Talk:Józef Kowalski (supercentenarian)

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Note[edit]

I'm at the point of WP:DENY with Canada Jack, but I will post this here for any good-faith editors who may be watching. Obviously, the community owns this article, and it was the community that decided that Ryoung122 is not welcome to edit here. One of the reasons that Robert was thrown the hell off of this website was his ridiculous attempt to insist that all subjects of longevity-related articles must be "verified" by his cronies and him, and without such "verification" all such cases are merely "claims". On his talk page, Robert has vowed to continue to edit Wikipedia by proxy by simply updating his sites. We don't write in Barack Obama's article that he "claims" to have been born in Hawaii because a few nutcases haven't seen the "proof" they have demanded. Similarly, we aren't going contradict what reliable sources have to say about Kowalski's age simply because the GRG haven't given it their rubber stamp. A perusal of the archives shows that Kowalski first appeared on Wikipedia sometime around 2007, at the since-redirected article "List of surviving veterans of World War I". At the time, Kowalski was an unremarkable 107 years old, and there were 50 or so bona fide World War I veterans still living. There was debate about whether Kowalski -not actually a veteran of the Great War- belonged on the page, but, to my knowledge, there was no debate about his age. Furthermore, there has never been any debate that he is a veteran of the first Polish-Soviet War. It was only recently -when Kowalski became the oldest man living- that the GRG fanboys began this "only a claim" nonsense. Regardless of the fact that they may not like it, we have reliable sources that confirm Kowalski's age. I'll repeat what I said earlier (and this is meant as a genuine invitation, rather than a defiant challenge): if anyone has strong sources that allege that there is controversy concerning Kowalski's age, then please present them. Joefromrandb (talk) 03:17, 22 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Joe. Your actions showed an obvious focus on this claim and on Robert's involvement, sorry for nagging you about this.
But this is not simply a case of the gerontology nerds wanting to do it their way - it is a case of what would be a verifiable claim being blocked by a family, and their appeal to the "verifications" from government sources, which are most likely a repeat of what Kowalski or his relatives supplied many years ago as his birth date. This raises a lot of red flags as it is hard to imagine why a family would who certainly enjoyed having him recognized as the oldest man within Poland would not also want this man recognized as the oldest man in the world and as the last man alive born in the 19th century. What they cited as "proof" isn't "proof" at all. Men enlisting routinely lied about their age, often to appear too old to enlist or, as what seems to be the case here, added several years to their age to appear old enough to enlist in the war effort.
Proof? Since the family has blocked attempts to see the original birth records, we are in a position of attempting to assess whether it is likely Kowalski was in fact born 2 February 1900. And, recent research shows that he likely was not. Here is the evidence against Kowalski's claim by GRG man in Poland Wacław Jan Kroczek:
I have to report this, that there occurred a big turn in research for Mr. Jozef Kowalski.
Mr. Kowalski is probably the oldest man in Poland.
For the last few months I worked tirelessly to reach him. Eventually I managed to look inside the very metrical books from the parish Wicyn, which are stored in Warsaw.
However, with full awareness of my words I report that Mr. Jozef Kowalski' s claimed birthdate of 2 February 1900 IS NOT TRUE!
And I finally have the proof.
I searched for the metric books from the parish Dunajów. I learned that Wicyn was an independent parish since 1888; however, the records of people from Wicyn were included in Dunajów books until 1900.
I was unsuccessful in finding Mr. Kowalski' s name in births as for 1900, 1899, 1898, 1897, 1896...
Historical Archives of Ukraine also sent me an information on 10 September 2013, that they haven't found Jozef Kowalski in 1900.
But the proof itself is the fact that I managed to find 2 brothers and 4 sisters of Mr. Kowalski. All of them were born in years 1893-1900, in Wicyn, from the same father: Wawrzyniec (Laurentius) Kowalski and mother, whose name was Rozalia:
Their names are:
1. Franciszek (Franciscus) Kowalski.... born 23 January 1893
2. Antonina Kowalska.... ......... ......born 4 February 1894
3. Maria Kowalska.... ......... ......... born 19 September 1895
4. Anna Kowalska.... ......... ......... .born 14 April 1898
6. Helena Kowalska.... ......... ........born 1 June 1900
The date of birth of the youngest daughter, Helena Kowalska, makes it impossible for another child to be born on 2 February 1900.
So it leaves me no doubts that Mr. Jozef Kowalski' s claimed birthdate is fake.
The family turned me down three times already. I think that they know or at least suspect that he is younger, that is why they do not wish to cooperate. Or simply they do not have any documents apart from ID card, which is not a proof in this case.
At those times it was very common for people and especially for peasant farmers to have many childern. Each year a new child was born.
E.g. my greatgrandmother had 9 siblings.
I include you the six birth records for each of the children of Mr. Wawrzyniec (Laurinius) Kowalski.
These acts are written in Latin, and are much easier in form than those written in Russian. It is because the village of Wicyn was located in the old Tarnopolskie Voivodeship, which was part of Gallicia (Austria-Hungary) , which lied in the south of the old Kingdom of Poland under Russian occupancy. In Galicia, the Polish people had the biggest authonomy. Because of the old traditions, the metrical books from this region are all written in Latin, which makes them much easier to understand as well.
To find Mr. Jozef Kowalski' s birth record, I must look for metric books from parish and village Wicyn of younger years. Unfortunatelly I was told by the archivist that the Dunajów metrical books possess Wicyn no longer. Since the year 1901, Wicyn had its own metrical books. Those books are not in Warsaw archives. I learned, that the last father from the Wicyn parish took the books with him in 1945 to Poland. Then he gave them to the people from his parish for safe keeping. Presumably, they are still in private hands. It does not makes it easy, either.
The metrical books of such value should be in the archives for everybody' s sake, for everyone who would do some genealogical research. However, there is a little chance. I lately contacted with an old citizen of Wicyn. He is passionate for his home village, he made an internet website on Wicyn's topic and wrote a book. He engaged himself in this task very much. I learned from him, that he has had a contact. A retired medicine doctor from Szczecin, who is said to possess some books of Wicyn!
I won't leave the trace. Jozef Kowalski, though younger, still can turn out to be a supercentenarian.
The day might not have changed though, so IF Jozef Kowalski was born on 2 February 1902 then he is WOM.
And if he was born on 2 February 1903 he is two days older than Dr. Alexander Imich, currently second oldest verified male.
The date 1901 is unlikely.
1900 is out.
I'm not so happy with my discovery, that Mr. Kowalski is beyond doubt younger. I hoped he really was 113 years old. But I believe, that what is most important here is the truth. Mr. Kowalski is sure to be one, two or just a few years younger than he claimed. But in 1920, he must have been old enough to take part in Polish-Russian War. He may be 16 or 17 on the photo taken in 1920.
It is the most difficult of all the cases I have faced so far.
The research continiues.. .
Wacław Jan Kroczek
GRG Corresponent for Poland
Canada Jack (talk) 15:22, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Regardless of when he was born, Kowalski cannot be the last surviving veteran of the Polish–Soviet War in any case because Alexander Imich, another veteran of the same conflict, outlived him. I have amended Polish–Soviet War#Aftermath accordingly. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 16:51, 14 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The citation offered for that is a local TV station in Kansas. This article cites the Polish Ministry of Defence, which strikes me as more reliable for this type of claim. I suppose it might come down to differing definitions of "veteran" - Imich seems to have driven trucks for the army, which might mean that he's being overlooked as he wasn't a combatant or that he wasn't actually enlisted. Hut 8.5 18:28, 14 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There are two further citations, one an article from the Forward and another a book. Both confirm that he was drafted, and a veteran definitely does not habe to be a combatant. The Polish Ministry of Defence simply overlooked him. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:37, 14 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, there might have been another reason why they disregarded him, not just a simple oversight. He may not have been Polish enough for them. I just saw that all references to Imich's Jewish heritage had been removed from his article. Antisemitic sentiment is unfortunately very widespread in Poland. You do the math. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 00:07, 15 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The citation offered for that is a local TV station in Kansas. This article cites the Polish Ministry of Defence, which strikes me as more reliable for this type of claim. It may strike you as being more reliable, but it isn't, as the above-posted information, establishing that the birthdate claimed for Kowalski is impossible, demonstrates. The list of false claims supposedly "confirmed" by government records, is very, very long. Canada Jack (talk) 16:10, 15 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Can we split this off into two separate conversations: whether the subject's date of birth is as claimed, and whether he was the last surviving veteran of the Polish-Soviet war. They are different. Incidentally the book cited is this, which frankly looks useless as a source for anything. Hut 8.5 20:46, 15 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It is very unlikely for Jozef Kowalski to have been born on February 2, 1900 as he claimed, if he had a sister born in June 1900. The he must have been at least two or three years younger than the sister. Kowalski was never verified as the oldest living man after Jiroemon Kimura's death in June 2013. However, I think Kowalski may have been the oldest living man for around 12 weeks after Salustiano Sanchez's death, if he would be born on February 2, 1902, as he then would have been 3 months older than Italianman Arturo Licata, but Kowalski might also have been born in 1903, which, however, still would have made him (barely two days) older than Alexander Imich.
If Kowalski may have faked his birth record, then shouldn't Gustav Gerneth be re-checked, in order to investigate if he also had a fake birth record? It is claimed that Gustav Gerneth may have been born in 1906 or 1907 rather than 1905. 213.65.211.63 (talk) 11:18, 27 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Would he have been the last man from the 19th century?[edit]

If his birthdate is correct and since 1900 is technically the last year of that century. Jiroeman Kimura, born 1897, is said to be the very last. Along with James Sisnett who was born in 1900.

Still, on the "living supercentenarians" page there are also three or four unverified or pending cases of living men who claim to have born in 1900 but they likely won't be verified.

Zz pot (talk) 19:14, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No, for one thing there are already plenty of other claims to have been born in the 19th century listed at Longevity claims and no doubt there will be more in the next 10 years. Secondly he won't get verified so it's a moot point anyway. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 20:11, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Just a heads up. According to the Polish correspondent for the GRG on the 110 club, Jozef Kowalski had a sister born in June 1900. So he can't have been born before 1901. So, no. He wasn't born in the 19th century. He is simply one of many men who claim to be born in 1900 or earlier. Check out Longevity Claims for more information. CommanderLinx (talk) 01:31, 29 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Actually he was born February 2, 1901 and not February 2, 1900. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.18.49.5 (talk) 17:32, 26 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Kowalski may have been born in 1902 or 1903 as well. It's very unlikely for him to have been born in 1900 as he claimed, if he had a sister born in 1900, then he must have been at least two or three years younger than the sister. He was never recognized as the oldest living man after Jiroemon Kimura's death in early-summer of 2013. 213.65.211.63 (talk) 11:42, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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Birth date[edit]

He claims to have been born February 2, 1900, but is that really correct? Does this man have any birth record supporting his claimed birth date? Or was he born later? 90.226.9.16 (talk) 12:15, 5 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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