Talk:Jaak Aaviksoo

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Biography assessment rating comment[edit]

Needs more info on his personal life. Could be organized better. Very close to B but not quite there yet. -- Psychless 03:53, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Place of birth[edit]

Dear editor Maracana, I've observed the convention "city, country (under control of at the time)" for place of birth. Please stop pushing your blatant POV expressed on your own talk page in your own words as "defending" the USSR against those who would disrespect it. —PētersV (talk) 14:50, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, I can count 5 reverts during the last 24 h from User:Maracana and no word from him here (various user talkpages doesn't count), so it seems like like he's not interested in finding a best possible compromise, only to push his point, whatever it takes.
   Back to content - I'd prefer Tartu, Estonian SSR too. Infoboxes are meant to give to reader maximum necessary info with minimum words, so adding Soviet Union there seems overkill, however more factually correct it may seem to someone. Continuing that path, we can add there Europe, Northern hemisphere, Earth, and so on, all this is factually correct, but this doesn't give to reader anything to value. Ptrt (talk) 15:35, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, I started writing Tartu, Soviet Union, as I find Estonian SSR unnecessary in the case. However due to protest, I have added it anyway. The question is more if you, dear PētersV is willing to seeke a compromise. User:Maracana
I've already given you compromise by noting Estonia was under the control of the Estonian SSR Soviet political entity at the time. That should be more than sufficient. If you wish to demand respect for the USSR, please do so somewhere where countries weren't illegally invaded without provocation by the USSR while Hitler and Stalin were still the best of buddies. Were you aware, defender of the USSR, that Stalin's Red Army transmitted coded signals to the Luftwaffe to support Hitler's invasion of Poland? And that Stalin sent a telegram of congratulations to Berlin (a bit prematurely, it turned out), congratulating Adolf on the fall of Warsaw? Please study some history not written by the propagandists before you rush to defend a dead empire. "Tartu, Estonia (Estonian SSR)" with appropriate Wiki-links to all three is an objective and more than fair solution. PētersV (talk) 17:31, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
I see editor Maracana has yet again inserted his defense of the Soviet Union POV without discussion. —PētersV (talk) 19:14, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
I continued old thread in ANI, but I'm not sure whether to report him to 3RR noticeboard too, as we have here clear 3RR violation. Ptrt (talk) 19:37, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, editor Maracana has been busy:

  • 17:54, July 2, 2008 Maracana (Talk | contribs) (7,252 bytes) (Undid revision 223117328 by (talk)) (undo)
  • 14:44, July 2, 2008 Maracana (Talk | contribs) (7,248 bytes) (undo)
  • 14:12, July 2, 2008 Maracana (Talk | contribs) (7,251 bytes) (Undid revision 223081147 by Vecrumba (talk)) (undo)
  • 11:58, July 2, 2008 Maracana (Talk | contribs) (7,251 bytes) (undo)
  • 21:04, July 1, 2008 Maracana (Talk | contribs) (7,213 bytes) (Undid revision 222938125 by Martintg (talk)) (undo)
  • 17:21, July 1, 2008 Maracana (Talk | contribs) (7,213 bytes) (Undid revision 222881626 by (talk)) (undo)
  • 07:41, July 1, 2008 Maracana (Talk | contribs) (7,213 bytes) (Undid revision 222717348 by Martintg (talk))(undo)
  • 13:20, June 30, 2008 Maracana (Talk | contribs) (7,231 bytes) (undo)
  • 11:45, June 30, 2008 Maracana (Talk | contribs) (7,230 bytes) (undo)
  • 11:44, June 30, 2008 Maracana (Talk | contribs) (7,233 bytes) (undo)
  • 21:44, May 29, 2008 Maracana (Talk | contribs) (7,209 bytes) (Undid revision 215779465 by (talk)) (undo)
  • 14:59, May 29, 2008 Maracana (Talk | contribs) (7,209 bytes) (undo)

That Maracana's response to my indicating "Tartu, Estonia (Estonian SSR)" was an objective compromise was his latest revert to include the USSR demonstrates no inclination toward dialog. —PētersV (talk) 19:44, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

You seem to have forgotten all about the centralized discussion, so I suggest you spend your time reading it through. Your "objective compromise" is not even close to compare with any of the reasonable ones almost reached back then. Feel free to re-open the debate. And btw. I really can't take it serious that you write stories about Hitler and Stalin. Wether the state was a democracy or dictatorship is the case irrelevant. User:Maracana
There was no consensus achieved during the centralised discussion, certainly not for the form you are pushing. Martintg (User:Martintg) 20:19, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
To say that their certainly was no consensus for the Tartu, Estonian SSR USSR solution during the centralized discussion is a blatant lie. It is the solution that came far nearest a compromise. The only ones standing in the way of it were you and PētersV who stone hard never wanted to go anywhere with the debate. The same is the case now, where the two editors have made up their own "fair compromise", (their own suggestion) and one which gathered far less consensus than mine during the centralised discussion. User:Maracana
I repeat, there was no consensus achieved in the centralized discussion. Therefore the default is to seek consensus on the article talk page, which an admin has told you to do. Nobody here on talk supports your change. Martintg (talk) 21:08, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Where was Ene Ergma born? Also, somebody ought to "fix" James Joyce and Michael Collins as well, "according to the consensus" Oth (talk) 23:30, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Ene Ergma was born during war-time Nazi occupation (if I have my dates right), still counts as Estonia. According to pretty much everyone except Russia, anyone born in the Baltics anytime during the first Soviet occupation, Nazi occupation, and second Soviet occupation through to the demise of the USSR was born in an occupied country--so, still Estonia, Latvia, or Lithuania.
   Therefore, my offer of appending "(Estonian SSR)" here was--again--more than generous. Editor Maracana awakes to mount his defense of the USSR once again (apparently a resurrection of past activities), and I'm the one who "stone hard" doesn't want to go anywhere? If that were the case I wouldn't have offered the SSR. Editor Maracana is the one who "stone cold" refuses to give up on defending the USSR (his own words). Pushing that POV in articles dealing with the Baltics is little more than editorial belligerence. That editor Maracana doesn't take the history between Hitler and Stalin seriously just underscores the point.
   To Oth, I'll think on the rest (Joyce and Collins). :-) —PētersV (talk) 00:30, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Maracana has been blocked for 24 hours for his 3RR disruption. Having "Tartu", "Estonian SSR", "USSR" is redundant, since everyone knows the Estonian SSR was a part of the USSR. Having only "Tartu", "Estonian SSR" is inadequate because "Estonia" also continued to exist de jure and "Estonian SSR" remained unrecognized by many countries (for example Australia forbade any of its diplomats to visit the Baltic states). Normally one state generally follows another. However in the case of the Baltic states, two states existed in parallel, one de facto, the other de jure. This was a unique situation unparalleled in history, but a defining one, where the rule of law eclipsed "might makes right" in international relations. What the centralized discussion demonstrated was that there are many exceptions to the rule, and the Baltic states is one of them. Martintg (talk) 05:01, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

When and where was Aaviksoo born? The where is in Estonia, the geographic country. The when is during Soviet occupation, the historic era. (talk) 07:20, 3 July 2008 (UTC) Ergma was born in Estonia, the geographic country and during Nazi occupation, the historic era. (talk) 07:24, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


Re this edit summary: (Rv. Sources say zero about blue-on-white Finnish symbols. The third-party sources say the young crowds wore Nazi symbols, and anything else is OR / SYNTH, unless there is one source linking it. M'kay?)
   Please note that WP:BLP applies, especially as Aavisksoo's own reaction to the "reports" is included, regarding mischaracterization of the long-standing use of the swastika by Finland. Reports of swastikas as "Nazi symbols" must therefore be treated as alleged Nazi, as the report is drawing the analogy of "swastika" = "Nazi". There is no report of Nazi epithets, for example, which supports a conclusion of "Nazi" versus historical Finnish use. If the news article were about Hindu wedding, you would not report, let alone in an encyclopedia entry, that A & B, married on XYZ, did so in a hall festooned with "Nazi symbols"—given there is an older historical use predating Nazism. Going forward, please do not misapply OR & SYNTH to remove essential facts whose inclusion is fully supported, and whose deletion directly violates WP:BLP. PetersV       TALK 14:55, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

PasswordUsername, you reverted using your same accusations of OR and SYNTH without discussion here, howevever, I will AGF that you had not noticed my request here. I have retitled the section and appropriately attributed reports, indicating one side of interpretation, and restored Aaviksoo's reaction as the other side in the now titled as "Controversy" section. Both are required for balance. Do not remove Aaviksoo's response or its basis (historical use of the swastika by the Finnish armed forces predating Nazism) again without discussion here and consensus on further edits. Thank you. PetersV       TALK 16:28, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Controversy section[edit]

I should have read the JTA "source" a bit more thoroughly before - but I was put off by laughable propaganda: "ultra-rightists", "pro-German troops and the Soviet Army" and so forth. In truth the source does not make the claim that Jaak Aaviksoo and Trivimi Velliste were "accompanied by dozens of young followers dressed in T-shirts with Nazi symbols.", it says "elderly veterans from Estonia, Norway and Austria" were accompanied, "along with Estonian officials, including Parliament member Trivimi Velliste and Minister of Defense Jak Aaviksoo" (note the spelling - obvious mistake translating from Russian Яак). So currently we have misrepresentation of the source.

But the really funny thing is... that Jaak Aaviksoo never actually participated in the event. According to [1], [2], [3], [4], [5] (note: in this source, Aaviksoo's adviser especially points out that Zuroff was wrong and Aaviksoo did not participate) Aaviksoo was not at the commemoration, he did send a speech that was read aloud by others... but he never was there in person. I guess this shows the quality of the sources claiming he was "accompanied"...

So, unless there are any real objections, I am going to remove controversy section within couple of hours, as it is a grave violation of BLP. We could have something pointing out that "... some pro-Soviet sources tried to claim...", but I don't see it as a fact worthy of inclusion.

-- Sander Säde 06:58, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
It actually reads

"They were accompanied by dozens of young followers dressed in T-shirts with Nazi symbols, along with Estonian officials, including Parliament member Trivimi Velliste and Minister of Defense Jak Aaviksoo."

It's rather hard to take misrepresentation out of that. Also, a very good job on characterizing the Jewish Telegraphic Agency as "propaganda" and "some pro-Soviet sources." (Is that a great example of WP:OR or what?)
You can remove whatever you want, I'm done with this article. At the moment, I have better ways of spending my time. PasswordUsername (talk) 07:05, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
Well, if the Jewish Telegraphic Agency prints an obvious falsehood, then the world better re-adjust itself to its words, because there is no way that JTA did not check out the facts in normal editorial matter and just published something their correspondent sent from Moscow? They re-released Russian propaganda without any verification.
As for the "accompanied", it is fairly obvious that the source has youth follow the veterans, not Aaviksoo and Velliste. I will remove the section now, feel free to add the claims section to the article, pointing out the obvious falsehood in some sources. -- Sander Säde 07:23, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
If Aaviksoo wasn't there, that's fine. (Would you happen to have a non-Estonian source, anyway? Just interested - the international coverage seems to point the other way, but perhaps that's just Estonia getting bad press. Anything's possible, although WP:V and "verifiability not truth" requires that we simply present reliable sources, rather than proclaiming which one is true and which one is false. Wikipedia assumes nothing about which sources are correct.) I agree that the followers bit was misworded: for that matter, the original article never noted that the youth were following Aaviksoo; the Wiki article should have stated that Aaviksoo attended a ceremony where they were in attendance.
Though as I said, I have no standing plans for continuing with this article in the near future. You don't need my permission to add or remove whatever you want. (I see you already have.) PasswordUsername (talk) 07:33, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
I don't think the event was big enough to have much interest outside Estonia and Russia - similar commemorations are common everywhere in Europe - but Google translation is not so bad anymore. It seems that the RTR News was the source of misunderstanding, picked up by few English news sources. -- Sander Säde 09:46, 23 June 2009 (UTC)