Talk:Archduke Josef Arpád of Austria

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
  (Redirected from Talk:József Árpád Habsburg)
Jump to: navigation, search
WikiProject Biography / Royalty and Nobility (Rated Start-class)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.
Start-Class article Start  This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by WikiProject Royalty and Nobility (marked as Low-importance).
 
WikiProject Hungary (Rated Start-class)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Hungary, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Hungary on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
Start-Class article Start  This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
 

No, still not an Archduke, and no Crown Prices, Princesses, HI&RH, etc. either[edit]

There are no Archdukes in either Hungary, Austria, or Germany.

In Hungary:

  • in 1921 the Hungarian government passed a law which revoked Charles' (I of Austria, IV of Hungary) rights and dethroned the Habsburgs.
  • the Statute IV of 1946 regarding the abolition of certain titles and ranks, still in force,
    • declares annulment of the Hungarian aristocratic and noble ranks, such as duke [1. § (1)]
    • forbids the use of honorifics referring to ranks or titles abolished by this Statute [3. § (3)]

In Austria:

In Germany:

  • "Following the First World War, both Austria and Germany became republics, abolishing the nobility and all the privileges and titles pertaining thereto."
  • "Article 109 of the Weimar Constitution, inter alia, abolished all privileges based on birth or status and provided that marks of nobility were to be valid only as part of a surname. Pursuant to Article 123(1) of the present Constitutional Law, that provision remains applicable today."[1]
    • Privileges based on birth or social status were abolished.
    • "Noble titles form part of the name only; noble titles may not be granted any more."


In effect:

  • Both Austria and Hungary have legislations in force dethroning the Habsburgs. Germany has abolished the nobility in 1919.
-> No-one is a prince, crown or otherwise, duke, arch or otherwise, baron, earl or whatever of that sort of either Hungary, Austria or Germany.
  • Both Austria, Hungary and germany have laws abolishing hereditary aristocracy, with noble ranks and titles.
-> No-one can legally call himself/herself as such in either Hungary or Austria. The previous titles may form a part of the surname only in Germany.
-> No citizen of either Hungary or Austria can legally call another citizen of Hungary or Austria a prince, archduke or whatever of that sort.
  • Both Austria and Hungary have laws against noble honourifics.
-> No citizen of Austria or Hungary can legally be styled using ranks or titles of aristocracy and nobility.
-> There are no His/Her Imperial and Royal Highnesses (HI&RH) in either Hungary or Austria.
-> In austrian law, no citizen of Austria can have a "von" (= "of") nobiliary particle as a part of his/her name or style.


On the other hand:

As members of this family may hold multiple citizenships, German being among them,

-> it can be argued that their legal name in Germany is "X von Habsburg", given that this name is written so in their German passports.
-> it can be argued that their legal surname in Germany contains parts such as "Fürst", "Erzherzog" etc. given that the surname is written so in their German passports.

In the case of citizens of Germany, "marks of nobility were to be valid only as part of a surname".

  • In this case, as nobiliary particles do not denote legal rights and privileges, and but only may become a part of the surname of the person,
-> "von" should not be translated as "of".
-> Parts of the surname referring to noble titles pre 1919, such as "Fürst", "Erzherzog" etc. should not be translated to English.
Translating parts of the surname would be analogous to translating the names of US Presidents Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter and George W. Bush to German as Gerald Furt, Jimmy Fuhrmann and Georg W. Busch.
-> HIH/HRH etc. styles are not parts of the surname, and thus should not be used.
  1. ^ http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:62009C0208:EN:HTML OPINION OF ADVOCATE GENERAL Sharpston delivered on 14 October 2010 (1) Case C-208/09

Title[edit]

Umm it seems this was moved without any REAL discussion. There are about 10,000 dukes, archdukes, duchesses, princesses, duchesses etc out there (including on Wikipedia) of countries, principalities, monarchies and general houses of nobility that simply no longer exist officially. These are called pretenders to the throne. As long as it is verifiable that they are are along the descendents of the "royal" line, then they can keep the title. If it isn't legal, why do you even care? Sorry. Wikimandia (talk) 14:33, 18 January 2015 (UTC)