Talk:James VI and I

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Grand Master Mason[edit]

King James I was a member of the Society of Freemasonry and was a Grand Master Mason (GMM) <ref] http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/biography/james_vi/james_vi.html </ref]. I'll find some other resources as well. - Brad Watson, Miami (talk) 17:11, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Here's another: <ref]The Secret Founding of America - The Real Story of Freemasons, Puritans, & the Battle for the New World p. 34 by Nicholas Hagger (Watkins, 2009)</ref]. I'll check other pages in this book and other books. - Brad Watson, Miami (talk) 17:33, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Wow! 13:34 EDT and someone with an agenda has already removed the info from the article even though I have two very reliable sources. I'll gather others and post it again later. - Brad Watson, Miami (talk) 17:36, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

There is no published evidence of any society of non-operative masons in Britain during the lifetime of James I of any kind. There is evidence for the existence of stonework craft organisations, which may have had an element of ritual in their proceedings, and had their origins in medieval stone-cutting lodges at castles and cathedrals. A good book is The Origins of Freemasonry: Scotland's Story, David Stevenson, Cambridge (1988), which identifies earlier mason-craft organisation recognised by William Schaw in the 1590s in Scotland, and explores the beginnings of later 17th-century societies which appear to be 'masonic' in character.Unoquha (talk) 20:30, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Your source freemasonry.bcy.ca also has this: http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/biography/james_vi/agreement.html saying that "Edward Macbean claims that the initiation of James VI, King of Scotland, is apocryphal, and it must be noted that there is no primary source documentation". This is the most likely option, since proper Freemasonry didn't really exist before the 18th century. Grand Lodge of England was established in 1717. 94.101.2.145 (talk) 22:23, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Sexuality[edit]

Others argue that the relationships were not sexual. James's Basilikon Doron lists sodomy among crimes "ye are bound in conscience never to forgive", and James's wife Anne gave birth to seven live children, as well as suffering two stillbirths and at least three other miscarriages.

I understand that James having written against sodomy is evidence against his relationships with men being sexual. But I don't understand why the number of children borne by his wife is relevant at all. Can someone explain? Marnanel (talk) 17:16, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Restoration of Apethorpe Hall, undertaken in 2004–08, revealed a previously unknown passage linking the bedchambers of James and Villiers.[129]

The article cited doesn't say anything at all about bedchambers or secret passages. Is this the wrong article or has the 'discovery' since been reassessed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.203.100.26 (talkcontribs) 06:06 23 July 2014 (UTC)

It says "Workers uncovered a passage connecting the pair's bedchambers during the recent renovations." DrKiernan (talk) 07:06, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

James writing against sodomy is hardly evidence of heterosexuality. Christians, even today, preach one thing and do another. This entire page is blatantly biased to protect the image of the bearer of Christianity's beloved King James. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.16.105.187 (talk) 03:24, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Neutral Point of View[edit]

This wiki reads like it was written by a Public Relations staffer.

This wiki needs a full NPV overhaul. It is ridiculously biased towards the official narrative, even though James's Homosexuality is, according to the wiki itself, generally agreed-upon.

There isn't even a criticism section, but don't add one.

This article needs a *full revision* that has NPV and evaluates the accuracy of the many claims made. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.27.169.152 (talk) 06:49, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Seems fine to me on both neutrality and verifiability. DrKiernan (talk) 08:52, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

I agree completely. How anyone can call this article neutral is beyond me. A full NPV overhaul is indeed needed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.16.105.187 (talk) 03:39, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

James' religion in Infobox - Church of Scotland; Church of England[edit]

This article (along with those of most other monarchs) uses "Template: Infobox royalty", which has a line for "Religion". My first two tries to add a religion for James was reversed without appropriate comment. My third try was changed to simply "Church of Scotland"; "Church of England", without any comment. My edits were intended to indicate that James was brought up in the Church of Scotland, and subsequently became head of the Church of England only as a title upon inheriting the throne of England. Thus, "| religion = Church of Scotland; titular Defender of the Faith of the Church of England upon accession to the English throne". Could other editors comment, especially those with expertise in this portion of history? Thanks! Facts707 (talk) 16:33, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Both reverts were accompanied by full and explanatory edit summaries. So, the statement that they were "reversed without appropriate comment" is false. As indicated in the edit summaries, infoboxes are for basic facts; they are not designed for nuance or complexity. Secondly, he was not Presbyterian. It should not be implied in the infobox that he was.
On the new issue, all British monarchs are titular Defenders of the Faith of the Church of England upon accession to the throne. The infobox should relate to James personally, not the monarchy. The parameter is optional and can be removed. DrKiernan (talk) 18:32, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
Like all subsequent monarchs, James was Presbyterian when in Scotland and Anglican when in England. I think the evidence is clear that he was happier as the latter. He was also presumably baptised as a Catholic, but removed from his mother's care before that could have made much impact. I agree the infobox should not attempt to say anything, except perhaps "Protestant" which is the key point (and, like his contemporaries, James would have failed to understand modern Anglicans who reject that term). Johnbod (talk) 20:09, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
Comments like "James was Presbyterian when in Scotland" and "presumably baptised as a Catholic" when the Scottish church was episcopalian for most of his lifetime and the article clearly states he was baptised in a Catholic ceremony merely demonstrate that comments are being made by people who have neither read the article nor are familiar with the history. "Protestant" is correct. DrKiernan (talk) 21:20, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
Not recently, no. I should have said Calvinist Episcopalian perhaps. "Protestant" in the infobox would fulfill a useful purpose. Johnbod (talk) 00:55, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Citations[edit]

The citations are at the moment a mess. I propose to homogenise them as was done for the articles Charles I of England and Charles II of England. -- PBS (talk) 14:23, 6 August 2015 (UTC)