Talk:Immigration and crime in Germany

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Donald Trump[edit]

US president Donald Trump is not an expert on crime in Germany, therefore his comments are irrelevant. Demonstrate relevance before re-adding. AadaamS (talk) 06:17, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

Snooganssnoogans you have not discussed it, you have reverted without explaining how Donald Trump is an expert on Germany, immigration to Germany or crime in Germany or any European country. Trump's comments are WP:IRRELEVANT because they are only WP:RUMORs spready by Trump. As such they belong in the Donald Trump article. Politifact may be a debunking website, but ENWP isn't. AadaamS (talk) 20:48, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
For the millionth time, the PolitiFact source is covering the relationship between immigration and crime in Germany, and citing expert assessments and research in assessing the immigration-crime relationship. It's 100% on point. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 20:52, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Not an explanation on why inexpert Donald Trump must be mentioned in this and every article. His comments are WP:RUMOR. ENWP is not a debunking site. We should prioritise German statistics and conclusions from the Bundeskriminalamt (BKA) or Landeskriminalamt (LKA), not political posturing. Political posturing comes quite far down the priority list. AadaamS (talk) 21:08, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

───────────────────────── The Trump section has been moved to "Political impact", where it belongs. Discuss before reverting. AadaamS (talk) 05:47, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

I agree with AadaamS who said: "US president Donald Trump is not an expert on crime in Germany, therefore his comments are irrelevant." Peter K Burian (talk) 15:37, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
  • WP:OFFTOPIC - reads like message is Trump was right (!?) rather than a name-free conveying data and logic of positions. I would not use the cite though due to distrust any election period content and that the remark by Trump was not significant detail. It seems just a brief line reflecting DIVERSE, a common impression and concern similar to UK fears not something specific, and said/opposed as part of getting votes rather than facts. Might do better to look for polls of public beliefs on this, or quote the local officials. Even UK rhetoric would be more closely related than US quotes. Markbassett (talk) 23:56, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Donald Trump - third opinion[edit]

A third opinion would be useful on this edit

  • Using chronologcy in this article
  • bumping Donald Trump to top of the article
  • reordering to non-chronological order
  • unexplained deletion of sourced material

Also see above discussion #Donald Trump. AadaamS (talk) 13:27, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

I fully support the position of User:AadaamS. Not only is Trump of low significance for the article - and can be mentioned at the end -, there seem to be users here who don't want to accept well sourced material for whatever reasons.--Greywin (talk) 10:44, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
Generally speaking, I prefer Snooganssnoogans' version. I think they're correct in that the best sources are ones that provide an overall look at the relationship between immigration and crime; I'm extremely skeptical of the alternative structure, since it feels like it's throwing disconnected factoids from unrelated studies together in order to try and WP:SYNTH up a conclusion, which is absolutely the wrong approach to take when we have so many sources flatly stating that there is no correlation between immigration and crime. AadaamS' version just throws a bunch of random, disconnected individual studies and numbers at the reader (often with contradictory or potentially-confusing results), without using secondary sources for interpretation or summary. I'd also point out that WP:RS states that Isolated studies are usually considered tentative and may change in the light of further academic research. If the isolated study is a primary source, it should generally not be used if there are secondary sources that cover the same content. The sentence on Donald Trump could possibly be omitted or moved around, but the basic conclusion that the fear of refugee-related crime is groundless is well-cited and belongs both in the lead and at the top of the section. But in general, we should be focusing on secondary sources that provide summaries and interpretation rather than trying to construct our own argument using primary sources and individual studies. --Aquillion (talk) 04:34, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
"that the fear of refugee-related crime is groundless...". Are you aware of this study? [1] "For years, criminal acts of violence in Lower Saxony had declined, but in 2014 and 2015 the police registered a considerable increase. The number of such offenses grew by more than 10 percent, including robbery, serious assault, homicides or sexual offenses. And for the largest part, namely 92%, criminals are responsible for this increase, which are refugees - that is clear from the perspective of the authors and they prove this in their report. Thus, the number of suspected refugees in Lower Saxony increased by 241 percent between 2014 and 2016." Now you might want to add, that the number of refugees increased, that there are many young men and so on. But this doesn't matter for the local population and all the victims of the crimes, whose fears in fact are justified on the base of scientific facts. And it shows that your statement is untenable. At least we agree on the Trump issue, so this should be moved soon.--Greywin (talk) 18:44, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
I have another one for you: [2] This shows that the share of unreported sexual crimes is 94 percent, also proved by a study, as the linked n-tv article says. Now look at the graph of sexual crimes in Germany. It rose from roughly 46.000 to 56.000 within two years, 10.000 more. If these 10.000 are committed by 92 percent by refugees (remember Lower Saxony above), and if these 10.000 (and the 56.000 sexual crimes in general) are only 6 percent of all the sexual crimes committed (the rest unreported...), this leads to much higher numbers than reported and registered by the authorities. And please compare also the rise of murder and bodily injury within the last two years. There is a demonstrable rise of serious crimes connected with the European migrant crisis.--Greywin (talk) 19:19, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Prefer Aadaaams version generally, for BESTSOURCES highlighting scholarly and German ministers rather than pop media sources, but would like to see some inclusion of popular opinions and recent too — so long as US-centric or Trumpisms are not included. No mention of Trump at all, no mention of US view at all, get some German or at least European input for the German topic. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 00:15, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Donald Trump - consensus[edit]

So .. it seems that editors Peter K Burian, Greywin and Markbassett agree that the Trumpisms should be moved to a less prominent place in the article. Or deleted outright? AadaamS (talk) 06:22, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

  • Seems OK to delete him and more generally exclude American opinions. Use WP:BESTSOURCES, European and German, scholars and official studies. There's no significant information from the eight words of campaign interview posturing, no enduring meaning, and no effect on the topic. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 00:48, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
  • The attribution of a statement to Trump has been removed. There's zero justification for removing PolitiFact's assessment of the relationship between immigration and crime in Germany. If you want to argue that PolitiFact is not a reliable source, go to the reliable sources noticeboard where you'll inevitably lose. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 17:52, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Politifact may be WP:RS on American politics, but that isn't the subject of this article. Nobody has to go to the "reliable sources noticeboard" because Politifact do not even claim to be experts on crime in Germany, only Snoogan does. Intead Politifact writes PolitiFact is a nonpartisan fact-checking website to sort out the truth in American politics. PolitiFact was created by the Tampa Bay Times, a Florida newspaper, in 2007. In 2018, PolitiFact was acquired by the Poynter Institute, a nonprofit school for journalists. The staff does does not have a single expert on Germany and no criminologist. The remaining text sourced to Politifact is problematic because WP:BESTSOURCES the German overnment institution Bundeskriminalamt is simply a stronger source on crime in Germany and clearly explain that some groups are overrepresented in crime, therefore the sourced statement is contradicted by a stronger source. Go ahead, read the "About us" page on Politifact, they don't claim anywhere that they are experts on crime in Germany. AadaamS (talk) 19:57, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
  • The "about us" pages for the New York Times or the Washington Post don't describe them as experts on anything in particular. Doesn't change the fact that they are RS. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 00:15, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
  • I think there is a rough consensus with good arguments here, even more sceptical users admit that Trump is not relevant for the article's subject. --Greywin (talk) 18:33, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Federal Criminal Police Office report on immigration[edit]

If there is "no connection between immigration and crime" as some editors/academics claim above, it is disproven by the fact that Federal Criminal Police Office (Germany) publishes reports on exactly this. In the interest of using the best sources available, here is the link to the 2017 report - click the PDF. It contains several figures and graphs. Here are links to the 2015 and 2016 reports. AadaamS (talk) 06:29, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Knife Attacks[edit]

I added context on the knife attacks section. There is far more correlation around the domestic nature of most of the murders than any other element, so I'm including it. It was reverted, and the reverted version included an opening line that said "Apart from islamism", which is bizarre, because it's not mentioned elsewhere. I'm undoing the reversion because it makes the article poorer and less informative and asking the reverter to post and explain why they want it reverted back here. Thank you. Berrocca Addict (talk) 14:01, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

It's unreasonable to explain what happened in each prominent migrant crime. This page should not be a recitation of individual crimes committed by migrants, just as we shouldn't recite individual migrants who did not commit crimes. It's fair to mention migrant crimes if they affected public discourse on or had broader implications for the relationship between immigration and crime in Germany. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 14:22, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
You are reverting to a list of individual crimes, without context. Either add a statistical breakdown of the crimes, or include the context of the crimes you are referring to. Also, mentioning islamism, randomly, makes no sense. And removing the POV of the Police Union makes no sense. Stop reverting to a worse version. Berrocca Addict (talk) 14:28, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Is germany riddled with crime?[edit]

Per this edit, some fact checker in the US is constantly inserted near the top of the article. Say for instance, Donald Duck screamed "All of Canada is covered by tropical forest!", would the Geography of Canada article then claim "All of Canada is not covered by tropical forest". The reader is left knowing nothing about Canada. That's how that edit is unencyclopedic. AadaamS (talk) 12:48, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

  • I see that edit as an attempt to instil the Wikipedia:NPOV principles into this article - which seriously needs it. Deb (talk) 08:04, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
It's a very poor attempt, which should be ended soon, just to instil the Wikipedia:NPOV principles into this article. The discussion result above was already largely in favor of doing so.--Greywin (talk) 18:46, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

Tagging for POV[edit]

The new "historical background" paragraph describes the history before 1990 as if the link between immigration and crime was only the crimes of the Germans; there were excessive crimes of Germans (not only, but especially) in the colonial and Nazi eras, but there were also problems with immigrants over the centuries mentioned here; this has to be included to grant neutrality. In the paragraph "Criminal activity by immigrants since the 1990s", the overall rise of crime by immigrants since the 1980/90s (Yugoslavia/Eastern Europe) is missing completely. This can't exculpate crimes against immigrants, but it is needed to understand the background of the some of the ressentment.--Greywin (talk) 19:56, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

And I want to question, if the colonial history belongs here; is this really "immigration and crime in Germany", or is this just needed here to show that all Germans have always been evil? ;) How is this connected to "immigration and crime in Germany" or can the connection be improved?--Greywin (talk) 20:07, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
No one will have any objection at all to you adding genuine, sourced evidence of crimes committed by immigrants before 1990, but do bear in mind the comments already made at Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#Immigration_and_crime_in_Germany, where it has even been suggested that the whole article should be deleted.Deb (talk) 22:26, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
I asked a question about the connection of the history of the colonies. I can not see any connection to the page title (immigration and crime in Germany!) in the presented material.--Greywin (talk) 22:55, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
The clue is in then titles, it is not "crimes by Germans against none Germans", and no two wrongs do not make a right. Just because I rape your wife in no way justifies me raping yours. But is RS make the claim we could certainly mention that RS think this is a justification.Slatersteven (talk) 08:33, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
I just added that and you undid it. Please read before you do a blanket deletion. Deb (talk) 13:58, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
I did read it, and I do not agree it is on topic.Slatersteven (talk) 14:04, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
So how do you propose we bring this article onto a level playing field where it is not just a long list of crimes committed by immigrants in the last five years? Deb (talk) 14:06, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
By finding sources that discus Crimes committed by (and against) immigrant (that is immigrants to Germany, not slaves and not places outside Germany) over 5 years old. You do not create a level playing field by talking about maters unrelated to immigrants in Germany. This should not be a fork of Racism in Germany or antisemitism in Germany.Slatersteven (talk) 14:11, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
"This" article should not exist at all; it's totally unnecessary, but while it's here it needs to be freed from the implication that immigration and crime are inextricably linked and that all crimes are committed by immigrants. Forced labourers brought into the country as immigrants are still immigrants. Fifth and sixth (etc...) generation immigrants are still considered immigrants by many of the German population. I took great pains to ensure that everything I included was relevant and your opinion that it is "unrelated" does not exactly constitute consensus. Can you not see that even the order of the paragraphs and the wording of the headers is designed to make the article biased towards a certain conclusion? Deb (talk) 14:17, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
Mush of this is unrelated to the issue of what you added, now if you want to AFD go ahead. The forced laborers were not immigrants (immigrant ˈɪmɪɡr(ə)nt/Submit noun a person who comes to live permanently in a foreign country) they were transitory slaves. And read wp:consensus, yes my opinion does not exactly constitute consensus, what does is agreement, and you do not have it. As to structure, then restructure it, but do not add material without consensus once it has been challenged.Slatersteven (talk) 14:23, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
So, eh, ahem, if that's what an "immigrant" is, how are they "non-German"? And do you think this is in any way unproblematic? BTW this "don't add if challenged" does not apply here. Drmies (talk) 14:33, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
This article is so obviously slanted it's disgusting. Might as well call it "Wikipedia giving you reasons to vote AfD". If these editors here, some of whom seem to just say "ah well you take care of the earlier stuff, I'll do the anti-Muslim content", would spend as much time and attention on Crime in Germany we might have a decent article there. And the fact is, of course, that "this is about immigrants, not jews" completely misses the point, as if there was some unified German thing called "Germany" before the Gastarbeiter of the 1950s. Saying "the jews were not immigrants" misses the point completely--at some point of course they were immigrants, just like everyone in Germany--all you have to do is go back a few more centuries, to the Migration Period. But the Jews were, of course, always especially singled out as aliens, so there is no reason to remove that, since it's as relevant as Ganz unten. You can't have it both ways, and you can't define "Immigration" as something new and simple. The days of the MGH are over. (And if you don't know the italicized German terms, maybe you need to read up before you edit this.) Drmies (talk) 14:29, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
Yes we are all immigrants (well descended from them) thus we should also talk about crimes committed against non Jewish Germans (after all they are all descended from immigrants?). If RS make a link so can, do they? are any of the RS making a direct link between Germans traditional racism and its modern attitude towards immigrants? The point is that RS have to make a clear connection, not us.Slatersteven (talk) 14:34, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
With the greatest of respect, and while I accept that synthesis is a danger when trying to summarise RS, you seem to be saying that it's okay to change the article as long as I change it to something you agree with. I don't call that consensus. I don't think either of your statements about the forced laborers is true. Another definition of "immigrant" is "a person who has come into a foreign country in order to live there". And after the war, many of the forced labourers weren't allowed to go home. Deb (talk) 14:36, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
No I am saying you can change it to something that RS agree with. And your definition of immigrant equally does not apply to people forced to comer to a country as mine, they did not go to a country, they were taken there (and the fact some were not allowed home (source?) is also irrelevant, they did not choose to live there).Slatersteven (talk) 14:40, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
There is still not a single connection of the colonial history to "immigration and crime in Germany", so I removed this material again. Please refrain from re-adding.--Greywin (talk) 15:40, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
In general, only finding sources and adding material improves the article. Let's take a collaborative approach. While sections of the article may be unbalanced, it is only a question of finding more material to balance it out. It's a question of WP:SOFIXIT rather than starting arguments on the talk page. AadaamS (talk) 19:05, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
And the first thing is if a an RS does not make a link neither do we, no matter how obvious it may be (it is so obvious there must be sources making the link, so I do not get why they are not doing that).Slatersteven (talk) 10:00, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

AFD[edit]

Is in properly, formed, and thus is not going go anywhere. Make the case here as ti why we should delete and someone might be able to lunch it properly.Slatersteven (talk) 15:47, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

Sorry? I don't understand what you mean. Deb (talk) 16:04, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
You had not completeed the proccess, which noptmalyy is done in one go. You have now completed it, though I would rather you had run it by us first. I am not sure the tone of the AFD is going to win you many allies.Slatersteven (talk) 16:06, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
No, it can't be done in one go because there are steps that have to be followed and I have followed them. You have been here long enough to understand how it works and you should know better than to try to jump in within seconds of the AfD notice appearing - assuming that's what you did. Deb (talk) 16:08, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
This nomination is a again a clear revenge action by you after your non-connected material wasn't accepted.--Greywin (talk) 16:15, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
Fundamentally I think the AFD launched by editor Deb to be the right thing to do. AadaamS (talk) 07:10, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

By region[edit]

Not sure why we need this, removing it might help balance the article.Slatersteven (talk) 09:21, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

The Nazi period[edit]

The paragraph spreads Nazi propaganda. The crimes, really.Xx236 (talk) 08:05, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean.Slatersteven (talk) 10:01, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Concur that this material shod be deleted. It is about the forced labour of the untermenschen, that is, the non German peoples (often Slavic,) defined by Nazi "race science" as genetically inferior were dragooned into forced labour in conditions (forced labour camps) that killed many of them (part of the Nazi program was to work Slavic and other non-"Aryan" peoples to death and settle their homelands with Germans.)E.M.Gregory (talk) 10:21, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
Ahhh then I agree, they are not (by most definitions (all?)) immigrants but slaves.Slatersteven (talk) 10:25, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
OFF-TOPIC: The monstrous plan EMG mentions is the Generalplan Ost for all of Eastern Europe. Basically, the Kaiserreich had occupied large parts of Eastern Europe and this was formalized in the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk in 1918. Then Hitler wanted to do the whole thing again and thus Operation Barbarossa of WW2. So German forces indiscrimatedly murdered millions of civilians on the Eastern Front as this was the fundamental aim of the war. AadaamS (talk) 07:39, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

Honor killing#Germany should be described[edit]

Much better de:Ehrenmord#Ehrenmorde in Deutschland. Xx236 (talk) 12:13, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

far too long, maybe a brief mention.Slatersteven (talk) 12:22, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
Crimes specific to immigrants should be listed.
honor killing
Female genital mutilation [3] Xx236 (talk) 12:27, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
Did not say it should not be mentioned (but is that even true? is it only carried out by immigrants and not people born German?, do you have a source?).Slatersteven (talk) 12:32, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
It's a part of some African or Asian cultures, like honor killings. The operation is performed outside Germany, Vacation circumcision. Xx236 (talk) 12:37, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
So its not then carried out IN Germany?Slatersteven (talk) 12:46, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
de:Weibliche Genitalverstümmelung#Rechtliche Beurteilung The crime is punished in Germany even if it's committed outside, since 2015.Xx236 (talk) 12:55, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
It is still not being committed in Germany.Slatersteven (talk) 13:01, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
Part of the conspiracy is committed in Germany.
If white women were operated abroad, it would be a crime, so the same is true for any woman.Xx236 (talk) 13:09, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
So?.Slatersteven (talk) 13:30, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

───────────────────────── BKA has written a report on honor killings (Ehrenmorde) see this link. AadaamS (talk) 21:14, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

The page describes mostly crimes of immigrants against Germans but ignores crimes against other immigrants. It's biased.Xx236 (talk) 06:21, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
Sending a girl from Germany to Africa or Asia to mutilate her there is a crime in Germany. Xx236 (talk) 06:22, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
But the crime was not committed in Germany. The lead (and maybe the title) needs to be changed if you want to include crimes committed by immigrants that are against German law.Slatersteven (talk) 13:00, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
I expanded the paragraph from Die Welt source. According to the source FGM is partly done in Germany by foreign doctors. But also the planning of the crimes is done in Germany. So the paragraph has to stay. I'm not sure if it should be mentioned as crime by immigrants or against, because it is both - maybe a separate paragraph inbetween?--Greywin (talk) 15:41, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
The material about it happening in Germany is all we should have.Slatersteven (talk) 15:43, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
A bit of context is usually a good thing. Greywin is right that FGM where immigrants are both the perpetrators and the victims and so fits into both categories. AadaamS (talk) 17:50, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

The subject[edit]

The page informs about immigration from outside of the EU. Crimes committed by EU citizens should be mentioned.Xx236 (talk) 12:17, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Agree, they are immigrants.Slatersteven (talk) 12:19, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
Yes they should. AadaamS (talk) 18:09, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
Crime in Germany#Organized crime describes criminal organisations of immigrants. Xx236 (talk) 06:27, 17 October 2018 (UTC)