Talk:Invasions of the British Isles

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Military history (Rated Start-Class)
MILHIST This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality assessment scale.
WikiProject United Kingdom  
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject United Kingdom, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the United Kingdom on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's quality scale.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject England (Rated Start-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject England, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of England on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
Start-Class article Start  This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Scotland (Rated Start-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Scotland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Scotland and Scotland-related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
Start-Class article Start  This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Wales (Rated Start-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Wales, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles on Wales on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
Start-Class article Start  This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Ireland (Rated Start-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ireland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Ireland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
Start-Class article Start  This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject History (Rated Start-class)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the subject of History on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
Start-Class article Start  This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
 

Page move[edit]

I moved "Invasions of the British Isles" to "Invasions of the British Isles (2,000 BC-AD 1560)" because the page only covers invasions up to that year. DCI2026 (talk) 00:14, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Former and current article names[edit]

  • Medieval invasions of Britain
  • Medieval invasions of the British Isles
  • Invasions of the British Isles —Preceding unsigned comment added by DCI2026 (talkcontribs) 16:42, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Invasions of the British Isles (2,000 BC-AD 1560) - current name DCI2026 (talk) 00:14, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Invasions?[edit]

Not sure why Anglo-Scottish conflict or the Wars of the Roses count as "invasions of Britain"? Invasion implies attack from outside. If it were invasions of England then the Anglo-Scottish wars would count. Regards, Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 09:32, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

War of the Roses count because of the Tudor (re)invasion in the 1480-5 period, I guess. Not so sure about the Anglo-Scottish wars, presumably because of the Auld alliance? *shrug* - Jarry1250 [Who? Discuss.] 18:08, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
I included the Anglo-Scottish wars part because both the English (Battle of Bannockburn, for example) and the Scottish (William Wallace; James IV at Flodden) invaded territories of each other. Thanks for inquiring. DCI2026 (talk) 00:27, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
Well yes, Bannockburn was part of an invasion of Scotland, while Flodden was part of an invasion of England. But neither were invasions of Britain, which is what the article title is. I don't think the Anglo-Scottish wars should be included on this list. You could possibly add the Siege of Leith, which involved French troops, although they initially arrived at the behest of the Scots. So they weren't strictly speaking invading troops, but by the time of the siege they were treated as if they were. Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 08:10, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

I've also been puzzled by the inclusion of Wales & Scotland as powers that invaded the British Isles. Unless my geography is completely wrong, all three nations -- Wales, Scotland & the English -- are all on the same island. Which means none of them could invade the British Islands (with the exception of Ireland) any more than I could invade my house by walking from the bedroom to the living room. Anyone care to point out the mistake in my thinking here? -- llywrch (talk) 02:43, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

The title should be read as "of" in the sense of "Mountains of the British Isles" or "Castles of the British Isles"Monstrelet (talk) 07:15, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
This was the initial point I was making above. Monstrelet if I understand you right, you are saying that the title implies "Invasions within the British Isles". But I think this goes against the accepted meaning of "invasion" - surely as llywrch points out you can't invade Britain (or the British Isles) from within. The only way I can see to allow inclusion of Anglo-Scottish wars is to call the article "Medieval invasions of countries within the British Isles". Regards, Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 08:29, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
I think a longer title is perhaps slightly more correct (but compare, Nazi Germany invaded Europe), I think I marginally prefer the brevity of the current arrangement. - Jarry1250 [Who? Discuss.] 16:45, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
Why not "Medieval invasions of Great Britain"? That way the article is clear it omits Ireland. And removing the sections about the Anglo-Welsh & Anglo-Scots wars would simply make it more compact. (And avoid the tar pit of arguing over which boundaries of Wales & Scotland to use: these fluctuated over the centuries, enough to attract unwanted nationalistic POV-pushers.) -- llywrch (talk) 18:36, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure boundaries is an issue here - an invasion is an invasion, it's all to do with perception. Would your proposed therefore include France->England; Viking->England and Scotland; Danish->England; presumably some mention of Tudor's reinvasion? Is that right? And nothing on Wales<->England, Scotland<->England or Anything<->Ireland? - Jarry1250 [Who? Discuss.] 20:51, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
I don't think that actually matters what you mean by "of" (though I wasn't intending within) because what you are trying to get is a compact title to cover the various countries within the British Isles, rather than a long explanatory sentence. Great Britain is a political entity with no real relevance to the Middle Ages - it did exist as a concept but never an actuality - and I think the geographical term is preferable (and certainly more neutral). We did discuss whether the problem could be solved by separate articles on the different nations but the original requested article was to put them all together, so that is what currently exists. If it were to develop sufficient content, it could be split at a later date.Monstrelet (talk) 06:33, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Rename or restructure?[edit]

Most of the examples appear to be invasions of England. Given that Britain is only a geographical term at this time (the political entity being much later), is it better to entitle it Invasions of England? Failing that, to have separate sections on England, Scotland and Wales? Monstrelet (talk) 07:18, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Defining Invasions[edit]

To prevent the need to catalogue every raid, the article could do with a working definition of an invasion. I would suggest that an invasion has a strategic objective (conquest, regime change, annex territory) and involves significant forces which stay (or intend to stay) in Britain for a length of time (months, years, permanently). This would, for example, exclude many Anglo-Scottish raids, French raids on the English coast, Scandinavian raids on the Scottish coast and so on. Monstrelet (talk) 17:33, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

I support the attempt to define "invasions". However, I see very little easy way of cutting this cake. Invasions of England (and Wales?) in the period 1066-1485 I could understand - incorporating Wales when appropriate. Other articles are too washy to stand on their own I fear. But I forsee few arguments determining invasions of England/Wales in that period, if we agree that they must want to stay around for a while (conquer). - Jarry1250 [Who? Discuss.] 19:19, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
Also agree with changing name. I named it "Medieval invasions of Britain" because it was on the list for articles to be created on the medieval warfare task force page. Maybe "Medieval invasions of England, Scotland, and Wales"? Although a little lengthy, more historically correct, I would think.DCI2026 (talk) 01:08, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
Medieval Invasions of the British Isles would sound better, with major sections on England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland. However, there could then be a question about whether it should be four separate articles. It might be a place to start though. A lot depends on how much folks are willing to put in to fleshing the sections out. Monstrelet (talk) 06:25, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
Medieval Invasions of the British Isles is fine with me.DCI2026 (talk) 13:12, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Date range[edit]

The article lead defines Medieval for the purpose of the article as 793 - 1513. Artificial but you've got to have some way of dealing with woolly things like "Medieval". However, we now have content on the Rough Wooing, which is 1540s. Question : extend the date range or remove the section?Monstrelet (talk) 06:38, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Oops, this may be my mistake as I didn't read the date range in the lead before adding the Rough Wooing. Apologies. I don't mind if the section is removed. Alternatively the date could be extended to 1603, the Union of the Crowns, which put an end to Anglo-Scottish warfare. Regards, Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 07:16, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
Once we have the scope issues worked out, I would support changing this article to 1485, and having "Early modern invasions..." or somesuch as 1486 to 1707, perhaps. Just a thought. - Jarry1250 [Who? Discuss.] 16:28, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
Perhaps renaming the article yet again to "Invasions of Britain?" Long date range, but there are few invasions outside of this period with the exception of the Romans, Germanic tribes (Angles, Saxons, Jutes), Williamites, and the Jacobites. This would eliminate the many date range difficulties there have been so far.DCI2026 (talk) 00:40, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
I would also be fine with making a "parent" page titled Invasions of the British Isles and turning this article into one of many smaller articles. In that case, "medieval" could be defined as 1066-1485, and earlier invasions could be classified under "Dark Ages invasions" or "Ancient invasions." Anything from 1485 to the late 1700s-especially Jacobite or Scottish wars and the English invasions of Ireland-could go under "Early modern invasions."DCI2026 (talk) 02:23, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
Any range is rather artificial. 1066 is useful for the Normans but cuts them off from the Anglo-Danish context. 1485 gives you Bosworth but misses Stoke in 1487, which is these days regarded as the last battle of Wars of the Roses and was, of course, an invasion. If you take it to 1497 you can deal with the Perkin Warbeck invasions of that year, which finally secure the Tudors. How about 1000-1500 in round figures?Monstrelet (talk) 06:09, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
Okay, I'm going to be bold and expand it to all and any Invasions. Then, when it gets too long, we can do summary style and split bits off. Fell free to revert and discuss if you do not agree, but in the meantime, I think it's a useful starting point. - Jarry1250 [Who? Discuss.] 12:40, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
I've added sections about ancient invasions of England. Here are some sections I think are needed:

English Civil War
Jacobite invasions
English invasions of Ireland
Attempted French invasion of Ireland
Napoleonic Wars invasion "scares" DCI2026 (talk) 16:40, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

It's certainly a bold edit. Just putting in the appropriate headings and main page redirects would be a sizeable article and, if it does get the editorial attention it deserves, it may yet prove to be too big to have approapriate quality control over. However, I will now flag it on the MILHIST main page, asking for input.Monstrelet (talk) 08:04, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
Well fine, we're well placed to split bits off as and when required :) - Jarry1250 [Who? Discuss.] 13:13, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Scottish civil wars section?[edit]

I attempted to add a large section about the Scottish Civil Wars, which included Irish and English invasions of Scotland, but the site I used as a reference, tagate.com, was blocked and my changes were not saved. I'm not sure why, but, if anyone is willing, could I please have a good reference on this topic? 65.26.67.222 (talk) 15:00, 10 October 2010 (UTC) (in case an IP address shows up, I am the same as User:DCI2026)

Not sure why it was blocked, but it doesn't look like a particularly reliable source. I was going to say, check the article on Scotland in the Wars of the Three Kingdoms and sources quoted there, but there are only two, so that's not so much help as I had hoped. You might try Google Books [1] Thanks, Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 13:30, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Moved back[edit]

I have moved the page back to its more general title. My thinking is thus (please feel free to critique):

  • Summary style involves having one general page, with increasing specific subdivisions
  • There is no general page at the moment
  • It doesn't matter that this page is incomplete, we have all day
  • Therefore this page should be the fledgling general page, and can be split off at a later date. New sections (empty or sparse) can be added.

Regards, - Jarry1250 [Who? Discuss.] 19:48, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

I'd be grateful if we could stick with a generic title. Constantly switching titles with date ranges was making my head spin. 1560 wasn't a good cut off point for Ireland, with the significant Elizabethan invasions followed by the Spanish intervention to come before the end of the 16th. century. Monstrelet (talk) 08:40, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Caligula[edit]

The article refers to "the insane emperor Caligula". The supposed insanity of Caligula has not been reliably confirmed. (See here.) tehblooguy (talk) 17:21, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Still missing[edit]

Inter alia, the repeated Irish invasions of Wales from (at least) the fall of Rome to (per the Brut) Iago ab Idwal and Einion ab Owain's joint 966 campaign against them and their Viking allies. (Yes, I could add that sentence, but hopefully some of you have more sources and could flesh it out some.) — LlywelynII 13:40, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Other claims of invasion[edit]

Battle of Fishguard claims to be an invasion of Wales by the French; further, it has a redirect from Last Invasion of Britain. Similarly Teignmouth also claims to be the site of the last invasion of England. Should these, with their "last invasion of X" claims, be added to this article? Feline Hymnic (talk) 20:41, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

There are a number of later items that would need to be added if the article is ever extended beyond 1560. The English Civil War has a number of examples, as do the Jacobite Wars. In terms of this article, the last invasion is probably the French invasion of Ireland in 1798.Monstrelet (talk) 07:20, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

"British Isles" renaming[edit]

Congratulations to all our British nationalist editors who have patriotically renamed this from its original 'Medieval invasions of Britain' to 'Invasions of the British Isles'. Great to see the British still never miss an opportunity to discard historical truth and claim other people's lands as their own by using a term which only exists in the English language since an imperialist tract by John Dee claiming Ireland was written in 1577. 79.97.64.240 (talk) 13:44, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Assume good faith. Since Ireland is included in the article invasions of Britain would be incorrect and British Isles correct. Canterbury Tail talk 14:42, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
"Western European Isles" - You are from Germany, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Netherlands & France. Plus the "Orginal Britons" The Celts (Kelti) and the people before them. Slán. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.157.170.90 (talk) 00:14, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
British Isles is the correct geographical term, as was discussed here long ago. Britain would need a definition of which political entity we were talking about (which varies through time), which seems pointless.Monstrelet (talk) 07:52, 4 November 2015 (UTC)