth is concerned, to nothing.

The moral commandment is: thou shalt sacrifice, sacrifice everything, sacrifice for the sake of sacrifice, as an end in itself. [3]

References

  1. ^ Leonard Peikoff, The Ominous Parallels, 78
  2. ^ Leonard Peikoff, The Ominous Parallels, 82
  3. ^ Leonard Peikoff, The Ominous Parallels, 83

Arjun1491 (talk) 19:30, 1 August 2015 (UTC) ──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Rand is a well-known figure, but she is definitely not an important or prominent critic of Kant. There is no reason the article should mention her views, per WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 23:40, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

I request you to justify your statement on what grounds you allege that Ms.Rand is not a prominent critic of Kant. What does "prominent critic" means according to you ? I have studied philosophy for years together and I have added the critic section after quite a thought, and it was not made for any kind of reckless fun. I am a responsible person who knows in and out of both Kant's and Ayn Rand's philosophy. You must leave the matter to the subject experts like me instead of placing hurdles like this. You have said that it should not be added as per WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE This is a very serious allegation which requires extensive proof to justify your claims. What makes you think that it is "Undue" and "Fringe" ? I am open for debate, please make an academic debate to justify your claims and it must be your own , authentic and "Personal" views on the subject. And as I have mentioned previously, if you say "others" says so, then I am open for debate with those "others" & you must leave and make room for the the subject experts to handle this. I am looking forward for an intensive philosophical argument from you. Claims without proof are not acceptable. Arjun1491 (talk) 06:01, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Leonard Peikoff's book is not a reliable secondary source. See WP:SCHOLARSHIP -Mohanbhan (talk) 08:08, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

` WP:SCHOLARSHIP in its first point says "Articles should rely on secondary sources whenever possible". It does not mean a secondary source is mandatory for each and every article, rather "Whenever possible". In its second point it is said that "Material such as an article, book, monograph, or research paper that has been vetted by the scholarly community is regarded as reliable, where the material has been published in reputable peer-reviewed sources or by well-regarded academic presses." Leonard Peikoff's book clearly falls into this category and can be considered as a reliable secondary source. Arjun1491 (talk) 08:22, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Surname Reuter so he has a jewish mother?[edit]

Is his mother jewish? The surname Reuter is a common jewish surname? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.79.184.77 (talk) 19:06, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

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Rector[edit]

Truly beautiful and well constructed article, but no mention he worked as a Rector in 1786 [[1]]. scope_creep (talk) 02:11, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Anthropology Section[edit]

It seems strange to me that this section is so far down Kant's page if he spent 25 years lecturing on said subject. What are possible ways to expand this facet of his contributions to academia as well as highlight it earlier in the piece? The philosophy aspects seem over represented given the vastness of the scope of his work. Maclark19 (talk) 05:52, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Image[edit]

Actually, that's Friedrich Heinrich Jacobi (1743-1819), not Kant. I've since corrected it.

Agent Cooper (talk) 17:32, 26 May 2017 (UTC)


Also, would people stop reverting it? The name of the image file isn't even "Kant Portrait" anymore.

Agent Cooper (talk) 17:53, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

The Scottish ancestor: Thomas Philipp[edit]

From the genealogical point of view, the ethnic Scotsman Thomas Philipp has been proven as the Scottish ancestor whose father had acquired the right to be a Grand Burgher (Großes Bürgerrecht https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Burgher ) of the City of Danzig on March 21st, 1621 and who died early in 1626. This Thomas Philipp married the daughter of a Hans/Johannes Cant from Danzig. Another hint to the Scottish ancestry is the fact that Immanuel Kant's family and ancestors were Calvinists. Source: Ostpreußisches Geschlechterbuch, Band 1 http://opac.regesta-imperii.de/lang_de/kurztitelsuche_r.php?kurztitel=Ostpreu%C3%9Fisches+Geschlechterbuch — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:8C:4C4E:F700:4D6B:CB93:1EF4:3B54 (talk) 14:22, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

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Immanuel Kant[edit]

... is who? We trust in God? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.17.12.30 (talk) 16:54, 13 November 2017 (UTC)