Talk:Israeli disengagement from Gaza

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Untitled[edit]

Archive 1: April 2005 - October 2006

POV tag on 'Israeli opinion' section[edit]

Someone (not me) put text in this section saying "This section is problematic from a neutrality perspective; it chooses not to document the large-scale pro-disengagement rallies throughout Israel on other occasions."

I've removed this text, and put in a POV tag instead. --Apeloverage 09:09, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Change of name[edit]

This disengagement is alrady completed. I propose it be changed to: Israel's 2005 unilateral disengagement or Israel's unilateral disengagement of 2005. --Shamir1 20:57, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

pre-disengagement murders[edit]

There were two instances, I believe, in which anti-disengagement Israeli protesters murdered some Palestinianians hoping it would stop Sharon from going through with it. I was trying to find news stories about the murders, but it's tough. I'm still looking, but if anyone could find them, I think they belong on this page. A student of history 02:19, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Tali Hatuel and her daughters were murdered and some Israelis protested against the disengagement because of it. That is what you might be confusing it with. I dont see how the scenario described above makes sense.. Israelis killed Palestinians as well. I think it was a protest against his plan, an exteme, ugly, and digusting form of protest. I dont know how it was done in hope it would stop Sharon, but it was a protest. --Shamir1 02:16, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I found the two incidents I was referring to. I will add them here later. A student of history 19:09, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I dont think you listened to my point. It was not done in hope that it would stop Sharon, it was done as a form of protest. --Shamir1 20:34, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok, it was done as a form of protest, I will insert that. You are right. A student of history 17:36, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

"Current status"[edit]

I removed the "Current status" section, since it seems to refer to the Realignment plan. It contained the following:

After the Israel Lebanon conflict of 2006, Olmert announced to his cabinet that disengagement from the West Bank was no longer a high priority [1].

This info already appears in the Realignment Plan article, and the reference link is broken. 88.155.130.178 19:59, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Subsequent status of diplomacy[edit]

I'm not keen about having news updates posted in articles. On the other hand, there should be a way to concisely have follow-up information included as well. The recent posts seem too much though. --Shuki 19:14, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Not neutral[edit]

This article is too pro-disengagement. Its not neutral.AniChai 18:18, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Merge[edit]

Per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Operation Yad La'ahim content has been merged here from Operation Yad La'ahim. The history of that content, for GFDL attribution purposes can be found here. DES (talk) 03:56, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

interesting ref[edit]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=407447&contrassID=1&subContrassID=5&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

-- JaakobouChalk Talk 11:24, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Source problem[edit]

The quote for source #10 is to this site - www.palestine-info.co.uk - which is the english language website of Hamas. Hardly a legitimate source on the matter... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.193.131.167 (talk) 05:48, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

merge discussion of Evacuation (Israeli politics)[edit]

  • merge POV fork, but otherwise 'evacuation' was/is either a poor translation of 'lefanot לפנות' or an attempt to beautify the real, laconic and accurate legal term for removing people from their domiciles: eviction. In itself, 'evacuation' is widely used in describing rescuing people from emergency or medical danger. In that sense, using the term evacuation, is POV as in the Israeli government 'rescued' the Jews from Gush Katif when in essence, a political decision was made, the people were evicted from their homes, the land appropriated, and then abandoned. The people were not evacuated to safety. (In fact, they were made homeless). I do not ignore that the misleading POV term became widely used, but it certainly does not justify a separate article. --Shuki (talk) 19:32, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
  • Merge - content fork. Rami R 19:43, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
  • I've boldly redirected that page to this one, as it was a blatant WP:POVFORK with no pretense of neutrality. It didn't contain any useful information that isn't in this one already. Robofish (talk) 13:09, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

it was not "unilateral"[edit]

It was not unilateral in the sense of giving land because near the same time Israel Government overtook water land in some other location... I am not sure where... but my reference is what chomsky said onthe matter. IE, unilateral disengagement is a misnomer term. Sp0 (talk) 01:14, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you are talking about or if you understand the use of the term. If you have something to contribute, please do so. This page is not a forum.
The plan was unilateral because the Israeli government made a ridiculously one-sided move without negotiating or talking with the Arabs in the Gaza strip or handing over the land. Israel evicted the Jews, Israel destroyed the homes, the Israeli army retreated - unilaterally. --Shuki (talk) 20:57, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Source 27 Link Does Not Work[edit]

The link for source 27 does not go to the article. I do not know how to correct this. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.243.56.243 (talk) 19:47, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're talking about since the article is intertwined with proper references and URL hard-links. --Shuki (talk) 21:07, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Irit[edit]

I found this map and on it a small town called irit, which lies about halfway between Jenin and Nabulus and just west of Tubas, and I found that it no longer exists. I looked on google maps and I am sure something used to be at its location because there is a road and a clear area of forest at the end of the road the exact location of the supposed town. Was it evacuated maybe along with the disengagement plan? It lies in the area where the disengagement in the northern west bank was happening. Bezuidenhout (talk) 13:44, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Title should be "Israel's disengagement from Gaza"[edit]

"Israel's unilateral disengagement" from where? And "Israel's disengagement" implies there was some sort of 'plan', so you don't need that word. Or, should we change the following titles: "Occupation of Japan Plan," "Invasion of Poland Plan" and a whole bunch of others?Haberstr (talk) 22:05, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Well it was also in the northern West-Bank, so why not "Israel's unilateral disengagement from the Gaza strip and the northern West Bank occupied territories", bit long, but oh well. :) Bezuidenhout (talk) 22:28, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
I understand your concern, but 'disengagement' is not as universal a term as the specific occupation and invasion terms your compared it too. The two examples you brought up were actually more important than the invasion plans themselves, but in our case, after five years, it is still too soon to say that the 'disengagement' has superseded the controversial plan itself. Another reason is that there was never any disengagement planned (from the outset, the plan was merely to expel the Jews but keep ties with the Arabs there including improving its economy and infrastructure) and certainly never carried out since many in the world still claim that Israel occupies the Gaza area, as well as many pro-Israel supporters wishing it retake the area and return the expelled to their land. As for the northern Samaria area, Israelis have unofficially, and against the Israeli Army's wishes, returned to at least one of the sites (Homesh) and the army still essentially has control over this area, at least much more than Gaza. The outcome of the plan still has not been finalized. --Shuki (talk) 23:52, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
I'm inclined to reluctantly oppose. Israel disengaged from the Northern West Bank as well, and we can't fit "Israel's unilateral disengagement from the Gaza Strip and Northern West Bank" into an intro. For now, leave as is, but consider future names, as Israel may decide to one day unilaterally disengage from large parts of the West Bank.--RM (Be my friend) 02:00, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Reason[edit]

I think article (at the intro) omits a vital little detail: Why? It doesn't mention the reason for this whole thing. Just a sentence would do. 75.4.148.177 (talk) 09:41, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Three new articles needed[edit]

There are three full-fledged towns for Gaza evacuees in Israel now: someone needs to create new articles about them and incorporate them into the pages on the districts in which they are located. The towns are:

  • Netzer Hazani: Built for evacuees from the original Netzer Hazani. Someone also should change the original page to Netzer Hazani (settlement) or (village). Established on land owned originally by Yesodot. Read more here.
  • Bnei Dekalim: Built for Neve Dekalim evacuees, the name in Hebrew means "Sons of Dekalim". The community started with a synagogue, and is expanding to become a community of approximately 500 families, numerous educational institutions, and a commercial area. Read more here.
  • Ganei Tal: Built for evacuees from the original Ganei Tal. Established on land owned originally by Hafetz Haim. Read more here.

Any user who can pinpoint their precise location for an infobox, gather additional information, or get images, please do.--RM (Be my friend) 02:19, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Use of the term "Eviction"[edit]

The term eviction presupposes that the people were legally living there or legally owned property on that land. As much of the I/P conflict is with regards to the legality of the settlements, I feel like we should use a more neutral word to describe it. CartoonDiablo (talk) 00:14, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

-According to Merriam-Webster and the Oxford University Press it is quite the opposite of what you are saying. For accuracy purposes, next time I would advise maybe using a dictionary before spouting off a definition. Coffeegirlyme (talk)· 20:02, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

"Eviction" is the propagandistic euphemism used by the Israeli government to justify their actions. The more appropriate and neutral term would be "ethnic cleansing." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.139.236.31 (talk) 21:03, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move to Israeli disengagement from Gaza: there is solid consensus for a move and this title had the strongest support. Cúchullain t/c 15:38, 1 March 2014 (UTC)



Israel's unilateral disengagement planIsrael's unilateral disengagement from Gaza – Executed plan is no longer a plan. Should the minor part of the four WB settlements be included, it may be Israel's unilateral disengagement, or more accurately Israel's 2005 unilateral disengagement. Wickey-nl (talk) 12:14, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

After re-thinking about, I (still) think the term disengagement can only be relatated to Gaza. There were dismantled four small West Bank settlements, but the area remained Area C. Israel only withdrew from Gaza. So, only the proposed title will be the right one of the three mentioned above. --Wickey-nl (talk) 13:19, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

  • Support. Agree on both counts. I would drop the word "unilateral" though, it is unnecessary and is made clear in the lead. I also think it should be "Israeli" vs. "Israel's", but feel less strongly. Oncenawhile (talk) 10:33, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
The disengagement, or withdrawal, was per definition unilateral, as it was an occupation with only one army. Unilateral is a non-neutral term which is used to suggest that it was a generous gift from a peace-loving country. It should definitely be mentioned in the intro, but from a view of neutrality, it is better to drop it, indeed.
As for "Israel's", I don't know why it is choosen in the current title. For a title it is uncommon, so Israeli disengagement from Gaza would be fine. --Wickey-nl (talk) 11:13, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
By accident, today I found in a Jerusalem Post article the disengagement referred to as: "In addition, like in the 2005 Gaza disengagement, ..." --Wickey-nl (talk) 15:51, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

American opinions section seems strange[edit]

It's already a bit strange that there is a section devoted to American opinions on the pullout, but more concerning is that it discusses two polls with clearly loaded wording, commissioned by organisations which have strong points of view on the matter. I don't think that the section in its current form adds to the article, but I don't know enough about the topic to be bold enough to just remove it, and I don't really have any further information to improve it. --Slashme (talk) 09:45, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

"American opinions" section completely wrong[edit]

The two opinion polls listed in this article meant to represent American opinion are from pro-Israel or Jewish agencies, and their clearly loaded wording implies as a precondition for participation that each participant take a decidedly pro-Israel stance. Not only is this a skewed sample from sources that don't represent Americans in general, but in the ADL poll does not even ask the question, "Do you support Israel's unilateral disengagement plan from Gaza"; and the ZOA poll uses deliberately weighted language to coerce the participant into answering "no (I do not approve)."

The inclusion of this section itself is warranted, but both of these sources need to be scrapped and replaced with something more serious and credible.68.112.148.213 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 05:54, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Problems with the greenhouse section[edit]

There are 2 problems with the greenhouse section, one that I fixed and one that I didn't.

First, regarding the minor edit I made. I added "by Palestinians" in the first sentence of the second paragraph. "The remaining settlements' greenhouses were looted for 2 days by Palestinians for irrigation pipes, water pumps, plastic sheeting and glass, but the greenhouses themselves remained structurally intact, until order was restored"

Without that clarification, the sentence can easily be misunderstood to be referring to Israelis looting the irrigation pipes, water pumps, etc of the remaining greenhouses (after the initial dismantling of some by Israel), which is incorrect (according to the sources cited, specifically the mondoweiss source). On my first read-through, I personally misunderstood it as such due to the context and point of the greenhouse section (which is about Israel dismantling some of the greenhouses), and only realized that this particular instance of looting was not by Israel, but by Palestinian looters. when reading up on the sources. Please feel free to reword in a different way than I have done if needed. Perhaps "Palestinian looters" instead of "Palestinians" would be more accurate (I didn't do it this way because the verb "looted" was already in the sentence, seemed redundant). As long as there is clarification in that sentence as to the identity of the looters, just as it is made abundantly clear in previous sentences that Israelis dismantled some greenhouses.

The second problem I did not fix, as I'm not sure of the best way to do so. The end of the first paragraph in the Greenhouse section reads, "An agreement was reached with Israel under international law to destroy the settlers' houses and shift the rubble to Egypt. The disposal of asbestos presented a particular problem: some 60,000 truckloads of rubble required passage to Egypt.[46]" The problem is that the "houses" here are not actually greenhouses, but the domestic homes of settlers, which conveys an entirely different point from that of this section. Since this sentence is in the greenhouse section, and the sentences previous to it are all about greenhouses, this sentence can easily be misunderstood to be referring to Israel destroying greenhouses and shipping the rubble to Egypt. This sentence about Israeli settler homes doesn't belong in the greenhouse section - it only serves to cause confusion. I suggest placing these sentences in a more relevant section, or adding sufficient clarification, or removing them entirely.

Ezmode (talk) 21:23, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Read the previous paragraph, which makes it clear who did the looting.The Israelis 'dismantled' and Palestinians 'looted'. (b) 'destroy houses and shift the rubble to Egypt' is unambiguous. The rubble refers to houses. There is again no ambiguity. If you have ever worked in a greenhouse on a moshav or settlement, or anywhere in the world, you would know that they are not constructed in cement and stone, which makes 'rubble'.Nishidani (talk) 08:22, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

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Stated motives for the disengagement[edit]

I find it strange that the lede would miss vital information on the motives and circumstances for the disengagement.

@Milkawke91:, what do you mean by "controversial opinion"? are you saying that this particular POV, which is coming from Sharon's chief of staff Dov Weisglass, was disputed at the time by other members of the government? Al-Andalusi (talk) 15:35, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

@Galatz: how can you claim it is an WP:OR when a source is provided? The onus is on YOU to prove that the words of Dov Weisglass were not spoken in his official capacity as Sharon's chief of staff. Al-Andalusi (talk) 18:27, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

Firstly that is not true, you stating that he is speaking on behalf of more than just himself is in fact WP:OR. The rules very specifically state Even with well-sourced material, if you use it out of context, or to reach or imply a conclusion not directly and explicitly supported by the source, you are engaging in original research. By drawing the conclusion that he is speaking on behalf of the government is a clear violation of OR. The onus is on YOU to find a RS that backs up the point you are making.
Secondly that was your second RR in 4 hours, a clear violation of WP:1RR which is in place on this page. I suggest you self revert or you can be reported for violations. - GalatzTalk 18:55, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
The onus is on YOU to establish how the wording in the Wiki is contradicted and/or not supported by the attributed reference. Go ahead and show us that. Al-Andalusi (talk) 18:59, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
The article does you used as a source does not say he was speaking in an official capacity in his role. Therefore you have drawn the conclusion that he has, which is a violation. Therefore your RR to bring it back violated both rules. - GalatzTalk 19:03, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
Since when do new articles explicitly make it a point to state whether someone is speaking in his/her official capacity? quit making BS excuses and using alternate accounts (Milkawke91) to enforce the removal. Secondly, you made no effort to show how the wording in the Wiki is contradicted and/or not supported by the attributed reference. Al-Andalusi (talk) 19:36, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
Nice try, but that is not a WP:SOCK account, at least not for me. I only use one account, if you don't believe me then I BEG YOU to open an investigation into it, please do. Your rationale for putting it in the lead was his stance speaking on behalf of the country. Unless he is speaking on behalf of the countries official stance, putting it in the lead is WP:UNDUE. - GalatzTalk 19:47, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
So basically Dov Weisglass was speaking to the media in his position as an Israeli clown? Here we have a senior official from the Israeli side that is being quoted by a reliable source, in interview that leaves no doubt about the context of his statement...if that is not good enough for you, then this is clearly a case of WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT. Besides, what is the "real" Israeli POV anyway, if that's not the official one? Al-Andalusi (talk) 20:00, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
If you read the article you are quoting you would realize how ridiculous what you are saying really is. It says in the article "Weisglass, who was one of the initiators of the disengagement plan, was speaking in an interview with Haaretz for the Friday Magazine." It clear states it is him who is speaking, but is he stating the government stance? Is he stating his personal views? There is no way to know. If he called a press conference and addressed the media as a whole about the topic, then he is in an official capacity. But sitting down with a magazine and doing an interview is something politicians do all the time in an unofficial capacity. Its also amazing how quickly you dropped the WP:SOCK comments, I guess when one excuse doesn't work you keep trying to find a new one, maybe if you keep trying one will stick, good luck! - GalatzTalk 20:49, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
Hmm no. Not convinced why Weisglass' views are irrelevant here. Like I said, it is an accurate statement of a notable person that is cited from a reliable reference. You've got to have a very strong reason to dismiss the use of this reference. Rather, it seems that you are wasting our time with your own theories, claiming that (1) he was "shooting the shit" therefore it doesn't really count and (2) only statements told in official capacity are allowed in the lede. I do NOT see support in the Wiki policies to any of your made up assertions. Finally, why are you running away from coming up with the "official" Israeli POV? Al-Andalusi (talk) 21:30, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
1) If he is not in an official capacity it is not irrelevant. You can find a spot somewhere in the body of the article to put it.
2) It is WP:UNDUE especially according to WP:LEAD. It clearly states "According to the policy on due weight, emphasis given to material should reflect its relative importance to the subject, according to published reliable sources." If he isnt speaking in an official capacity you are giving the comments undue weight.
3) What makes it so I need to come up with a different stance? Just because yours isnt doesnt mean I need to find an alternative. Many times countries dont publicly take an official stance on anything. Just because the article doesn't show one doesnt mean you need it force it, it means they might not have one. - GalatzTalk 00:47, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

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