Talk:International recognition of Abkhazia and South Ossetia

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Medvedev's Perspectives on Kosovo[edit]

Regarding Kosovo, President Medvedev was correct. One cannot support a region breaking away from a state for purely ethnic reasons (i.e. Kosovo from Serbia) and then deny this right to other regions round the world such as Abkhazia and South Ossetia. However, the interest and motives of Russia in this area are unclear and could be discussed in the article. Is it oil or something else, for example. I doubt whether England would intervene to protect a breakaway Shetland Islands from an independent Scotland.

Vanuatu issue[edit]

As we can read from this source — "В 2011 году мы написали признание Абхазии и запрос дипломатических отношений. Ничего не изменилось, за исключением того, что мы не установили дипломатические отношения с Абхазией, но установили с Грузией." Vanuatu has official diplomatic relations with Georgia, that means Vanuatu recognize Georgia's territorial integrity. Id est if Vanuatu has official relations with Georgia it provides respect of Georgian territory including Abkhazia and informal unofficial "relations" with Abkhazia of one man from Vanuatu can't be more weighty than official agreements between these two countries (Georgia and Vanuatu). --g. balaxaZe 08:27, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

  • He says that not only established diplomatic relations, speech derecognition not going--Murza-Zade (talk) 11:10, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Such contradictions caused by the ambiguity of these statements about what exactly they recognized the territorial integrity with Abkhazia or without--Murza-Zade (talk) 11:10, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
Vanuatu withdrew recognition, this is very common knowledge on this article's subject. IJA (talk) 11:23, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
“the Republic of Vanuatu recognizes territorial integrity of Georgia within its internationally recognized borders, including its regions - the Autonomous Republic of Abkhazia and the Tskhinvali Region/South Ossetia,” [1] [2] [3] [4] IJA (talk) 11:25, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
"COUTTS: And so did you say, did I hear you correctly, that that relationship with Abkhazia and South Ossettia was never signed with Vanuatu? NATAPEI; No, it was never signed. The former minister of foreign affairs actually announced it, but they never did formalise it, so when I came in as Minister of Foreign Affairs, we checked it up and we realised that there hadn't been any formalisation of that decision, so we it was a simple issue of deciding to establish diplomatic relations with Georgia and that's what we did." IJA (talk) 11:33, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
No one has claimed that they didn't withdraw recognition in 2013. But Vanuatu has had 6 different PMs since originally recognizing in May 2011, and each takes a different position on the matter. The sources you link to are out of date as they quote people from a government that is no longer in power. The new sources suggest that Vanuatu's new government, which was in charge when Vanuatu previously recognized Abkhazia, has reiterated their original position: "In 2011, we wrote the recognition of Abkhazia and request diplomatic relations. Nothing has changed, except that we have not established diplomatic relations with Abkhazia, but established with Georgia." TDL (talk) 14:31, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
But establishing diplomatic relations with Georgia automatically means that they respect and recognize territorial integrity of Georgia, and let say until they won't establish such relations with Abkhazia withdraw is in power. --g. balaxaZe 17:20, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
The Foreign Minister of Vanuatu explicitly says that he doesn't consider diplomatic relations with Georgia and Abkhazia to be incompatible. And he explicitly states that Vanuatu still recognises Abkhazia.sephia karta | dimmi 18:17, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
No it does not. The United States maintains diplomatic relations with Serbia while also recognizing Kosovo. Diplomatic relations and respect for territorial integrity are separate issues.[5][6][7] TDL (talk) 18:26, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
TDL as it written and sourced in the article "On 12 July 2013 Georgia and Vanuatu signed an agreement on establishing diplomatic and consular relations, which stated that "the Republic of Vanuatu recognises territorial integrity of Georgia within its internationally recognised borders, including its regions - the Autonomous Republic of Abkhazia and the Tskhinvali Region/South Ossetia." so what are you trying to prove I don't understand. --g. balaxaZe 18:34, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
Yes, but that was 2013. This is 2015. There is a new government of Vanuatu, and they have reversed their position again. Vanuatu has the sovereign right to change their position at any point they choose. Citing Vanuatu's position in 2013 does not refute newer sources showing that they have changed their position. TDL (talk) 18:40, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
From 2013 I am citing Vanuatu's official position (signed agreement), but from 2015 you are citing just one man's position, his words has no power until they are not written in official documents and shown as Vanuatu's position. --g. balaxaZe 19:22, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
And maybe Vanuatu government during meetings with Abkhazian officials says one, and with Georgian officials says something different – for every one Vanuatu has what they want to hear… Aotearoa (talk) 08:01, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
Yes, the words of this "one man" do have power, as he controls Vanuatu's foreign policy. Unless you can provide a more recent statement from either himself or Vanuatu's Prime Minister that directly contradicts this, it would be OR not to accept his words as Vanuatu's official position. sephia karta | dimmi 09:23, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
Shame on all of you, who tries to promote their "independence". If Putin say Alaska is Russia's territory just because he is a president of RF doesn't mean that "his statement" is official, has power and Alaska is really part of Russia. So as you can understand from my example just because that man "controls Vanuatu's foreign policy" doesn't mean that his words are as powerful as signed agreements and documents between two countries (Georgia and Vanuatu). Unless you won't provide official statement from the official website of the Government of Vanuatu your try is groundless, and just representation of your personal attitude about "independence" of Abkhazia--g. balaxaZe 15:21, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
Please stop resorting to ad hominem, and address the issues being raised. I understand that this is a sensitive issue for Georgians, but just because editors want to accurately represent up to date facts does not mean they are trying to promote Abkhazia's independence.
The FM is the authority on the matter. He sets policy. He explained the position of the government on the matter. There is absolutely no need for a treaty or official document to formalize his statements. If the FM of Nauru announced tomorrow that it no longer recognized Abkhazia, it would be removed from the list, whether or not there was an official document. TDL (talk) 16:03, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
I don't know what about Kosovo or Serbia but in Georgian law it is impossible to have relations with country that do not recognize your full sovereignty. If Vanuatu has relations with Georgia it means that they recognize Georgia from Psou to Alazani and from Sarpi to Roki. As you can check with all 4 countries which recognized conflict regions Georgia has no relations IT IS JUST IMPOSSIBLE. And when Vanuatu signed agreement, that proved officially with document — they respect Georgia's territorial integrity and recognize Abkhazia and Tskhinvali Region as Georgia's part. I insist if Vanuatu recognize Abkhazia then first what they have to do is to break relations with Georgia and revoke signed agreement with Georgia. They didn't do that so officially Vanuatu recognize Georgia's territorial integrity as it was before that man's interview with RIA Novosti.
P.S. policy sets Government, FM is just head of one branch, FM deals with Government.--g. balaxaZe 07:45, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
No, Vanuatu does not need to break relations with Georgia first, they can do whatever they please. They do not need to follow Georgia's laws since Georgian law does not apply to Vanuatu. Of course, Georgia is free to break relations with Vanuatu if they so please, but that is an entirely separate issue.
I suggest you look at the other four cases in the past, as they don't support your theory. For example, Nicaragua recognized Abkhazia in September 2008.[8] However, they did not sever relations with Georgia first. In fact, it was not until November 2008 that Georgia decided to retaliate by severing relations with Nicaragua.[9] So the entire premise of your argument is flawed.
And I have no idea what you mean by "policy sets Government". Nor "FM deals with Government". The FM IS government, so it can't deal with government. The FM is responsible for foreign affairs and sets policy. They don't meed to ask the Health Minister, or Energy Minister for permission. TDL (talk) 14:59, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
Vanuatu has not made a clear-cut statement on recognition. I would not call that minister's vague statement, clearly aimed at pleasing the Russian ears, a confirmation of recognition. Interestingly, only a couple of Russian-language news websites cite this statement, while the rest of international media have not reported it at all. This is in contrast to Vanuatu's earlier diplomatic antics—its recognition and subsequent withdrawal thereof—which were extensively reported by various media outlets. --KoberTalk 20:11, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
There is nothing vague about that statement, and it is cited literally. What is more, I don't think we actually have any direct statements by ni-Vanuatu sources stating that Vanuatu (under Carcasses) stopped recognising Abkhazia's independence. All we have is citations of Georgian officials. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) sephia karta | dimmi 13:15, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
Yes, you are wrong. Here is the source which has nothing to do with the Georgian officials. On the other hand, the Vanuatu officials have a long history of making false or contradictory statements on this issue. Here is one illustrative example; back in 2011, the Russian news outlet Kommersant published a copy of the joint statement of Vanuatu and Abkhaz MFAs on establishment of bilateral diplomatic relations at ambassadorial levels. However, all available evidence, including from the top current and former Vanuatu officials indicate that the diplomatic relations between the two entities have never been established and the things did not go farther than a verbal statement of intention by the Vanuatu foreign minister. On the other hand, we have credible third-party sources that Georgia and Vanuatu have enjoyed diplomatic relations since 12 March 2013. And this could hardly be possible without mutual declaration of respect of each other's sovereignty and territorial integrity.--KoberTalk 14:21, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
Per Ria Novosti is Russian state-operated domestic Russian-language news agency and as Russian state likes to use media for its propaganda goals and per Kober's comment above, I think the best is to wait if any reliable third source (nor russian or abkhazian) write about that. Or we won't have video version of that man's statement and after that make some changes. So, I am reverting the last ones.--g. balaxaZe 22:53, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
Isn't the alleged statement at least worth mentioning in the notes about Vanuatu? GeoEvan (talk) 05:47, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
You are accusing Ria Novosti of falsely attributing words to a foreign government dignitary without a shred of evidence. I am reverting your deletion (which also removed other material). sephia karta | dimmi 13:42, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
Well no. Natapei only states that his government decided not to go through with establishing diplomatic relations with Abkhazia. This is completely in line with what Kilman stated in his recent interview. I repeat: we have no statement by a ni-Vanuatu official that Vanuatu withdrew recognition, but we do have a recent statement that recognition is still in place.
As for your second assertion, Vanuatu's Foreign Minister at the time confirmed (on Vanuatu's government website) that Vanuatu and Abkhazia did indeed sign a document on establishing diplomatic relations. Vanuatu's position since then has been that it never finalised the procedure, which is fine, but it does not affect recognition. sephia karta | dimmi 13:34, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Okay, agreed; there was recognition by Vanuatu, but there are no diplomatic relations (see below), so the article needs fixing. According to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Vanuatu, on March 2015, in :

"Interviewer: That means that now Vanuatu does not recognize Abkhazia as an independent state?

Foreign Minister of Vanuatu: In 2011, [when the party that is now the opposition was in office in Vanuatu], we wrote a request for the recognition of Abkhazia and [the establishment of] diplomatic relations. Nothing has changed, except that we have not established diplomatic relations with Abkhazia, but have rather established diplomatic relations with Georgia. Interviewer: And now you want to establish diplomatic relations with Abkhazia?

Foreign Minister of Vanuatu: Yes, we [the Foreign Ministry of Vanuatu] is in fact waiting for a decision to be made by the Vanuatuan government and orientation on the issue be given to us on the issue. In Vanuatu, there are different viewpoints, different political parties. When the political ambiance in Vanuatu reaches a decision on what the country's position on this issue should be, the Foreign Ministry will be given all the information.

Interviewer: But you, do you hope that diplomatic relations between Abkhazia and Vanuatu will be established any time soon?

Foreign Minister of Vanuatu: Yes, I hope so." MissionFix (talk) 16:26, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Vanuatu's Government officially issued a statement saying that the recognition of March 2011 had been cancelled and withdrawn by Vanuatu: MissionFix (talk) 16:58, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, and a couple weeks later they issued another that withdrew that withdrawal.[10] We aren't discussing the status in 2011, we are discussing the status in 2015. TDL (talk) 03:47, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
What a fool things are you doing here? This Wikipedia and not your own blog! That minister's hopes (Foreign Minister of Vanuatu: Yes, I hope so.") doesn't mean anything. I. E. Vanuatu Does Not Recognize Abkhazia !--g. balaxaZe 07:58, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
As it was said above firstly provide any third reliable source about that new recognition and then make changes. Stop your politically motivated editing without any reliable source! Sephia I am not accusing РИА Новости, I am just stating facts and in this controversial case third sources needed!--g. balaxaZe 08:08, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
Here it is ! Official Press Release of the Government of Vanuatu about its withdrawal of recognition of Abkhazia. This is not claim and so on, but officially signed document about canceled recognition. Therefore unless you won't provide such kind of source any change about that issue is willful and baseless.--g. balaxaZe 11:03, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
Giorgi, please stop and read the sources listed above again as you have not understood them. The Minister's "hope" is to establish diplomatic relations with Abkhazia. However, the Minister very clearly says that "nothing has changed" with regards to the recognition of 2011. This discussion is about recognition and not diplomatic relations.
"unless you won't provide such kind of source" - I have, it's listed directly above your post. See: [11]. It's an official document signed by the MFA which postdates the statement you've linked to, and makes it very clear that the June withdrawal you cite was itself withdrawn.
Finally, please stop making bad faith accusations. Given that you have infoboxes promoting your political ideology on the subject and have been indefinite blocked for disruptive editing on the issue on commons, you really aren't in a position to accuse others of "politically motivated editing". I understand that this is a sensitive issue for Georgians such as yourself, but just because people disagree with you does not make them "politically motivated". TDL (talk) 03:05, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Other new post-Soviet states[edit]

If there is this article comprising 2 mostly unrecognized states, then I think it would make more sense either if each state had its own corresponding article or if all states would have the same article (so far, South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Nagorno-Karabakh Republic, Transnistria and, more disputedly, Donetsk People's Republic and Luhansk People's Republic). This is not a political statement, it's just a question. Viet-hoian1 (talk) 02:37, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

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