Talk:Index of Vatican City-related articles

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

Far too wide-ranging[edit]

This index includes topics not really related to Vatican City, though perhaps related in some way to the Holy See. That is like including in an index of topics related to New York City topics that have some relation to the United Nations. Considering as Vatican City-related Basilica di Santa Maria Maggiore, Lateran Basilica, Lateran Obelisk, Lateran Palace, Palace of the Holy Office, Quirinal Palace and the like is similar to considering as New York-related Peace Palace, Palais des Nations, Vienna International Centre and the like. So also considering as Vatican City-related College of Cardinals, Holy See Press Office (not situated in Vatican City), Roman Curia (nearly all of which is situated outside Vatican City) is like considering as New York City-related articles on the various United Nations organs and agencies such as the Security Council, FAO and UNESCO. Roman Catholic Church obviously is New York City-related too as is History of the Catholic Church since 1962. History of the Papacy, the various articles on the Holy See and its relations and legal status, and several of those whose titles begin with "Papal" or "Pope" are in a similar situation. Acta Apostolicae Sedis and L'Osservatore Romano are Vatican City-related only in the way that any specialized publication that happens to be sited in New York is New York-related. The United Nations Peacekeeping Force in Cyprus is decidedly more closely related with New York City than Clericus Cup is with Vatican City, since not only are the matches not played in Vatican City, but the organization has nothing to do even with the Holy See. These are perhaps the most glaring examples, but not the only ones. Esoglou (talk) 14:25, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

In rereading some of the pages you are right, but not all of them. The reach of the institutions and people overlapping in Vatican City and the Holy See is debatable, as is their connection to each other in such a way as Vatican City does not exist unless it was for those activities. Time is limited tonight, but I'll get back to this tomorrow. But Vatican City is first and foremost the housing of the Catholic Church and its people, organiztions, newspapers, etc., much more than your example of New York. The Clericus Cup, yes, that shouldn't be here. The College of Cardinals and the Roman Curia, Vatican City houses the physical plant of much of what they do and organize. It is not just a piece of land, but a concept unique in the world (probably shouldn't have ever been a country, but here we have it), so each point is open to several points of view. And the topic is "Vatican City-related articles" which leaves a little more leeway for inclusion of some of the topics you point out. Randy Kryn 1:50 26 October, 2013 (UTC)
Hi. I've looked at all the pages you mention and have removed three: Clericus Cup, Quirinal Palace, and Lateran Obelisk. The others you point out, with some more solid reason to be here than others, and I'll start with those: Bascilia de Santa etc., please read the third paragraph. Palace of the Holy Office, it's in Vatican City and has a connection to the Vatican. I guess I look at the Papal offices,the Catholic Church's government, and Vatican City as one and the same. It's not a city, like New York City. It's a nation, and is a nation solely and explicitly set up as a nation to be the seat of the Catholic Church. The entire nation, not a portion of it. So listing papal activities - and I'm one of those who really like this new Pope, which is one reason I started working on this Index and going out from there - (and I just remembered, I'll remove Quirinal Palace from the Vatican City template) seems fair. At least maybe keeping the very major ones which point to him as head of state and church from one office. Which is why I think Acta Apostolicae Sedis, the newspaper, should be on the list, please read its last paragraph. And Lateran Basilica, which is run by the Pope and is his official parish - yet the Pope is head of state of a nation, so it seems related it that way. Now for ones I'm on the fence about. Should the two former papal residences be listed? Popes lived in one for a thousand years, and in the other for a long time too. Very historical as related to the Catholic Church, which moved the Pope into the Vatican and finally made that structure into a nation. But also not really connected, so I guess not. I'll get to those later, have to go soon. Vatican City, I used to collect its stamps, some very nice ones, and my Aunt would order me stamps direct from there. Those are at least some thoughts on the reason for myself and others including some of the pages in the Index that you question. It'll be fun to talk these out. And a very welcoming thank you as well, the page needed someone with your eye and knowledge of the subject. Randy Kryn 14:38 26 October 2013 (UTC)
I just left a comment here and didn't put this page on my watchlist. That is why I have only today looked at it again out of curiosity.
"Please read the third paragraph", you say of Saint Mary Major's. The paragraph says the building is dependent on the Holy See with extraterritorial status. In this, it is just like the Apostolic Nunciature in Washington, the office of the Permanent Observer of the Holy See at the United Nations in New York, and more than a hundred other such buildings. But none of them depends on the Governatorate of Vatican City. Except for the Secretariat of State, all the offices of the Roman Curia are situated outside Vatican City. The Palace of the Holy Office is not in Vatican City territory: look at the map that was one of the annexes of the Lateran Treaty. Even the large modern audience hall behind it is only partially in Vatican City State. The Holy Office building has for centuries had the connection it still has today with the Holy See, but with the 1929 treaty it acquired a connection with the state of Vatican City no more than did the Nunciatures in Madrid or Paris or Lisbon, which kept with no alteration whatever their extraterritorial status as dependencies of the Holy See, not of the newly founded Vatican City State. Vatican City State was not set up "to be the seat of the Catholic Church". It was set up as a sovereign independent state for the Pope, to ensure his political independence and freedom. It did not change the Church's status. The Holy See and Vatican City State are not the same thing. What is related to one is not necessarily related to the other. The head of state of England and Australia and Canada is also Supreme Governor of the Church of England, but that is no reason to put articles about Anglican churches and chapels and the Lambeth Conference, and the Church Times, and the sacraments, etc. in an "Index of Buckingham Palace-related articles", nor to put the articles on the Sydney Opera House and the thousands of other landmarks or structures in the Commonwealth in an "Index of Church of England-related articles". Esoglou (talk) 17:50, 8 November 2013 (UTC)