Talk:Israel Defense Forces

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No mention of IDF War Crimes/Human Rights outrages[edit]

It is obvious that pro-israeli editors wrote this article; what is even more blatant, the selection of photos supplied to illustrate the "benevolent" nature of IDF smacks of the Nazi hypocracy, "Arbeit macht frei". Not a single photo of killed and mutilated Palestinian children (more than 300 by most conservative estimates during this year 2014). SHAME on wikipedia and this article!!! — Precedng unsigned comment added by 186.9.167.17 (talk) 01:54, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Why does this article exclude any mention of atrocities carried out by the Israel Defense Forces? The Hamas article does not exclude violent acts associated with Hamas. Why doesn't this article talk about this aspect of the IDF? By excluding this aspect of the IDF, this article reeks of a Pro-Israel bias. I think that this should be promptly addressed. 72.174.6.46 (talk) 00:09, 30 November 2012 (UTC) i

I second this view. There is no mention even of controversy at all that I can find. It is not appropriate or balanced. It does not even link to any allegations or proven events. Wikipedia is supposed to be for knowledge and education, not politically censored. It is well known that the Jewish Internet Defense Force (JIDF) has been here in a concerted editing effort. Ministry of Truth. 129.78.32.22 (talk) 06:59, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

What exactly do you feel is missing? Can you provide some examples? —Ynhockey (Talk) 11:12, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

  1. Why comment using a anonymous IP address?
  2. Hamas is a militant group. The IDF are armed forces of a nation. As a result, they are differing entities and I frankly see little need to introduce a "controversy" section for the IDF just because Hamas has one. For the record, I see no section on atrocities on either the pages of the Iranian, US, PRC, North Korean armed forces. Of course, this is not exhaustive as I hardly expect myself to go scanning the pages regarding the national armed forces of ~200 countries.
  3. As a result, I cannot bring myself to believe that your suggestion is either objective or un-biased in nature. Good day. Assassin3577 (talk) 09:57, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Try this link for accounts of terrorist activities carried out by the IDF http://thenakedtruthinaconfusedworld.blogspot.com/2010/12/idf-atrocities-former-israeli-soldiers.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.241.222.56 (talk) 19:50, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

I had a quick look at the history section. Seems a bit odd that there is no mention of "occupation" given that has been one of the main activities of the Israeli army since 1967. More generally, the whole history section (6 paragraphs) only has two citations and the parent History of the Israel Defense Forces is also largely unreferenced. Dlv999 (talk) 12:53, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

You're right about the citations, but I believe that it's more important to provide detailed citations in History of the Israel Defense Forces, because this article's history section is a very concise summary. I think here we should focus on readability of the prose and provide the citations in the article that it summarizes.
Regarding occupation, it's not really relevant here. That's a political term which is way out of the scope of the IDF alone. There might be some things that are relevant here, but many are already listed—like the low-intensity conflict with the Palestinians, and the two intifadas. Regarding standard operations in the territories outside of the major flare-ups, they do warrant some mention, but then we should also talk more about other IDF standard operations, like the back and forth border clashes before 1967.
—Ynhockey (Talk) 14:56, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
Regarding occupation, I disagree with your opinion, but there is not much point debating this right now as what is relevant is based on what has been published in RS and as it stands we don't have any to verify this section or to ensure that it is consistent with WP:NPOV. I know readability and prose are important, but personally I am more interested in our core policies of WP:VERIFIABILITY and WP:NPOV. I'm going to try to find some high quality sources to add to the article and amend it where appropriate. Prose and readability can always be improved once we have ensured the material is consistent with our core policies. Dlv999 (talk) 16:21, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

I think there should be a controversy section added to the article, given the numerous UN law infractions committed by the IDF on the Palestinians alone. This should be worthy of mention because, as stated above, Hamas's page has listed its controversies, I believe that to be fair and balanced, the IDF page should also include the negative things associated with it in addition to the positive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.106.34.194 (talk) 18:45, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

It is clear the we have reached consensus that the controversy should be added to this page. However, Inkbug continues to rever my edits. The only contention raised about adding this section is verifiability and it is clear from reading WP:RS and WP:VER that the UN meets the criteria, but even to be more NPOV, I have been explicit in stating whence this criticisms come. Yaakov Birthright Franklin (talk) 12:20, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
Where has such consensus been found? three ips and two editors support adding the section. Two editors beside me are against. Since when is 5 to 3 a consensus? When counting registered users, there is a majority against adding the section. That is besides the fact that User:Assassin3577's comments have been ignored. Inkbug (talk) 19:18, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
Ynhockey was not strictly opposed to the section and his opinion should be taken again, given what the controversy section looks like now. As for Thus given the vote really to be 5-2. More so, Assassin3577's opposition is strictly that other similar pages do not cover controversy. However, that is not how NPOV works. NPOV is not based on whether similar pages carry controversy content, but on whether there is sufficient literature that is WP:RS that warrants its inclusion. Can you please state your reason for believing it should not be included? Yaakov Birthright Franklin (talk) 21:18, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
I think we can count User:Plot Spoiler as against, as he also reverted the edit. Regarding my reasoning, I feel that adding that section is WP:UNDUE, especially since no other national military (Hamas is a terrorist organization, not a national military) has a criticism section. In addition, the text of the section was using WP:PRIMARY sources (as opposed to newspaper articles on the reports or other secondary sources). Inkbug (talk) 05:52, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
Fine, if you believe adding a separate section is undue, I can understand that, but this information should be incorporated somewhere into the article to keep it NPOV. Here is a secondary source that can be used for the AI part: http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Rights-group-accuses-Israel-of-war-crimes-2757134.php for Amnesty International. However, if you read WP:PRIMARY closely, you'll see why it is appropriate to use OHCHR as a primary source here. Can you recommend a place in the article where you see inclusion of such information fit? I think it would also be fitting to link to Battle of Jenin article itself too. Thoughts?Yaakov Birthright Franklin (talk) 18:19, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
What about adding the following sentence to the end of the history section: "The IDF has also participated in a number of operations in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, including Operation Defensive Shield, Operation Cast Lead, and Operation Pillar of Defense; some of these operations have been criticized for human-rights violations.<refs here>"? Inkbug (talk) 04:25, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

I am happy with that. Yaakov Franklin (talk) 15:06, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

What about adding the following sentence to the end of the history section: "The IDF has also participated in a number of air strikes and bombing operations in the West Bank and Gaza Strip; many of these attacks have been criticized as human-rights outrages"? 2.96.126.160 (talk) 21:56, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

What does this mean?[edit]

"and has no civilian jurisdiction within Israel." What does this mean? Does it mean that Israel is not a military dictatorship? Does Wikipedia say this about the armed forces of other democratic states? Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 15:14, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Since no-one has responded, I have deleted the sentence. Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 02:11, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Israel Defense Forces Emblem[edit]

Can someone help link to this orphaned article? Gbawden (talk) 08:36, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

This isn't Facebook[edit]

When I looked at the websites for the IDF or the British Army the images that I saw were informative action, training or similar shots. The same is true for the British Army page. The IDF page has a number of posed shots as in present time edit here. One of the images was captioned, "Israeli "Netzah Yehuda" recon company in full combat gear prepare for a night raid in the West Bank". No they're not. They're posing for a photo. I recently removed the cute young girl image from the demography section of the State of Palestine article and am arguing that the similar image be removed be removed from the Israel article. WP:PILLARS presents the primary concept that encyclopaedic (informative) content be presented "warts and all". Articles are not the place to be presenting Editor inspired PR or social media type images. This isn't Saatchi & Saatchi or Facebook. GregKaye 20:07, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Criticisms section[edit]

Should we add one to mention events such as when Israel has taken (more) Palestinian land for the IDF? Danotto94 (talk) 18:58, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

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