Talk:Indo-Aryan peoples

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Notes[edit]

focus on part two 76. Mandavilli, Sujay Rao Part One http://www.scribd.com/doc/27103044/Sujay-NPAP-Part-One Part Two http://www.scribd.com/doc/27105677/Sujay-Npap-Part-Two Part One http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1324506 Part Two http://ssrn.com/abstract=1541822

Early migrations edits by Pebble101[edit]

Copied from User talk:Kautilya3

Kautilya, I have enough knowledge about this subject, it's important to explain how ANI and ASI came to be as South Asia are product of ANI and ASI admixture which is known as 'Indian cline'.

It's not good to having early 20th century racial-type categorization in topic, it's out-dated. Genetics gives much more detailed understanding of the topic.

Is there any reason it was revered? Today, I added how ASI, Proto East Asia and Andamaese split with the appearance of Y-DNA CF haplogroup and later F haplogroup and it's decedents. M mtdna is oldest Haplogroup in South Asia and related to Andamanese M mtna, as are all M mtdnas in the world. However all Y-DNA AND R U mtdna in South Asia are not found in Andamanese due to their isolation after the split some 50,000 to 40,500 ybp. They are ASI related group through M mtdna.

Here is chart of splitting of Eurasians, I'll try to get this chart in Wikicommons in the future after getting permission from Reich et al but at movement it gives a basic idea on how 'Indian cline' was formed. http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2010/11/reich1.png - The chart is from Reich et al study, Reconstruction of Indian population. Pebble101 (talk)

I understand your concern, i'll be removing ANI and ASI topic from the Indo-Aryan page atm as one can find more detailed information in Genetics and archaeogenetics of South Asia.
I will only add this for now - as it will give basic information about Indo-Aryan people, migration and Indo-Aryan associated haplogroup R1a1
article text

The genetic analysis of two Y chromosome variants, Hgr9 and Hgr3 provides insightful data. Microsatellite variation of Hgr9 among Iranians, Indians and Pakistanis indicate an expansion of populations to around 9000 YBP in Iran and then to 6,000 YBP in India. This migration originated in what was historically termed Elam in south-west Iran to the Indus valley, and may have been associated with the spread of Dravidian speakers from south-west Iran[1][2][3] Subsequently, the Indo-European migration into subcontinent from Sintashta culture about 4,000 ybp.[2][4][5] and the Tibeto-Burmans and Austroasiatics via the Himalayan and north-eastern borders of the subcontinent.[6]

The most frequent mtDNA haplogroups in the Indian subcontinent are M, R and U.[7]

All major Y chromosome DNA haplogroups in the subcontinent are Haplogroup F's descendant haplogroups R (mostly R2a, R2 and R1a1), L, H and J (mostly J2).[8] other minor but notable haplogroups include O3 among Tibeto-Burman speakers, O2a among Austroasiatic speakers, G and T.

Haplogroup R1a1 in particular is associated with Indo-Aryans in South Asia. In South Asia R1a1 has been observed often with high frequency in a number of demographic groups, especially among Indo-Aryans.[9][10] Its parent clade Haplogroup R1a is believed to have its origins in the South Asia or the Eurasian Steppe,[11] whereas its successor clade R1a1 has the highest frequency and time depth in South Asia, making it a possible locus of origin.[12][13][14] However, the uneven distribution of this haplogroup among South Asian castes and tribal populations makes a Central Eurasian origin of this lineage a strong possibility as well.[15][16]

References

  1. ^ Tamil Literature Society (1963), Tamil Culture 10, Academy of Tamil Culture, retrieved 2008-11-25, ... together with the evidence of archaeology would seem to suggest that the original Dravidian-speakers entered India from Iran in the fourth millennium BC ... 
  2. ^ a b Namita Mukherjee, Almut Nebel, Ariella Oppenheim and Partha P. Majumder (December 2001), "High-resolution analysis of Y-chromosomal polymorphisms reveals signatures of population movements from central Asia and West Asia into India" (PDF), Journal of Genetics (Springer India) 80 (3), doi:10.1007/BF02717908, retrieved 2008-11-25, ... More recently, about 15,000-10,000 years before present (ybp), when agriculture developed in the Fertile Crescent region that extends from Israel through northern Syria to western Iran, there was another eastward wave of human migration (Cavalli-Sforza et al., 1994; Renfrew 1987), a part of which also appears to have entered India. This wave has been postulated to have brought the Dravidian languages into India (Renfrew 1987). Subsequently, the Indo-European (Aryan) language family was introduced into India about 4,000 ybp ... 
  3. ^ Dhavendra Kumar (2004), Genetic Disorders of the Indian Subcontinent, Springer, ISBN 1-4020-1215-2, retrieved 2008-11-25, ... The analysis of two Y chromosome variants, Hgr9 and Hgr3 provides interesting data (Quintan-Murci et al., 2001). Microsatellite variation of Hgr9 among Iranians, Pakistanis and Indians indicate an expansion of populations to around 9000 YBP in Iran and then to 6,000 YBP in India. This migration originated in what was historically termed Elam in south-west Iran to the Indus valley, and may have been associated with the spread of Dravidian languages from south-west Iran (Quintan-Murci et al., 2001). ... 
  4. ^ Frank Raymond Allchin and George Erdosy (1995), The Archaeology of Early Historic South Asia: The Emergence of Cities and States, Cambridge University Press, retrieved 2008-11-25, ... There has also been a fairly general agreement that the Proto-Indoaryan speakers at one time lived on the steppes of Central Asia and that at a certain time they moved southwards through Bactria and Afghanistan, and perhaps the Caucasus, into Iran and India-Pakistan (Burrow 1973; Harmatta 1992) ... 
  5. ^ Hermann Kulke, Dietmar Rothermund (1998), High-resolution analysis of Y-chromosomal polymorphisms reveals signatures of population movements from central Asia and West Asia into India, Routledge, ISBN 0-415-15482-0, retrieved 2008-11-25, ... During the last decades intensive archaeological research in Russia and the Central Asian Republics of the former Soviet Union as well as in Pakistan and northern India has considerably enlarged our knowledge about the potential ancestors of the Indo-Aryans and their relationship with cultures in west, central and south Asia. Previous excavations in southern Russia and Central Asia could not confirm that the Eurasian steppes had once been the original home of the speakers of Indo-European language ... 
  6. ^ Richard Cordaux , Gunter Weiss, Nilmani Saha and Mark Stoneking (2004), "The Northeast Indian Passageway: A Barrier or Corridor for Human Migrations?", Molecular Biology and Evolution (Society for Molecular Biology and Evolution), doi:10.1093/molbev/msh151, PMID 15128876, retrieved 2008-11-25, ... Our coalescence analysis suggests that the expansion of Tibeto-Burman speakers to northeast India most likely took place within the past 4,200 years ... 
  7. ^ Y Haplogroups of the World, 2005, McDonald
  8. ^ Y Haplogroups of the World
  9. ^ Sengupta et al. (2005)
  10. ^ Sahoo et al. (2006)
  11. ^ ISOGG 2012 Y-DNA Haplogroup R
  12. ^ Underhill, Peter A; Myres, Natalie M; Rootsi, Siiri; Metspalu, Mait; Zhivotovsky, Lev A; King, Roy J; Lin, Alice A; Chow, Cheryl-Emiliane T; Semino, Ornella; Battaglia, Vincenza; Kutuev, Ildus; Järve, Mari; Chaubey, Gyaneshwer; Ayub, Qasim; Mohyuddin, Aisha; Mehdi, S Qasim; Sengupta, Sanghamitra; Rogaev, Evgeny I; Khusnutdinova, Elza K; Pshenichnov, Andrey; Balanovsky, Oleg; Balanovska, Elena; Jeran, Nina; Augustin, Dubravka Havas; Baldovic, Marian; Herrera, Rene J; Thangaraj, Kumarasamy; Singh, Vijay; Singh, Lalji; Majumder, Partha (2009). "Separating the post-Glacial coancestry of European and Asian Y chromosomes within haplogroup R1a". European Journal of Human Genetics 18 (4): 479–84. doi:10.1038/ejhg.2009.194. PMC 2987245. PMID 19888303. 
  13. ^ Sharma, Swarkar; Rai, Ekta; Sharma, Prithviraj; Jena, Mamata; Singh, Shweta; Darvishi, Katayoon; Bhat, Audesh K; Bhanwer, A J S; Tiwari, Pramod Kumar; Bamezai, Rameshwar N K (2009). "The Indian origin of paternal haplogroup R1a1* substantiates the autochthonous origin of Brahmins and the caste system". Journal of Human Genetics 54 (1): 47–55. doi:10.1038/jhg.2008.2. PMID 19158816. 
  14. ^ Mirabal, Sheyla; Regueiro, Maria; Cadenas, Alicia M; Cavalli-Sforza, L Luca; Underhill, Peter A; Verbenko, Dmitry A; Limborska, Svetlana A; Herrera, Rene J (2009). "Y-Chromosome distribution within the geo-linguistic landscape of northwestern Russia". European Journal of Human Genetics 17 (10): 1260–73. doi:10.1038/ejhg.2009.6. PMC 2986641. PMID 19259129. 
  15. ^ Cite error: The named reference biomedcentral.com was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  16. ^ Zhao, Zhongming; Khan, Faisal; Borkar, Minal; Herrera, Rene; Agrawal, Suraksha (2009). "Presence of three different paternal lineages among North Indians: A study of 560 Y chromosomes". Annals of Human Biology 36 (1): 46–59. doi:10.1080/03014460802558522. PMC 2755252. PMID 19058044. 
Would this be okay? it gives all basic information Pebble101 (talk)
@Pebble101: I am glad you are knowledgeable about the subject. However, you are still new to Wikipedia, and you need to better understand the policies and protocols here. First of all WP:BRD tells you that if a "bold edit" is reverted, you should discuss the matter on the article's talk page. Re-reverting constitutes edit-warring and it is frowned upon. Your contribution is not lost. It is still in the edit history, and we can go back and retrieve it after consensus is reached.
As for the matter at dispute, I have three concerns: (1) The section you are editing is not about genetics. There is a separate section for it at the bottom. So that is where any new material on genetic evidence should go. (2) The section titled "Early migrations..." is a quick summary of what people might have lived in India before the arrival of Indo-Aryans. It should not be expanded to become an entire article of its own. (3) The material you add in this section should be understandable by a non-specialist, and it should relate to people rather than DNA markers. Do you think you can do that? - Kautilya3 (talk) 09:01, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
Please note also that the material you removed from the first section is sourced to Basu et al (2003), except for the first sentence. I find nothing wrong with it. So please state clearly what your objection is. - Kautilya3 (talk) 09:23, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
Thank you for your reply, I do try to fix basic information on here as most people get their first-hand information from wikipedia before doing any major research work. Early Migrations - The current version we have covers it as "Haplogroup F and it's descendant Haplogroups" which makes up modern South-Asians from 40,000 ybp, link to F covers this. Previously existing Y-DNA haplgoroups (Pre-F Haplogroups) does not exist in South Asia anymore. M mtdna is oldest linage in South Asia, link to M covers this as well. So, we have all basics covered here that makes up modern South Asians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pebble101 (talkcontribs) 14:46, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
I am sorry. I don't understand. I am not interested in your version yet. The old version that you overwrote [1] is sourced to Basu et al (2003). What is wrong with it? Why is there a need to change it? - Kautilya3 (talk) 16:56, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
1) Y-DNA F and mtDNA-M represents the oldest linage in South Asian, as modern population are decedent of these two specific haplogroups and it's sub-clads. 2) Basu et al is good but some of those have been debunked (no mention of time-period of major migrations either) in newer studies as earliest arrivals are Adivasi F and M, we do not know what language they spoke before adopting Dravidian, Indo-European or Austro-Asiatic languages but there is 'Vedda langauge' in Sri Lanka which is linguistic isolate and they predominantly carry Haplogroup F like Adivasi tribals so they could have spoken a language related to that. 3)Rice-farming appears during Late Harrapa period and is associated with Austro-Asiatic speakers (Y-DNA O2a) in South Asia, so they are not earliest arrivals.
I have simplified the reich et al study for easier understanding in Genetics and archaeogenetics of South Asia, According to the study "ASI" is not found in South Asia since split happened 40,500 ybp but mtDNA-M represents this old linage in South Asia.
article text

According to the phylogeographic distribution of haplotypes observed among South Asian populations defined by social and linguistic criteria, the possibility arose of Y-DNA haplogroup F and mtDNA Haplogroup M might have originated in South Asia.[1] The presence of several haplogroup F, Haplogroup M and K that are largely restricted to the Indian subcontinent is consistent with the scenario that a coastal (southern route) of early human migration out of Africa carried ancestral Eurasian lineages first to the coast of the Indian subcontinent, or that some of them originated there.[2] Studies based on mtDNA variation have reported genetic unity across various Indian sub–populations.[3][4][5][6] Conclusions of studies based on Y Chromosome variation and Autosomal DNA variation have been varied, although many researchers argue that most of the ancestral nodes of the phylogenetic tree of all the mtDNA types originated in the subcontinent. Recent genome studies appear to show evidence in support of the notion that modern south Asians (both Indo-Aryans and Dravidians) are a hybrid population descending from two genetically divergent populations referred to as the 'Ancestral North Indians' related to western eurasians and the 'Ancestral South Indians' who are not closely related to groups outside the subcontinent. [7] [8] [8] [9][7][10] [11]

References

  1. ^ Cite error: The named reference Sengupta2006 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  2. ^ Kivisild, T.; Rootsi, S.; Metspalu, M.; Mastana, S.; Kaldma, K.; Parik, J.; Metspalu, E.; Adojaan, M.; Tolk, H.-V.; Stepanov, V.; Gölge, M.; Usanga, E.; Papiha, S.S.; Cinnioğlu, C.; King, R.; Cavalli-Sforza, L.; Underhill, P.A.; Villems, R. (1 February 2003). "The genetic heritage of the earliest settlers persists both in Indian tribal and caste populations". The American Journal of Human Genetics 72 (2): 313–332. doi:10.1086/346068. PMC 379225. PMID 12536373. 
  3. ^ Cite error: The named reference Kivisild1999 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  4. ^ Cite error: The named reference Baig was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  5. ^ Cite error: The named reference Kumar was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  6. ^ Trends in Molecular Anthropological Studies in India, Vikal Tripathy, A. Nirmala and B. Mohan Reddy, 2008
  7. ^ a b Moorjani, Priya; Kumarasamy Thangaraj; Nick Patterson; Alkes L. Price; Lalji Singh; David Reich (5 September 2013). "Genetic Evidence for Recent Population Mixture in India". Cell 93 (3): p422–438. PMC 2842210. PMID 19779445. Retrieved 5 September 2013. 
  8. ^ a b Reich, David; Kumarasamy Thangaraj; Nick Patterson; Alkes L. Price; Lalji Singh (24 September 2009). "Reconstructing Indian Population History". Nature 461 (7263): 489–494. doi:10.1038/nature08365. PMC 2842210. PMID 19779445. Retrieved 12 November 2013. 
  9. ^ M. Phillip Endicott, Thomas P. Gilbert, Chris Stringer, Carles Lalueza-Fox, Eske Willerslev, Anders J. Hansen, Alan Cooper (2003), "The Genetic Origins of the Andaman Islanders" (PDF), American Journal of Human Genetics 72 (1): 178–184, doi:10.1086/345487, PMC 378623, PMID 12478481, retrieved 2009-04-21, ... The HVR-1 data separate them into two lineages, identified on the Indian mainland (Bamshad et al. 2001) as M4 and M2 ... The Andamanese M2 contains two haplotypes ... developed in situ, after an early colonization ... Alternatively, it is possible that the haplotypes have become extinct in India or are present at a low frequency and have not yet been sampled, but, in each case, an early settlement of the Andaman Islands by an M2-bearing population is implied ... The Andaman M4 haplotype ... is still present among populations in India, suggesting it was subject to the late Pleistocene population expansions ... 
  10. ^ Reich, David; Thangaraj, Kumarasamy; Patterson, Nick; Price, Alkes L.; Singh, Lalji (2009). "Reconstructing Indian population history". Nature 461 (7263): 489–94. Bibcode:2009Natur.461..489R. doi:10.1038/nature08365. PMC 2842210. PMID 19779445. 
  11. ^ Reich, David; Thangaraj, Kumarasamy; Patterson, Nick; Price, Alkes L.; Singh, Lalji (2009). "Reconstructing Indian population history". Nature 461 (7263): 489–94. Bibcode:2009Natur.461..489R. doi:10.1038/nature08365. PMC 2842210. PMID 19779445. 
This covers all basics of early migration and making of modern South Asians. - — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pebble101 (talkcontribs)

I'll be adding this part in earliest migration in Indo-Aryan peoples.

article text

According to the phylogeographic distribution of haplotypes observed among South Asian populations defined by social and linguistic criteria, the possibility arose of Y-DNA haplogroup F and mtDNA Haplogroup M might have originated in South Asia.[1] The presence of several haplogroup F, Haplogroup M and K that are largely restricted to the Indian subcontinent is consistent with the scenario that a coastal (southern route) of early human migration out of Africa carried ancestral Eurasian lineages first to the coast of the Indian subcontinent, or that some of them originated there.[2] Studies based on mtDNA variation have reported genetic unity across various Indian sub–populations.[3][4][5][6]

References

  1. ^ Cite error: The named reference Sengupta2006 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  2. ^ Kivisild, T.; Rootsi, S.; Metspalu, M.; Mastana, S.; Kaldma, K.; Parik, J.; Metspalu, E.; Adojaan, M.; Tolk, H.-V.; Stepanov, V.; Gölge, M.; Usanga, E.; Papiha, S.S.; Cinnioğlu, C.; King, R.; Cavalli-Sforza, L.; Underhill, P.A.; Villems, R. (1 February 2003). "The genetic heritage of the earliest settlers persists both in Indian tribal and caste populations". The American Journal of Human Genetics 72 (2): 313–332. doi:10.1086/346068. PMC 379225. PMID 12536373. 
  3. ^ Cite error: The named reference Kivisild1999 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  4. ^ Cite error: The named reference Baig was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  5. ^ Cite error: The named reference Kumar was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  6. ^ Trends in Molecular Anthropological Studies in India, Vikal Tripathy, A. Nirmala and B. Mohan Reddy, 2008

It should explain basic information about earliest migration into South Asia during Paleolithic era. - — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pebble101 (talkcontribs)

@Pebble101:Sorry, none of your versions are as informative as the Basu et al (2003) version. They are still couched in genetic terminology and don't speak of populations. I am not sure why you are so bent on deleting the Basu-based text. You haven't answered that to my satisfaction. Please expect further objections if you replace the text. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 14:16, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
@Pebble101: My objection still stands. This introductory section is not about genetics. We need to talk about populations as the old version did. Please feel free to put genetic information in the appropriate section. - Kautilya3 (talk) 13:57, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── @Kautilya3: Genetics gives basic and accurate idea about early migrations unlike concept of "Oids", my previous version is accurate, you can't explain migrations through racial science. Have you come across any page that gives such silly race-type based information regarding ethnic or linguistic group? It's immature.

Regrading use of racial types in Balgir's 2004 and 2006 CFSL study -

article text

Balgir (2004)[1] designates tribes as Australoid or Proto-Australoid according to language family. A 2006 CFSL research article which assessed "3522 individuals belonging to 54 endogamous Indian populations, representing all major ethnic, linguistic and geographic groups for genetic variations to support such classifications found no conclusive evidence. It further summed that "the absence of genetic markers to support the general clustering of population groups based on ethnic, linguistic, geographic or socio-cultural affiliations" undermines the broad groupings based on such affiliations that exist in population genetic studies and forensic databases.[2]

As stated above, it's simply not logical in terms of South Asia to characterize migrations into racial type. Genetics gives a basic idea of shared heritage through migrations across sub-continent. I have given every basic reliable information for basic understanding regarding early migration into Indian-Subcontinent. We should keep the previous version instead of promoting concepts of racial science.

P. S - I've also linked Indo-European migrations in {{Main|Indo-European migrations|Indo-Aryan migration}} - — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pebble101 (talkcontribs)

If your problem is the mention of "oids", that is only in the first sentence, which you are free to rewrite. There is no need to replace the rest of the section which is sourced to a recent research article Basu (2003). I notice that I have told you this on 9 February, when I also warned you about edit-warring. But edit-warring is what you are doing right now. While the matter is in dispute, the pre-dispute version should stay. Do you get that? And, for heaven's sake, please sign your posts! - Kautilya3 (talk) 15:13, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I understand your concern but i have included over 5 studies, it gives a clear picture of early migrations into subcontinent through genetic studies, and link to Genetics and archaeogenetics of South Asia and each haplogroup found in subcontinent further explains these migrations and origin. I have already given source against the use of 'oids' when it comes to explaining these migrations into South Asia. Pebble101 (talk) 16:50, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

User:Pebble101 - your text uses gentis.ru which fails WP:RS. It also uses a backup website of a Scottish clan, the McDonalds. Why did you think that was suitable? If you want to copy material from other articles it's your responsibiity to make sure the references meet our criteria and actually back the text they are used for. Doug Weller (talk) 18:09, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

WP:COATRACK[edit]

Peopling of India seems to me to be the proper place for most of this info. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:54, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

At further reflection: this whole article is unnecessary. The "Earliest migrations" section duplicates "Peopling of India"; and the migration-section doubles Indo-Aryan migration theory. I suggest we strip it of all but the lists. And I'll just do so, per WP:BOLD. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 09:31, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
Approved! But noting that the Peopling of India article is in terrible shape.--regentspark (comment) 15:58, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Some copyvio[edit]

There is probably more, and I think these have been in a while, but here's what I found looking at an edit in another article:

"According to the phylogeographic distribution of haplotypes observed among South Asian populations defined by social and linguistic criteria, the possibility arose of Y-DNA haplogroup F and mtDNA Haplogroup M might have originated in South Asia." is copyvio from the source with a possible pov change: "On the basis of the combined phylogeographic distributions of haplotypes observed among populations defined by social and linguistic criteria, candidate HGs that most plausibly arose in situ within the boundaries of present-day India include C5-M356, F*-M89, H-M69*"[2]

"The presence of several haplogroup F, Haplogroup M and K that are largely restricted to the Indian subcontinent is consistent with the scenario that a coastal of early human migration out of Africa carried ancestral Eurasian lineages first to the coast of the Indian subcontinent, or that some of them originated there" cf with "The presence of several subclusters of F and K (H, L, R2, and F*) that are largely restricted to the Indian subcontinent is consistent with the scenario that the coastal (southern route) migration(s) from Africa carried the ancestral Eurasian lineages first to the coast of Indian subcontinent (or that some of them originated there)."[3] Doug Weller (talk) 17:48, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Contemporary people[edit]

Are there criteria for inclusion of a group in this list? I note that a few castes are included but hundreds are missing and that some subgroups (Saraiki people, for example) are included while others (Pahari people) are not. --regentspark (comment) 02:14, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

  1. ^ Balgir, RS and Dash, BP and Murmu, B. (2004). "Blood groups, hemoglobinopathy and G-6-PD deficiency investigations among fifteen major scheduled tribes of Orissa, India". Anthropologist 6: 69–75. 
  2. ^ Kashyap, VK and Guha, S. and Sitalaximi, T. and Bindu, G.H. and Hasnain, S.E. and Trivedi, R. (2006). "Genetic structure of Indian populations based on fifteen autosomal microsatellite loci" (PDF). BMC Genetics 7: 28. doi:10.1186/1471-2156-7-28. PMC 1513393. PMID 16707019.