Talk:Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant
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Contents
Editorial bias[edit]
The Lead reads throughout as if ISIL is a Very Bad Thing. Not exactly encyclopaedic, is it? ~ P-123 (talk) 11:55, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
August 2015 (UTC)
- Back in March a two part edit was made with the complaint that the article "fails to mention anything positive about them" but another editor deleted the comment as satire. I reopened discussion in a thread now found at Talk:Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant/Archive 31#Has ISIL done any good? Content within the article is as it is found in RS and opportunity is always available for comment on what should be presented.
- If you want a content to be changed it would be well to make a proposal. The most commonly used and I think valid descriptions used for the group are extremist and terrorist. The second was kept in by consensus but has since been edited out. There also has to be an element within which we directly present the group with clear and accurate description. GregKaye 15:08, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
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- The The Holocaust article Lead reads throughout as if Holocaust is a Very Bad Thing. I assume we can consider it as encyclopædic as it is rated class B.
- If you "fails to mention anything positive about them", this might depend on what you consider positive, but you can consider as positive for Daesh that «Besides the sectarian angle, Daesh appears attractive for young religious militants because of the territory it controls and the financial resources it possesses. » www.dawn.com/news/1160813 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.193.105.53 (talk) 23:25, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
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- I agree - with the caveat that if you clearly, accurately and dispassionately describe something that most readers would objectively consider to be a "very bad thing," it's going to sound pretty bad. In this case, what ISIL says and does is evil enough to shock the conscience of the civilized world. We absolutely need to approach it dispassionately and encyclopedically, but if we also do it accurately (as we must) then the nature of what is being done will be evident. Neutrality means that we, as Wikipedia editors, do not offer our own judgment as to the evil or virtue of the subject. However, it also does not allow us to skew the discussion to make the subject appear in a more positive light than the available facts and sources justify. I'm convinced that with some editorial discipline we can portray ISIL dispassionately. I don't see any way to portray ISIL that is both accurate and positive. EastTN (talk) 15:33, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
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Interesting to see an ISIL supporter in here trying to inject positive things, when the group spends a lot of energy trying to shock the world. Legacypac (talk) 12:32, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
There seems to be very significant editorial bias against anything lending weight to US support to, or at least ambivalence toward ISIL. (Given the recent calls by prominent political and military leaders to support Al Qaeda, this is less shocking than some would profess). However, all kinds of allegations that the Syrian government supports ISIL are given prominent space, despite the premise being rather far-fetched (Assad is close to being toppled, according to most reports). I added (under 'Conspiracy Theories') a mention of the recent report by the Associated Press that the Greek government had reported that the US government had pressured it to refuse to allow Russia to use Greek airspace to supply military assistance to the Syrian government, ostensibly for use against ISIL and other related groups like Al Qaeda/Al Nusra. My post was removed 4 minutes later by a moderator who admits to be a US government employee (at least he is being honest). I can understand editing or even removing the conclusion that this could support the view that elements of the US government are possibly interested in perpetuating the conflict, such that no side wins (not so far-fetched, given the stated aim of removing Assad, as well as views of some neocons within government about rolling back Iraq, then Syria, and then finally Iran), but to remove the reference to a report by AP entirely seems heavy-handed. The editor's comment was that there is no credible evidence that the US supports ISIL; how can we judge the credibility of that assertion when any evidence that might support that assertion is removed automatically? It seems the editors feel that such assertions are 'silly' or 'ridiculous' on the face of it, with no further need for comment. Another editor mentioned that an entire server would be needed if all allegation about ISIL were to be included, but yet there was a claim (that I edited) that stated that ISIL sends terrorists to Europe posing as refugees; this was based on the say-so of one Libyan government operative, who happen to be fighting ISIL. Anyway, I really don't see how Wikipedia can expect to maintain any sense of credibility or objectivity with this kind of editing. I expect that my IP address may be banned from further Wikipedia edits for posting this comment, but at least this will (hopefully) remain in the Talk section (if you see no further comments from Kawika99, that is why).
here is my reference from Yahoo! News: http://news.yahoo.com/greece-says-considering-u-request-deny-airspace-russia-104110471.html Kawika99 (talk) 02:48, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
- It's nothing to do with IS one way or the other. Russia is massively upping it's military support to Assad in the wake of recent losses by his Army to various Syrian rebel factions, and the anti-Assad governments (Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and to a lesser extent the US) are opposed to an influx of sophisticated weaponry to a Government that they openly oppose. Gazkthul (talk) 06:29, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
This whole page reeks of editorial bias! Even the Infobox is the result of editorial bias and personal opinion. It's a mess! I would love to help make the article neutral in viewpoint, but at this point I don't know where to begin! Anasaitis (talk) 21:30, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
- Anasaitis is this satire or are you part of ISIL's cyber warfare operations? Legacypac (talk) 18:52, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
Another editor here complaining about bias, its not satire, and I'm only unofficial freelance part of IS cyber war division :)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.35.165.122 (talk) 00:11, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
You do realize you just put yourself on someone's radar right? VerDan (talk) 11:32, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
idc, anyway a notable place for bias to present itself is in the 'recent events' section. this is often added to by random editors and often with very poor and unreliable citations of events that may very well never have happened but have been recorded here to try to make IS look bad for example i had a look just now, dozens of events are sourced from a single website called 'iraqinews.com' which does not qualify as a reliable source and is in fact a propaganda outlet disseminating false news, another common website cited for news is 'aranews.net' which again, is not a reliable source and is well known as a pro-Kurdish propaganda outlet giving false news in fact the majority of events cited only these two websites as their single citation, it seems to me pretty clearly to be an orchestrated propaganda campaign by an anti-IS editor — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.35.165.122 (talk) 22:50, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
plus that section is too long, it needs to be a page in itself and have only a link from this one — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.35.165.122 (talk) 22:42, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
Most people on Wikipedia are unbiased when it comes to editing, just because they add something you or someone else doesn't like does not mean it is biased. If I murdered my mother and kidnapped the kid from across the street and then gunned down 15 people with a automatic rifle, people are going to use whatever *accurate* information they can, if something is professionally done and state sponsored it is a valid source. VerDan (talk) 03:54, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
- Most of us dislike IS. I sure do. This does mean we have bias, but we must strive to be neutral and not actively try to legitimise or de-legitimise them, rather cover the topic neutrally. I believe neutral coverage will lead people to come to the conclusion that IS is bad. Now, having said all that, can we look at this source and decide if it is reliable on this issue, and find a better one if it isn't? Banak (talk) 04:26, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
let me cite some things from the wiki page on 'reliable source'. One relevant line (under subheading 'news organizations') is "news reporting from less-established outlets is generally considered less reliable for statements of fact." Iraqinews.com/aranews.net are clearly 'less established outlets' and therefore less reliable for statements of fact
secondly, i cite the 'questionable source': "Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for checking the facts, or with no editorial oversight. Such sources include websites and publications expressing views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, that are promotional in nature, or which rely heavily on rumors and personal opinions. Questionable sources are generally unsuitable for citing contentious claims about third parties, which includes claims against institutions, persons living or dead, as well as more ill-defined entities. The proper uses of a questionable source are very limited."
it is my view that the two websites clearly constitute questionable source
lastly, as i originally stated, i know from my personal experience in reading their reporting that it is not merely biased, but consists of outright lies and false news in many circumstances and that both websites take a position that is explicitly not neutral — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.35.165.122 (talk) 17:49, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
its whoever edits in the information's responsibility to find reliable sources. what im pointing out is that the entirety of the 'recent events' section is culled from these two websites which are both unreliable sources. therefore it all needs to be removed and a responsible editor can put back in some of those events (the actually significant ones as opposed to fluff that is there now) with citations from multiple reliable sources instead of a single citation from an unreliable source — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.35.165.122 (talk) 21:28, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
- If you can find an unbiased source go for it, so far we are sticking to the websites that do not call for the death of infidels. That wasn't a personal attack on anyone. VerDan (talk) 07:21, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
like i said, im not going to edit it, but whoever adds the events has to use reliable sources, not iraqinews/aranews — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.35.165.122 (talk) 12:15, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
Khawariji or Salafi?[edit]
Should the lead be changed to: The Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham Arabic: الدولة الإسلامية في العراق والشام,[1] is a Khawariji extremist militant group and self-proclaimed caliphate led by and mainly composed of Khawariji Arabs from Iraq and Syria.
Also the article name is not Islamic State because Wikipedia doesn't label them as what they would like to be called by others so we should changed that also from Salafi to Khawarij which is what 99.9% of Muslim consider them to be and which they have shown by their actions to be that they are not just any Salafi Jihadist group but rather are in the league of their own. (See the references on Muslim position about ISIS in the article below). 217.23.5.70 (talk) 15:09, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
- No, because virtually no non-Muslim will know what a Khawarij is, and the term is not used as an adjective by any English language WP:RS that I am aware of. You have not provided a source to show that 99.9% of Muslims consider them to be Khawarij, but even if this were true, it wouldn't mean Wikipedia would accept the terminology.
- And plenty of other Salafi Jihadist groups (Boko Haram, Ansar Bayt al-Maqdis, Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan) have sworn allegiance to them, so they are not really in a league of their own. Gazkthul (talk) 22:56, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
- The problem is there is no single comparable word in English for Khawarij. Also the King of Jordan just used that word in his speech to the UN today. He was speaking in English. 217.23.5.77 (talk) 16:00, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
Well for one, they are not Khawarij. I doubt you even understand what the characteristics of the Khawarij are, if you did, you would know they are not. They describe themselves as salafi-jihadi and that's what they are. The reality is IS are Islamic. As the above editors noted, there is no evidence for your claim (one survey actually discovered 92% of Saudis thought IS to conform to 'true Islam'), and the reality that hundreds of thousands of Muslims in dozens of countries are fighting for them, supporting them etc shows that your claim is ridiculous.
And on the topic of the apostate "king" abdullah using the word 'khawarij', firstly he has no islamic authority at all, and secondly, in many transcripts i saw of this speech, the word was changed into 'daesh', clearly proving the previous editors point that most english speakers have no idea what it means and use of it will cause confusion — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.35.165.122 (talk) 00:08, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
Don't know what to make of this...[edit]
I stumbled upon this 'book' of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant group being sold on Amazon, entitled 'Know Thy Enemy: Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant' by 'Richard York' and upon looking into it, I found that the book is a near identical copy to this Wikipedia article. See for yourself: [1]
Is something like this allowed? I mean, I know Wikipedia is free information, but does that give someone the right to essentially print out a screenshot of a Wikipedia article and announce it as your own copyrighted work that this 'Richard York' seems to be doing? Does Wikipedia have some sort of partnership with this author? --Ritsaiph (talk) 17:31, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
Map[edit]
We need to update the map — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.194.229.152 (talk) 23:28, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
The map actually has been updated; it's just that no one's corrected the little blurb under it. The map itself displays the situation as of 22 September (at time of writing). 206.223.166.51 (talk) 18:38, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
Since IS declared themselves to be a worldwide caliphate, shouldn't the map be a map of the world with IS controlled areas highlighted? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cganuelas (talk • contribs) 00:54, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
No, because they don't control much ground anywhere outside the Iraq + Syria map. The whole world map would make this info very hard to see. Legacypac (talk) 22:15, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
Demographics of ISIL ?[edit]
Hello. I couldn't find any population estimate. Does anyone have one source for that ? Yug (talk) 18:14, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
Given:
- Syrian (whole) : 23M.
- Irak (whole) : 33M.
after a quick review of the map, I estimate the population to ~5M, not counting migrants leaving the place. We could build up an estimate from scatered data such as pre-war's provinces populations. Yug (talk) 18:14, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- Let's not build any estimates for ISIS population as that would definitely be original research. To make any relevant estimate you would need the following (all of it sourced): Original population in the area pre-war (as you suggest), an exact and stable estimate of the actual area controlled by ISIS, the number of migrants/refugees from the area (not trivial as the estimates of refugees in the region runs in the millions) and into the area, number of deaths/casualties (and births) since the last sourced estimates. Since the situation are extremely volatile these numbers should be sourced to reliable sources that makes these estimates not more than a few weeks apart (and the whole exercise should preferably be update at least every month). I have a hard time these sources exist. Arnoutf (talk) 17:58, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
- As Arnoutf said, the situation there is extremely volatile and lack reliable data. IS's forces are stated as between 30k and 300k. Currently, the reader has no idea if we talk about a country of 200k villagers or 30 millions people. We may certainly find a proper way to gives the reader a similar general idea and range of the population in this war torn area. By example by clearly citing "pre-war" numbers. Yug (talk) 21:42, 7 October 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:E34:EE77:8050:9CC0:10C1:B827:9DD1 (talk)
"Allegations of Syrian support" diagram[edit]
Per comments here, this is a deeply misleading diagram. -- Tobby72 (talk) 13:56, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
someone should just remove it, alongside all the 'allegations of support' sections this is an encylopedia, a place for facts, not a place to air every crazed fantastical bias it is a fact that neither qatar, saudi, turkey or syria have provided any support to IS, so why is there sections just to satisfy some conspiracy nuts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.35.165.122 (talk) 01:33, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
Timeline of events as a wikitable[edit]
I intend to turn the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant#Timeline of events into a wikitable. I can do some spreadsheet maneuvers to do that. I was just wondering, where should I do it? Apparently the list is updated automatically from other list... Huritisho 04:44, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
- It is drawn from the article Timeline of ISIL related events Gazkthul (talk) 03:57, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
- So, could I make a table there? I don't have enough confidence to do that because I'm afraid I will mess things up Huritisho 07:32, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
I don't see the value in a table in this case. But if you want to try tables why not use your sandbox? Legacypac (talk) 08:08, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
Suggested Edit: A new sub-section entitled, "What the future holds in store"[edit]
ISIS’s successes on the battlefield, both in Iraq and in Syria, highlight the failure of nation-states in the Middle East, and bring the Middle East into a new era that transforms existing order, and which provides great motivation unto other radical groups to increase their acts of terror in the Middle-East and worldwide. The decentralized but flexible organizational structure that al-Baghdadi implemented, coupled with the weakness of Muslim rulers in their respective countries, were the decisive factors that led to the sweeping success of the organization, while its decentralization and organizational efficiency made it very difficult for the West to deal effectively against them. The international community’s lack of efficiency (principally that of the United-States) paved the way for the expansion of the Islamic State, and by all appearances it seems that Jordan is the next target of the organization, which can easily become the catalyst that sets in motion wars all throughout the Middle East (Dekel, Michael, 2014: 3-4). The great popularity enjoyed by the Islamic State during the years 2013–2014 has brought enlightenment to thousands of jihadist youths from around the world who seek to join the organization’s ranks. This process, as of today, still leads many Muslim youth into joining ISIS, something that breathes new life into the ranks of the organization, leading to the proliferation and augmentation of the organization (see Ottaway, 2015: 3, 8-9). As long as the organization’s leadership succeed in maintaining its great momentum which it had gained by al-Baghdadi’s unilateral declaration announcing the establishment of an Islamic State and his proclaiming of himself to be its official Caliph (see Chulov, 2014: 37–39), and as long as it continues to maintain hegemony over the territory it had captured in Iraq and in Syria, the organization will only continue to grow.
Although part of the ISIS and Al-Qaeda ideology states that secularism is reminiscent of the jahiliyya (Period of Ignorance before the advent of Islam) and must be forcefully brought to an end through jihad (holy war), most radical Islamic groups incorrectly interpret the revolutionary vision of Sayyid Qutb, believing instead that they must spread God’s sovereignty by the force of arms, or what is called in Arabic hakimiyyah (i.e. the concept that authority, power, supremacy, primacy, governance and command rest with God alone)(Khatab & Bouma, 2007). Since the West is perceived by the ideologues of all Islamic factions as being "morally decadent," there can be little hope for a peaceful resolution in the ongoing conflict.
SOURCES:
- Chulov M. (2014), Isis: The inside story, The Guardian journal.
- Dekel U. Michael K. (2014), ISIS Success in Iraq and Syria: Strategic Ramifications, INSS, Institute for National Security Insight No. 563.
- Khatab S. & Bouma G.D. (2007), Democracy In Islam, Routledge, Taylor & Francis Group Abingdon, Oxon, London.
- Ottaway M. (2015), ISIS: Many Faces, Different Battles, Wilson Center, Middle East Program, Occasional Paper Series.
(If these edits are constructive, can we insert them in the main article? A good place might be directly after the sub-title "Goals"). ---Davidbena (talk) 00:15, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
This is mostly editorial content and a bit of crystal balling. I am not convinced it has a place at Wikipedia. Legacypac (talk) 00:23, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
- I respect your opinion, but what exactly is "crystal balling"? Do you mean "predicting the future"? I see it more as a common-sense analysis, given the obvious facts presently known about those organizations and about western culture.Davidbena (talk) 00:27, 15 October 2015 (UTC)4
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_crystal_ball is what I mean. Legacypac (talk) 03:47, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
- You've given a satisfactory answer to my question. So, in this regard, the end conclusions in both paragraphs are the problem (crystal balling). Is there any way that we might want to incorporate part of the other statements in the current article? If not, so be it.Davidbena (talk) 10:32, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
- No. The content is inappropriate. Please read WP:EDITORIALIZING, WP:RECENTISM and WP:NOTNEWS. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:08, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
- You've given a satisfactory answer to my question. So, in this regard, the end conclusions in both paragraphs are the problem (crystal balling). Is there any way that we might want to incorporate part of the other statements in the current article? If not, so be it.Davidbena (talk) 10:32, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_crystal_ball is what I mean. Legacypac (talk) 03:47, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
Updates?[edit]
Could people please keep this updated, since it's missing September and October in its timeline, what the air strikes currently as well. — 73.47.37.131 (talk) 01:51, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
- @73.47.37.131: The timeline in full is at Timeline of ISIL related events, including September, October, previous months, and last year. They are transcluded month-by-month into this article. If I were to take a guess as to why the last two months weren't included, it's so that clutter can be removed and new content can be looked at to see what is notable enough for inclusion. But that's a guess, and I actually have no idea why it stopped being updated. I simply assume it's for a sensible reason. --BurritoBazooka (talk) 04:06, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
Known[edit]
Hi. Relating to the following 2 Pictures it looks like the same person: Is this guy known by name or is he a high command leader: See:
- http://eastafro.com/Post/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/ISIS-Parades-Kurdish-Peshmerga-Fighters4.jpg
- http://f.blick.ch/img/incoming/origs3369110/6665563904-w644-h429/243FEE9100000578-2886034-image-a-21-1419413647934.png
thx. 2001:7E8:C0CF:4A01:A8B2:1A:1E15:9849 (talk) 20:23, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
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