Talk:Invasion of Poland

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Former featured articleInvasion of Poland is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on July 19, 2005.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
May 14, 2005Peer reviewReviewed
May 27, 2005Featured article candidatePromoted
September 29, 2009Featured article reviewDemoted
Current status: Former featured article

German casualties[edit]

On infobox is this number of german casualties:

"16,343 killed, 320 missing, 27,640 wounded"

But i think is wrong. Why??:

1. In Wehrmacht Zentralstatistik, Stand 30.11.1944 we can found this number (Heer only):

16843 KIA, 36473 WIA, 320 MIA

You see two different numbers 16343 and 16843. Real number is "16843", but anybody in the past read "3" at the point where is "8" and until today this wrong number is still put.

2. Luftwaffe losses is:

549 KIA, 407 WIA

3. Kriegsmarine losses is:

77 KIA, 115 WIA, 3 MIA

4. So - result is (Heer + Luftwaffe + Kriegsmarine):

17469 KIA, 36995 WIA, 323 MIA (actually died, but body never found)

This data not included number of german irregular units (Selbschutz, Freikorps, Abwehr and SD sabotage units).

"Cavalry mentality"[edit]

An editor added this to the article:

Contrary to the frequent criticism that the Polish army was preoccupied with the concept of horse armies and had a cavalry mentality, only 8% of its officers and men were in cavalry service.[1]

References

  1. ^ Michael Alfred Peszke, Poland's Preparation for World War II, Military Affairs 43 (Feb 1979): 18-24

I removed it, because the statistic presented does not "prove" that the Polish army did not have a "calvary mentality". To do this, one would need percentages of the cavalry over time I.e. did they reduce the number of soldiers on horse as they modernized their army), percentages of numbers of tanks over time and numbers of infantry in mechanized units (again, to see if they were modernizing at the same rate as other countries) and -- most importantly -- the percentages represented by the cavalry in the armies of other countries for comparison. Poland can only be said to have or not have a "cavalry mentality" in comparison to other armies - it's not some kind of absolute that a single figure can prove or disprove. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:54, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

  • Peszke (a well respected historian) claims that Poland's army did not have a cavalry mentality. Can you cite other historians who have a contrary view? JustSomePics (talk) 06:58, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
  • You cannot write something in Wikipedia's voice that is said by a single historian. I have read numerous histories that claimed that one of the reasons the Poles lost was that they had failed to modernize their army sufficiently, and still held on to cavalry well past the point that it had any functional purpose. You have cited a single historian saying otherwise -- that's not nearly enough. If it's going to be in the article as a fact, it needs to be accepted by historians in general.
    You've also completely failed to address my point that "the cavalry was only 8% of the army" is not sufficient to prove the argument you say Peszke attempted to make. It's somewhat equivalent to saying that only 0.05 percent of NFL football players are quarterbacks, therefore NFL teams don't have a "quarterback mentality" - it's an extremely superficial analysis which, if Peszke actually made it (and you aren't mis-attrubting what he said), is not one that should ever be made by a "reputable historian". Beyond My Ken (talk) 10:32, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
  • We are not professional historians or military experts so it is not our place to have this kind of debate. Would you object is I simply incorporated the fact that cavalry comprised 8% of the Polish army somewhere into this article? I am willing to avoid mentioning anything else.JustSomePics (talk) 18:57, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
  • This discussion is entirely appropriate, as it concerns what to include in the article. And, yes. We don't put random facts in our articles, especially when they have the potential to create an inappropriate impression. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:42, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
I certainly do not want to throw in facts at random, nevertheless I think this information might be useful. There might be some people out there who might have the wrong impression that the Polish army consisted mostly of cavalry. Can you suggest some possible phrasing which could incorporate this information without giving any wrong impression? JustSomePics (talk) 00:57, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
No one who knows anything about the subject thinks that the Polish Army was all cavalry. Anyone who knows nothing about the subject and thinks that is the case is an idiot, and we don't write our articles for idiots. I have no phrasing to suggest, because without context, it's meaningless, and should not be in the article. Period. If you want it in, do some research and give it the context it requires. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:42, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
During the invasion of Poland at the very beginning of World War II cavalry was utilized on both sides of the initial conflict. Things changed only in the following years. Here's the German cavalry in action. Poeticbent talk 22:48, 24 February 2018 (UTC)


Thanks for the photos above.
Cavalry had its uses, especially for reconnaissance.
Regrettably, some authors still write incorrectly about the Germans, in World War II, having destroyed the Polish Air Force on the ground; and about Polish cavalry having charged German tanks.
Nihil novi (talk) 19:44, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Germany AND Russia?[edit]

This wiki article gives the impression the invasion of Poland was some kind of coordinated, two-pronged attack by two sides of one party, although in reality it isnt. I suggest this article be changed, like in the German Wikipedia, to the German attack on Poland, and the Soviet attack on Poland some 2 weeks later.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a02:8388:501:2700:71e4:75de:11a9:e465 (talkcontribs) 16:37, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Please read "Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact". Nihil novi (talk) 19:31, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
Well, it was; at least in principle. As far as I know the general staffs involved did not assemple together and said "we draw this army group from the left and you draw this front from the right". But the political leaders involved really did say "we take this part of Poland for us and you get this part of Poland, once it's defeated".--2001:A61:260D:6E01:493A:3631:689B:C016 (talk) 16:35, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Wrong Bolesławiec is linked[edit]

Xx236 (talk) 10:42, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

spring 1939 interim[edit]

From the 'prelude' and 'breakdown of talks' sections:

On 31 March 1939, Poland formed a military alliance with the United Kingdom and France
On 28 April 1939, Hitler unilaterally withdrew from both the German-Polish Non-Aggression Pact of 1934 and the London Naval Agreement of 1935

Do any articles cover notable events that occurred during the time between March 31 and April 28? Bloody_Sunday_(1939)#Background mentions some broad descriptions:

By March 1939, these ambitions, charges of atrocities on both sides of the German-Polish border, distrust, and rising nationalist sentiment in Nazi Germany led to the complete deterioration of Polish-German relations
months prior to the 1939 German invasion of Poland, German newspapers and politicians like Adolf Hitler had carried out a national and international propaganda campaign accusing Polish authorities of organizing or tolerating violent ethnic cleansing of ethnic Germans living in Poland.

I am interested in knowing if we have covered this propaganda campaign somewhere, or gone into the specifics of these accusations. For example, on what dates were the accusations made? How many people did the the papers/Hitler claim had been cleansed? Did cleansing refer to murder or deportation?

If there is no article specifically about that (not sure what it would be called) would there be a section on another article which explains it more? ScratchMarshall (talk) 17:27, 20 June 2018 (UTC)