Talk:Intelligent design
| Intelligent design has been listed as a level-5 vital article in Philosophy. If you can improve it, please do. This article has been rated as FA-Class. |
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| Many of these questions arise frequently on the talk page concerning Intelligent design (ID).
Q1: Should ID be equated with creationism?
A1: ID is a form of creationism, and many sources argue that it is identical. U.S. District Judge John E. Jones III ruled that it "cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents", and Phillip E. Johnson, one of the founders of the ID movement, stated that the goal of intelligent design is to cast creationism as a scientific concept.[1][2]
Not everyone agrees with this. For example, philosopher Thomas Nagel argues that intelligent design is very different from creation science (see "Public Education and Intelligent Design", Philosophy and Public Affairs, Vol. 36, no. 2, 2008). Although intelligent design proponents do not name the designer, they make it clear that the designer is the Christian god.[3][4][5][1] In drafts of the 1989 high-school level textbook Of Pandas and People, almost all derivations of the word "creation", such as "creationism", were replaced with the words "intelligent design".[6] Taken together, the Kitzmiller ruling, statements of ID's main proponents, the nature of ID itself, and the history of the movement, make it clear—Discovery Institute's protestations to the contrary notwithstanding—that ID is a form of creationism, modified to appear more secular than it really is. This is in line with the Discovery Institute's stated strategy in the Wedge Document. Q2: Should ID be characterized as science?
A2: The majority of scientists state that ID should not be characterized as science. This was the finding of Judge Jones during the Kitzmiller hearing, and is a position supported by the overwhelming majority of the scientific community.[7]
Scientists say that ID cannot be regarded as scientific theory because it is untestable even in principle. A scientific theory predicts the outcome of experiments. If the predicted outcome is not observed, the theory is false. There is no experiment which can be constructed which can disprove intelligent design. Unlike a true scientific theory, it has absolutely no predictive capability. It doesn't run the risk of being disproved by objective experiment. Q3: Should the article cite any papers about ID?
A3: According to Wikipedia's sourcing policy, Wikipedia:Verifiability, papers that support ID should be used as primary sources to explain the nature of the concept.
The article as it stands does not cite papers that support ID because no such papers have been published in peer-reviewed scientific journals. Behe himself admitted this under cross examination, during the Kitzmiller hearings, and this has been the finding of scientists and critics who have investigated this claim.[7][8][9][10] In fact, the only article published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal that made a case for intelligent design was quickly withdrawn by the publisher for having circumvented the journal's peer-review standards.[11][12] Broadly speaking, the articles on the Discovery Institute list all fail for any of four reasons:
Q4: Is this article unfairly biased against ID?
A4: There have been arguments over the years about the article's neutrality and concerns that it violates Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy. The NPOV policy does not require all points of view to be represented as equally valid, but it does require us to represent them. The policy requires that we present ID from the point of view of disinterested philosophers, biologists and other scientists, and that we also include the views of ID proponents and opponents. We should not present minority views as though they are majority ones, but we should also make sure the minority views are correctly described and not only criticized, particularly in an article devoted to those views, such as this one. Q5: Is the Discovery Institute a reliable source?
A5: The Discovery Institute is a reliable primary source about its views on ID, though it should not be used as an independent secondary source.
The core mission of the Discovery Institute is to promote intelligent design. The end purpose is to duck court rulings that eliminated religion from the science classroom, by confusing people into conflating science and religion. In light of this, the Discovery Institute can not be used as a reference for anything but their beliefs, membership and statements. Questionable sources, according to the sourcing policy, WP:V, are those with a poor reputation for fact-checking or with no editorial oversight, and should only be used in articles about themselves. Articles about such sources should not repeat any contentious claims the source has made about third parties, unless those claims have also been published by reliable sources. Q6: Are all formulations of intelligent design pseudoscience? Was William Paley doing pseudoscience when he argued that natural features should be attributed to "an intelligent and designing Creator"?
A6: While the use of the phrase intelligent design in teleological arguments dates back to at least the 1700s,[13] Intelligent Design (ID) as a term of art begins with the 1989 publication of Of Pandas and People.[14] Intelligent design is classified as pseudoscience because its hypotheses are effectively unfalsifiable. Unlike Aquinas and Paley, modern ID denies its religious roots and the supernatural nature of its explanations.[15] For an extended discussion about definitions of pseudoscience, including Intelligent Design, see Pigliucci, Massimo; Boudry, Maarten, eds. (2013), Philosophy of Pseudoscience: Reconsidering the Demarcation Problem, University of Chicago, ISBN 978-0-226-05179-6. Notes and references
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Semi-protected edit request on 18 September 2018[edit]
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Please change the opening sentence "Intelligent design (ID) is a pseudoscientific argument for the existence of God," to "Intelligent design (ID) is a scientific argument for intelligence being the originator of all information embedded within things, like the information contained in DNA."
The God of the bible is NOT an implication of this theory, it could have been that we were seeded here by a comet for all we know, or even aliens.
Observing intelligence(humans) creating information (writing a book maybe, or even a wikipedia article!) is indeed an everyday occurrence, and should not be labeled as pseudoscientific. Inferring intelligence is not new to science at all, investigators hypothesise intelligence in cases of arson, insurance (fraud) and Crime Scene Investigation. Forensic Science departments live by this hypothesis.
The evidence is then examined in order to rule out the hypothesis of intelligence, or to affirm it by ruling out chance.
Intelligent Design does the exact same thing. It hypothesises intelligence, and then goes about examining evidence for the origin of information in everyday life, and rules out chance in the inference based on the evidence.
It is arbitrary to say that we can hypothesise intelligence in cases of insurance fraud, but not in the origin of information. That would be against the spirit of science, which is open to enquiry and free of all bias. Science does not presuppose materialism.
It is not to say that Intelligent Design implies a God. That is another case altogether.
Theories like Panspermia and others are then also given a fair chance, like the aforementioned idea that life could have been seeded here by a comet or aliens.
Thanks and kind regards, Usul1980 (talk) 09:33, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
- No. It is well sourced as pseudoscience.Charles (talk) 10:11, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
- good grief no. Roxy, in the middle. wooF 10:19, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}}template. Galobtter (pingó mió) 10:20, 18 September 2018 (UTC)- These arguments make no sense. But most importantly, you did not provide a reliable source to support your suggested formulation (Wikipedia articles are not based on editor opinions). —PaleoNeonate – 13:27, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
- Hello Usul1980. I see you've smacked headlong into the intense bias of this place. Don't despair! (Of course ID is well sourced as pseudoscience by well-biased sources.) Bob Enyart, Denver KGOV radio host (talk) 18:40, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
- Bob, if you're just here to whine about "bias", I'm going to have to remind you that that is not an appropriate use of talk pages. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 18:48, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, Wikipedia is biased in favour of empirically established reality. Creationists have always had a problem witht hat, hence Conservapedia. Guy (Help!) 14:36, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
Edit warring.[edit]
@Jevoussaluemarie: You are currently edit warring and may end up blocked if you don't stop. I'll give you a good reason to stop: theology and teleology are two entirely different things. I can see that you've mistaken the latter for the former already by claiming that the teleological argument is unrelated to the argument from design. All you need to do to show how wrong that is is to click on both links I just gave and notice that they go to the same page.
Also, the fact that you found someone who says something doesn't make that something the scholarly consensus. You need to provide sources that directly support your claims, not sources that sorta support something similar to your claim. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 22:39, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
- A WP:RS: https://web.archive.org/web/20070423074520/http://www.mrrena.com/misc/Swinburne.shtml Tgeorgescu (talk) 23:46, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
- In what strange universe is that a WP:RS for anything? - Nick Thorne talk 09:14, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
- Why couldn't Richard Swinburne be a RS for stuff in this universe? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:32, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
- It's a RS that philosopher Richard Swinburne has stated "I understand by an argument from design one which argues from some general pattern of order in the universe or provision for the needs of conscious beings to a God responsible for these phenomena. An argument from a general pattern of order I shall call a teleological argument." . . dave souza, talk 10:04, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, the meaning was if Swinburne does not know that these would be different arguments, then nobody knows that. Tgeorgescu (talk) 18:00, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
- But Swinburne's opinion is not the subject of this article and so his opinion is irrelevant. We reflect the scholarly consensus for articles about science and purported science. An essay by some Christian apologist philosopher may be all very interesting, but in this context it is simply an appeal to authority and thus not a WP:RS. The only way that the reference can reasonably be used is if Swinburne's comments are quoted here in the normal course of events and then it can be used as a RS to back up that he made those statements and nothing more. - Nick Thorne talk 04:21, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, the meaning was if Swinburne does not know that these would be different arguments, then nobody knows that. Tgeorgescu (talk) 18:00, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
- It's a RS that philosopher Richard Swinburne has stated "I understand by an argument from design one which argues from some general pattern of order in the universe or provision for the needs of conscious beings to a God responsible for these phenomena. An argument from a general pattern of order I shall call a teleological argument." . . dave souza, talk 10:04, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
- Why couldn't Richard Swinburne be a RS for stuff in this universe? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:32, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
- In what strange universe is that a WP:RS for anything? - Nick Thorne talk 09:14, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
- Here's what Swinburne says in the extract from Is There a God? (OUP, 2010): "Now this phenomenon, like the very existence of the world, is clearly something ‘too big’ to be explained by science.... Science thus explains particular phenomena and low-level laws in terms partly of high-level laws. But from the very nature of science it cannot explain the highest-level laws of all; for they are that by which it explains all other phenomena."
- Where ID breaks with Swinburne is that it claims that science can be used to prove the existence of a designer, while he says it cannot. ID falsely claims that the teleological theory is science and can be tested empirically, which is why it is a pseudoscience.
- TFD (talk) 20:29, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
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