Talk:Jazzar Pasha

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Additional information to add?[edit]

Merge[edit]

It is obvious that the article on Cezzar Ahmet Pasha is about the same man. As I believe "Jezzar Pasha" is the most common name, I will go ahead and merge information from that article into this one, and the create a redir. A problem is that in neither article are there any sources :-( Regards, Huldra (talk) 17:10, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jezzar / Jazzar[edit]

On the page, his name appears with the following variant vocalizations; are they context-dependent?

  • Jezzar Pasha
  • Ahmed al-Jazzar

Is this consistent with published sources? -- Deborahjay (talk) 12:57, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Jazzar is the most technically correct transliteration of Classical Arabic جزار, but for a number of reasons the theoretical Classical Arabic pronunciation might not have been the pronunciation actually used in the ca. 1800 Levant, or what Europeans heard spoken at the time. Jazzār with macron should be used when linguistically transcribing his Arabic name, but otherwise if he's most commonly known in English as "Jezzar", then "Jezzar" should be used consistently elsewhere in the article... AnonMoos (talk) 13:26, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Here (= Wikipedia) we're looking at running text which omits the diacritics after the page title. My particular question revolves around the different constructs I listed above (surname+title vs. full name). Is the discrepancy between vowels somehow related to the syllables' position? There's some internal consistency, which causes me to postulate and request this further clarification. -- Deborahjay (talk) 14:43, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There's really not much to say on the matter. The two transcriptions come from two separate sources. I don't know much about south Levantine Arabic (as opposed to standard written Arabic), so I don't know whether a rule exists in that dialect that would cause the word to be pronounced "jezzar" in one context and "jazzar" in other contexts, but from my general linguistic knowledge I strongly doubt whether any such rule exists -- however, for the purposes of this article, it doesn't matter whether such a rule exists or not. Simply refer to him by what he's most commonly known as in English language sources, except once when closely transcribing the Arabic alphabet words of his name (in which case Jazzār with a macron should be used). AnonMoos (talk) 02:03, 9 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

he is etnic Bosniak--92.225.37.61 (talk) 21:22, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This article's title should be changed to Cezzar Ahmet Paşa, or at least to Jezzar(or Jazzar) Ahmed Pasha. Cezzar, Jazzar or Jazzar(he was an Ottoman officer so I think Tukish version of the latin alphabet transcription should be used but how you write it is not that important.) İS NOT HİS NAME, BUT HİS NİCKNAME. İt literally means "camel butcher" and was used in Ottoman Turkish to mean "brutal,grim" His real name is Ahmet. And he holds the rank of Pasha(general) so he is Ahmet PAsha who has the nickname of "cezzar". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.97.70.240 (talk) 20:31, 26 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Jazzar Pasha??[edit]

This article's title should be changed to Cezzar Ahmet Paşa, Cezzar, Jazzar or Jazzar(he was an Ottoman officer so I think Tukish version of the latin alphabet transcription should be used but how you write it is not that important.) İS NOT HİS NAME, BUT HİS NİCKNAME. İt literally means "camel butcher" and was used in Ottoman Turkish to mean "brutal,grim" His real name is Ahmet. And he holds the rank of Pasha(general) so he is Ahmet PAsha who has the nickname of "cezzar". In Ottoman history, his name is always used as such, if it is different in other countrys' sources, it is obviously a mistake. So don't repeat the mistake and GİVE BACK THE MAN HİS REAL NAME! ;) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.97.70.240 (talk) 20:36, 26 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, the alphabet transcription practices "c"=j and "ş"=sh weren't established until about 1928, and so would seem to be extremely anachronistic for someone who lived in the 18th century, and whose area of activity was far from Anatolia... AnonMoos (talk) 10:37, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well aNONmOOS if you can be able to save yourself from details like transcription you will see that his name was Ahmet from birth and he is known as Ahmet Pasha throughout history. Caeezar or Jazzar or whatever was only his nickname. So this article's name should be Jezzar(or what ever transcription you see fit) Ahmet Pasha, not Jazzar Pasha! GİVE BACK THE NAME HİS BİRTH NAME FOR GOD'S SAKE!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.235.98.144 (talk) 15:45, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

On Wikipedia, we generally go by what someone is most commonly known by in English language contexts, not what might be theoretically most correct. AnonMoos (talk) 23:22, 7 April 2010 (UTC

Wow! That is sooo wrong on so many levels, I can't even begin to describe... Nevermind me; I guess I'll have to learn not to take Wikipedia seriously as a source of CORRECT information.

Did you look at WP:TRUE (scroll down past the first few paragraphs) and some of the links from there? -- AnonMoos (talk) 13:02, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

well I guess you didn't even read the Jezzar Pasha article. I don't have to give source, article itself already says his name is Ahmet. I admire the quality of the editorial staff in this bulls..tpedia. Keep up the good work! :DDD —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.97.181.0 (talk) 16:27, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I thought you actually wanted to change the TITLE of the article... AnonMoos (talk) 21:23, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Cezzar Paşa[edit]

Again, that spelling is rather anachronistic, because the spelling conventions or orthography used didn't exist until around 1928... AnonMoos (talk) 21:36, 2 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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Jezzer was not Albanian.[edit]

I have given many sources of outsiders, and even Jezzar himself (!) saying that he was Bosniak. As I said before, there are no contemporary sources that state that he was Albanian. Neither is the origin of Jezzar's family actually known. What IS known, is that A. He was born in the Herzegovinian town of Stolac, then a nahija and kadiluk in the Herzegovina Sanjak, in the Bosnian Eyalet. B. Jezzar called himself a Bosniak. C. Jezzar was known as "Ahmed the Bosnian/Bosniak" in the lands where ruled, as well as the neighboring lands. D. He spoke "Slavonic" (i.e. Bosnian), Arabic and (Ottoman-) Turkish. It is not known that he spoke Albanian. BosniakDefender001 (talk) 23:22, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As a Turk with Albanian origins in Kosovo, I agree. I actually just came from TikTok. I saw that Cezzar Paşa was called an 'Albanian' (or that he has Albanian origins), with a screenshot showing a Wikipedia section. I just checked it out in the Edit History... Even though I am Albanian by origin, this is complete and utter nonsense. A dialogue between Cezzar and Napoleon is famous here in Türkiye. In the dialogue, Cezzar calls himself 'Boşnak Cezzar Ahmet Paşa'. He for certain was not Albanian during his life. I have also not read or heard anywhere that his family was Albanian by origin. Fatihan Evlad (talk) 14:06, 19 April 2023 (UTC) Confirmed sock[reply]
Among many other sources, the two main specialist studies of al-Jazzar, namely Philipp, Thomas (2001) The Rise of Acre and Cohen, Amnon (1973) Palestine in the 18th Century emphatically note he was a Bosnian or Bosniak.
Philipp on page 48 says:

al-Jazzar was born in impoverished circumstances … in Bosnia.

On page 49 he notes that the contemporary Arabic historians al-Jabarti of Egypt and Haydar al-Shihabi "both agree that Ahmad Pasha al-Jazzar originated from Bosnia".
On page 52 he mentions that another contemporary historian of al-Jazzar Volney wrote that he fled Bosnia.
On page 260, he translates another contemporary historian Mikhail Mishaqa of Mount Lebanon saying al-Jazzar was "a Bosnian"
On page 272 "though Bosnian, he prefers to use the Arab language and script rather his own"
Cohen on page 20 writes "Jezzar was of foreign origin (a Bosniak)"
On page 284, note 46:

It is interesting to note that Jezzar himself was of Bosnian origin. At an early age he left his country; he subsequently entered a Mamluk household in Egypt, and had no contact with his fatherland. It is nevertheless possible that it was not coincidence that he regarded the Bosnian troops as the most loyal element in his army.

Further the Encyclopedia of Islam (2nd) entry by Kamal Salibi (Supplment, p. 268) also notes that he was a Bosnian.
The sources calling him an Albanian are all general histories, non-specialist sources and even two travel guides. None say he was a Bosnian of Albanian origin, just that he was an Albanian. In any case they are erroneous. Not sure where they got their information from on this particular issue as neither the specialist sources nor the credible contemporary accounts make this claim. The version from 8 October 2022, before the edits of an IP changing the long-standing information, was the last good version. I will restore that now and in short order incorporate some of the above cited information. Al Ameer (talk) 02:02, 20 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is what I was thinking as well. All of the listed sources didn't have any references to him being Albanian, or his family having Albanian origins. They just plainly call him 'Albanian'; they're not even mentioning that he has 'Albanian origins', like you said, and there are no references to other sources supporting these claims.
And from my personal research, there were no known Albanian migrations into either Bosnia or Herzegovina (Bosnia and Herzegovina proper, excluding the Sancak and Old Herzegovina) that were noticeable. And if you keep in mind the scarcity (lack of is more appropriate, actually) of contemporary sources calling Cezzar an 'Albanian', it would've been been impossible to conclude that Cezzar's family had Albanian origins. Fatihan Evlad (talk) 12:08, 20 April 2023 (UTC) confirmed sock[reply]
Al Meer, it is not up to you to decide which view is "erroneous" and which is not. Two views can be present in the article, though ofc it is unlcear even if there are two views. One can be at the same time of Albanian origin and Bosnian origin. In that case the Albanian origin being the ethnic background and the Bosnian origin being the regional background: i.e. "Bosnian" is not an ethnicity. As for the Bosniak origin claimed by your "specialist" source, it is heavily disputed in scholarship even if a Bosniak identity existed at time. The most widespread view is that the Bosniak identity emerged later among Muslim Serbs and Croats for obvious religious reasons (c.f. the Torbesh and Pomaks have Bulgarian/Macedonian origin but due to religious reasons have formed largely separate ethnic identities). Ktrimi991 (talk) 12:53, 20 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Ktrimi991: I reverted your restoration of the information, which you justified on the basis that the specialist sources are “not more worthy” than the other generic sources. They are in fact more worthy. These are the top scholarly sources for the subject. And they provide citations for their information unlike the others cited. For the record, there is no controversy or dispute as to Jazzar’s Bosnian or Bosniak origins. The only background info where sources are in disagreement is whether he was born a Christian or a Muslim. Albanian is not in the picture whatsoever. And the generic sources make no allusion whatsoever that he was a Bosnian of Albanian origin (they are not going that deep because Jazzar is a just a blip in their book). No need to include it because we found a bunch of sources claiming so erroneously and in passing. —Al Ameer (talk) 13:04, 20 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Do not put words in my mouth. I did not say that "specialist" sources are not more worthy than generic sources. The sources you are citing are not more "specialist" than some of the sources that back the Albanian origin. None of the sources is focused on Jazzar himself. At best the sources are focused on that time's Middle East. I am open to using a wording that gives both views: Albanian origin and Bosnian Slav origin. Btw, take a look at the Rollback tool policy and learn that is should not be used in content disputes, especially against experienced editors in good standing. Ktrimi991 (talk) 13:10, 20 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Even though I disagree, the wording then should be: 'Either of Bosniak or Albanian origin', in both the introduction and 'Origins'. Not 'A Bosnian of Albanian origins'. This sentence is implying that he was an ethnic Albanian living in Bosnia, which is not true, according to the vast majority of sources.
Besides, the ethnic origin of Cezzar's family shouldn't matter, as his mother tongue was Bosnian ('Slavonic'), and his L2 and L3 are Ottoman Turkish and Arabic. Nothing points to him being Albanian. @Al Ameer son, along with @BosniakDefender001, have provided great sources concluding Cezzar's ethnicity during his lifetime.
P.S. I have properly reviewed the sources claiming Cezzar to be Albanian. As said before, there are no citations nor references that he was either Albanian or 'of Albanian origin'. @Al Ameer son's version is still best and should be used. Fatihan Evlad (talk) 13:19, 20 April 2023 (UTC) confirmed sock[reply]
@Ktrimi991: Fair point on the rollback and for that I apologize. As to the content in question, the two sources, Cohen and Philipp, are focused on Zahir al-Umar and Jazzar Pasha and the four rulers of Acre (Jazzar being arguably the most important) respectively. They are as dialed in into focused on the subject as can be and are widely cited. Further, the EI2 article is specifically about Jazzar. I chose these 3 because they are authorities on the subject and we do not need to cite the dozens of sources which make note of his Bosnian origins. The other sources, which were misrepresented by users in the first place by claiming that Jazzar was "a Bosnian of Albanian origin" when they said nothing of the like (only that he was Albanian) cannot be used to “balance” against these specialist sources. It is laughable that we would use them for this purpose. I don’t care if he was an Albanian or a Bosnian and have no dog in this dispute, only a respect for quality scholarship which will determine the information in the article. To the others' point, this is not a compromise situation. The sources do not dispute his background, it’s simply poor sources vs high quality sources for the subject. Al Ameer (talk) 13:31, 20 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No worries about the Rollback issue. Works by University of Oxford and University of Chicago are not "poor sources". Emmett 2012 is a work about the Muslim-Christian relations during history in the region, including those relation during the Ottoman period. Jidejian 1973 is a work about the history of Beirut. And so on with the other sources. These are not sources without a clue. They can not be disregarded as "poor sources". The fact that so many sources by well-known reliable publishers say that Jazzar Pasha was of Albanian origin means that that view is not to be ignored, and certainly will not be ignored. That those sources are all wrong and should be ignored is just your opinion. Ktrimi991 (talk) 13:48, 20 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
For example, the Mimar Sinan article has 5 views on his ethnic origin. For such people it is impossible to find their origin with certainty, let alone judge which sources are right and which ones should be excluded. It is a matter of guessing, Bosnia was a multhiethnic area (and continues to be). Ktrimi991 (talk) 13:54, 20 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We are starting to go in circles. It's not about my opinion. It's that the sources calling him Albanian, while some of them are technically reliable per our RS qualifications, are still poor sources for this article when there are several others which discuss the subject at length. As editors we need to rely on the relevant literature and ensure information that we add derives from high-quality reliable sources about the subject at hand. The works of Cohen, Philipp, Salibi are practically devoted to al-Jazzar (and the rulers of Acre in 1750–1830) and there are so many more which discuss al-Jazzar at length and which are cited in this article that also note his Bosnian origin, including Dick Douwes (2000) p. 112, Stefan Winter (2010) p. 139, William Harris (2010) p. 121, all of which discuss al-Jazzar at length, while the sources you are defending only mention al-Jazzar in passing. It would be bad judgement on our part to compare these groups of sources. Here's a quick breakdown of the sources being cited for the 'other side':
  1. Of all the sources used for the Albanian claim, Emmett is the only one worth citing in this article but only for how Christians in Nazareth fared under his rule in comparison to his predecessor, because that is what Emmett's work is dealing with (Christian and Muslims in Nazareth). In fact, I already cited him in the article for this. He only mentions al-Jazzar on one page...
  2. Syria and the Lebanon (1942) is an outdated general history of Syria and Lebanon and only mentions al-Jazzar once.
  3. The Holy Land: An Oxford Archaeological Guide from Earliest Times to 1700 is a general survey of archaeology of the Holy Land from ancient to early Ottoman times: it mentions Jazzar in passing four or five times when discussing monuments in Acre he founded or worked on.
  4. Cities of the Middle East and North Africa: A Historical Encyclopedia is exactly that, a general history about the histories of various MENA cities, including Acre, certainly not comparable to scholars who devote their works to the subject. For the record on this source, it erroneously calls Jazzar an "Albanian Mamluk"; he was not a mamluk (manumitted slave soldier), but worked under the Mamluk rulers of Egypt and later employed mamluks as key elements of his own rule in Acre.
  5. Nina Jidejian is an author of Lebanese archaeology and not a specialist in this subject area.
  6. I do not know what Corpus nummorum palaestinensium is, but it only mentions Jazzar twice.
  7. Finally, Sailors in the Holy Land: The 1848 American Expedition to the Dead Sea and the Search for Sodom and Gomorrah only mentions Jazzar once and frankly I don't see how this source is reliable in any case.
I hope everyone can see my point here. The way the argument is being presented, that there is some kind of dispute or multiple views about his origins, perhaps like with Mimar, is a false comparison. There is absolutely no dispute among both the modern scholars and the main primary sources dealing with al-Jazzar regarding his origins; they are all in agreement that he was a "Bosnian" or (less commonly) a "Bosniak", that he came from Bosnia, could speak Bosnian, called himself and was referred to as "the Bosnian", considered his Bosnian troops and bodyguards (as opposed to his Arna'ut/Albanian, Dalat/Kurdish, Bedouin, Maghrebis and even his trusted Georgian mamluks) to be the most loyal to him personally, due to their shared background. The multi-ethnic origins of people in Bosnia, then and now, as with so many other regions, is not material here because none of the sources are discussing this, only we are on Wikipedia and to continue on that specific path would get into original research. That some sources which mention al-Jazzar only once or a couple times in passing call him an Albanian is a clear error on their part (or just plain lazy research) and seasoned editors should be able to make an easy judgment call on it when presented with how the high-quality sources about the subject treat the matter. If such sources were absent, then by all means, let's have all the claims in the world, but that is not the case here. Al Ameer (talk) 16:25, 20 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have also seen "Albanian" in sources, but they are all very weak. The strong sources support Bosnian much better. Although I would not rely much on it, I'll mention that the contemporary account of Volney says he came from Bosnia and his native tongue was Selavonian. The only thing I'm not sure about is what "Bosnia" meant exactly in those times. Zerotalk 19:33, 20 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Zero0000. The modern scholars on the subject do not elaborate much or at all on this point, i.e. whether we are talking Bosnian in an 'ethnic' or just geographic sense, and what does 'Bosnia' mean in this case. The reason, of course, is because they do not know, the primary sources did not provide these details. A disclaimer could potentially be added in a footnote but the problem is none of the sources discuss or debate this point; to my knowledge, it's only here where we are having the discussion, so such a disclaimer would be unsourced. Because this is all we have, the main text should simply state that he was a Bosnian and/or came from Bosnia. As for the Albanian label, I have not seen this until it came to my attention because of the recent edit-warring here and even then only in the (very) weak sources outlined above (plus a couple travel guides that were removed as citations today). I have no idea where these sources pulled 'Albanian' from. Clearly, they are not getting it from the primary/contemporary sources (al-Jabarti, al-Shihabi, Mishaqa, Volney) or the seminal modern studies on al-Jazzar, namely Cohen and Philipp. Are you aware of any other important works on the subject (besides those two authors and Salibi, Douwes, Winter, even Harris) which have not been consulted? Al Ameer (talk) 20:22, 20 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Since you are mentioning the primary sources in every post, can you give quotes from them here? I would like to read what they say about Jazzar Pasha. "From Bosnia" and "Bosnian" is not in an ethnic context, because there was no Bosnian ethnicity at the time (even now Bosnians are ethnically divided into Bosniaks, Serbs and Croatians. The "Bosnian language" is just a 20th century stardartization of Serbo-Croatian). More precise sources of the time refer to other Bosnians in an ethnic context. For instance, Sokollu Mehmed Pasha from Bosnia is described as an ethnic Serb. Ktrimi991 (talk) 11:00, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I read some short quotes to primary sources above. They refer to him just in a regional context i.e. a Bosnian and his langugage as "Bosnian" i.e. Serbo-Croatian. On the other hand the fact that many modern sources describe him as a Bosniak or Albanian can't be simply dismissed. Maybe the article should say sth along the lines "Contemporary sources say that Jazzar Pasha was from Bosnia and spoke Bosnian. In modern works he is described as a Bosnian, Bosniak or Albanian". Some relevant quotes from contemporary sources could added to the article too. Ktrimi991 (talk) 11:21, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Jazzars origins and obvious Albanian POV pushing[edit]

Jazzar was not born in the town of Stolac. Safvet Beg Bašagić which is objectively the best native source on this subject (from neighbouring Nevesinje) writes that he was born in Fatnica, (Modern day Bileća, which then was a part of Stolac. He writes that Ahmed hails from the Pervan family. Which would make his birth name Ahmed Pervan. It is surprising to me that this was never mentioned in this Wikipedia since this is usually a mentioned fact in Bosnian texts about him. This is mentioned i his book Znameniti Hrvati - Bošnjaci i Hercegovci u Turskoj carevini (Illustrious Croats - Bosniaks and Herzegovinians in the Ottoman empire) (1931). This is also a known fact among Bosniaks that hail from the Eastern Herzegovinian Muslim belt that stretches from north of Bileća to Nevesinje.


Secondly, i don't see any reason for me to motivate why Ahmed was a Bosniak/Bosnian or whatever, and not a Albanian. The talk topic above me already talks about this.


My problem lies in the organized destruction of the wikipage, randomly, a bunch of obviously Albanian users show up. Make a edit and then protect their edit from everybody else. Someone that often looks at Balkan related Wikipedia pages will also recognize the names of some of these users.


I'm not the best at Wikipedia. I'm asking others if there is a way to get someone "higher up" involved. Because i believe that anyone with a ounce of objectivity will be honest and recognize what has happened here. Rijekaneretva (talk) 13:33, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What exactly are you alluding to? Be specific please. Alltan (talk) 14:33, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Relying on a single source and a non-historian Bosniak writer is insufficient to substantiate his ethnicity. In Chad F. Emmett's book 'Beyond the Basilica: Christians and Muslims in Nazareth,' he mentions 'Ahmad pasha, an Albanian soldier known as al-Jazzar'[1]. Additionally, Michael Dumper and Bruce Stanley, in 'Cities in the Middle East and North Africa,' refer to 'an Albanian Mamluk named Ahmad Pasha al-Jazzar'[2], while Faye Day in 'Every Nook and Cranny' states that 'Today's Akko was built by an Albanian, Ahmad, who became Turkish pasha Al-Jazzar'[3]. These are just a few of the sources available, and more can be provided to support this argument. Based.shqiptar.frompirok (talk) 12:10, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Emmett, Chad F. (2012-04-26). Beyond the Basilica: Christians and Muslims in Nazareth. University of Chicago Press. ISBN 978-0-226-92249-2.
  2. ^ Dumper, Michael Richard Thomas; Stanley, Bruce (2006-11-16). Cities of the Middle East and North Africa: A Historical Encyclopedia. Bloomsbury Publishing USA. ISBN 978-1-57607-920-1.
  3. ^ Day, Faye (2017-12-15). Every Nook and Cranny: Book 2. Xlibris Corporation. ISBN 978-1-5245-1575-1.

Ethnicity[edit]

The assertion that Ahmed Pasha was of Bosnian origin is primarily found in Bosniak-biased sources. One of the primary arguments often cited by Bosniaks is that some sources refer to Ahmad as Bosnian or from Bosnia. However, it's crucial to recognize that there is no distinct Bosnian ethnicity. Instead, the term "Bosnian" refers to a person from the region of Bosnia. This distinction is evident when considering the existence of Bosnian Serbs, Bosnian Croats, and Bosniaks.

Among the few sources that attribute an ethnicity to Ahmed, the majority identify him as Albanian. A common claim used by Bosniaks to claim his Bosnian origin is based on the writings of Safvet-beg Bašagić, who suggests that Ahmad was born in the village of Fatnica. However, it's important to note that Safvet-beg Bašagić was not a historian but rather a writer. Interestingly, his account remains the sole source to propose this theory.

Here is my evidence, which is grounded in verifiable facts and is free from the influence of biased authors.

The University of Minnesota in 1929 published "The Encyclopedia Britannica Volume 17" and on page 130, Ahmed Pasha al-Jazzar was called "an Albanian slave,"[1]

the University of Michigan in 1954 published "Isreal" and on page it mentions how Ahmad was in command of an Albanian Corps[2] which is in itself is evidence of Ahmad being able to speak Albanian since in the Ottoman Empire if there was a military unit full of mostly the same ethnicity the Ottoman higher-ups would put that Corps under the command of an officer who would easily communicate with them, Muhammad Ali Pasha of Egypt is a perfect example.

In "Cities of the Middle East and North Africa," which was published in 2007 by Bloomsbury Publishing on page 6, it says "leadership of an Albanian Mamluk named Ahmed Pasha al-Jazzar"[3]

in 2008 Oxford published "The Holy Land" on page 180 it calls Ahmed "an Albanian soldier"[4]

the University of Chicago Press published in 2012 "Beyond the Basilica" on page 23, it mentions again Ahmed as being "an Albanian soldier"[5]

in 2010, the Indiana University published "Israel & the Palestinian Territories" on page 244, it calls Ahmed "an Albanian mercenary"[6]

in 1941, the government of Palestine, Department of Antiquities published "Guide to Acre" on page 50, it calls Ahmed "The Albanian adventurer"[7]

in 2017 Xlibris AU published "Every Nook and Cranny Book 2" on page called Akko, it says "Today's Akko was built by an Albanian, Ahmad, who became Turkish pasha Al-Jazzar"[8]

in 2005, the Naval Institute Press published "Sailors in the Holy Land" on page 115, it calls Ahmed "an Albanian adventurer" again[9]

in 1961, the University of California published "Corpus nummorum palaestinensium Volume 4" on page 32, it calls Ahmed again "another adventurer, this time is an Albanian"[10]

in 1974, the University of Michigan published "Beirut Throughout the Ages" on page 99, it calls Ahmed again "another adventure, an Albanian called Ahmed al-Jazzer"[11]

in 1911, the University Press published "The Encyclopædia Britannica: Ode-Payment of Members" on page 624, it mentions Ahmed as "an Albanian slave"[12]

Considering this array of references and their consistent attribution of Ahmed Pasha's ethnicity as Albanian, it is evident that the weight of evidence supports his Albanian origin. Based.shqiptar.frompirok (talk) 10:42, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It really is annoying that this topic has been brought up once again.
What you've done is went on Google Books and typed "Ahmed Pasha al Jazzar Albanian" and used every source you could. I can do the same thing Ahmed Pasha Al Jazzar Bosnian and you'll get a bunch of sources not supporting your side.
Various sources claiming him as being Albanian stem from him leading various Albanian speaking Mamluk companies. Not because his ethnic identity was Albanian. All these sources mention Albanian as if it's on a whim, just simply stating "Albanian adventurer" etc. While sources going in-depth into his background mention that he's of Bosnian descent. Such as the sources that were already present in the Origins section of the page.
Safvet-Beg Bašagić is a perfectly fine source to use. He's a native to the same region as Ahmed Pasha Al Jazzar. And is the only person to date that has given us a name, a family and a precise location of birth. Him being a "Writer" doesn't really change much. On his own wiki page he's described as "a collector, literary, journalist, poet, translator, professor, bibliographer, curator of a museum, politician - a Bosnian intellectual,"
The source used when referring to Safvet-Beg Bašagić is "Znameniti Hrvati - Bošnjaci i Hercegovci u Turskoj carevini (Illustrious Croats - Bosniaks and Herzegovinians in the Ottoman empire) (1931) which is not a work of fiction but a biographical piece.
As for you removing traces of Bosnia on this page, removing the names Stolac, Fatnica and Bosnia is just malicious. This is more or less a objective fact. The man doesn't have any connection to Albania/Albanians before his departure to Egypt and the Levant. You've been trying to suggest the opposite.
I suggest we end this discussion as it isn't logical and i doubt you aren't "aware" of what you are doing here. Rijekaneretva (talk) 14:03, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sources call him "Bosnian", but it's important to note that Bosnian isn't an ethnicity; it's a term used to describe people from the diverse regions of Bosnia. This diversity is evident in the existence of distinct ethnic groups such as Bosnian Serbs, Bosnian Croats, and Bosniaks. Have you ever wondered why these distinct identities exist? When evaluating the reliability of sources, it's crucial to examine their credentials and affiliations. If you look at my sources, you'll find that most of them are from reputable universities, and one even comes from the Palestinian government. In contrast, the sources referring to him as Bosnian often come from unknown publishers. Safvet-beg Bašagić, was not a historian but a writer, and despite what may be mentioned on his Wikipedia page, his theories about Ahmed's surname and hometown lack sufficient support from other reputable sources. Bašagić appears to be the sole proponent of the claim that Ahmed's surname is 'Pervan' and that he hails from Fatnica. Based.shqiptar.frompirok (talk) 19:42, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Based.shqiptar.frompirok Sources call him Bosnian because the man was from a time where ethnic identities didn't exist in the same way that they do today. If your problem is that the regional term Bosnian is being used for a man from Herzegovina then you can say that.
What you (and others) have been trying to do is to asrcibe an Albanian ethnic identity to a man that doesn't have anything to do with Albanians in his early life.
I still don't get your argument about Bašagić, yes the guy was a writer, he wrote biographies. He's literally from the region and just so happens to be the only person to ever give us a name and a village.
I don't understand where this attempt to make Jazzar a Albanian even comes from, i've only seen this on the internet in 2022-2023. It seems to be a Internet/Wikipedia thing rather than a thing that Albanian historians have proposed, there's literally no knowledge or mention of this man in any part of the Albanian society.
Again, this is a malicious attempt to destroy a Wikipedia page. You've erased both mentions of Stolac, Fatnica and Bosnia and Herzegovina and replaced it with a vague sentence saying that he's "of Albanian origin'
You've literally replaced sources that go in depth into his early life and origin, from his birthplace to the reason that he flees to other parts of the empire. With other sources that just vaguely happen to mention him as Albanian. Most likely because, as is mentioned in this wikipedia article, the man commanded Arnaut/Albanian troops. Rijekaneretva (talk) 23:59, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The first sentence is inaccurate; ethnic identity was a significant factor in the Ottoman Empire. It's also important to note that being from a particular region doesn't necessarily determine one's ethnicity. Additionally, Safvet-beg Bašagić, was a writer, not a historian. The assertion that Jazzar was Albanian has historical roots dating back to the 18-19th century so it's not a recent development and if he merely commanded Albanian troops, sources would likely refer to them as "his Albanian mercenaries/soldiers" Instead, they specifically call him an "Albanian soldier". Based.shqiptar.frompirok (talk) 00:19, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I can't really cooperate with you when this is the message that you write back to me
"The first sentence is inaccurate; ethnic identity was a significant factor in the Ottoman Empire. It's also important to note that being from a particular region doesn't necessarily determine one's ethnicity. Additionally, Safvet-beg Bašagić, was a writer, not a historian. The assertion that Jazzar was Albanian has historical roots dating back to the 18-19th century so it's not a recent development and if he merely commanded Albanian troops, sources would likely refer to them as "his Albanian mercenaries/soldiers" Instead, they specifically call him an "Albanian soldier"."
Do you seriously believe Jazzar was Albanian, you do realize that anyone looking at this from the outside, seeing your username and your edits instantly recognizes that this issue comes from your nationalism and trying to make this guy Albanian. When, as i said, the guy has no connection to any Albanian before he leaves his homeland Herzegovina. Rijekaneretva (talk) 07:49, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
My correction of the page, as an Albanian, should not be misconstrued as an act of nationalism. I cited my claims from reputable universities and even a government source to ensure accuracy. However, it's essential to reiterate that outside of Safvet-beg Bašagić, who was a writer and not a historian (you should learn the difference), you have yet to provide any alternative sources. Regarding the "nationalism" claims, it's worth noting that every source I cited was published and created by non-Albanians who gained absolutely nothing from writing that he was Albanian. Based.shqiptar.frompirok (talk) 09:38, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Again, you're constructing this as if there's some debate about his ethnic origin. In your first message you write "The assertion that Ahmed Pasha was of Bosnian origin is primarily found in Bosniak-biased sources" is a clear example that you're consciously trying to create a problem where there isn't one. There are no "Bosniak-biased sources" when it comes to Jazzar Pasha. This is not a historical figure that is in any way controversial or a figure that has created disagreement among Bosniaks and Albanians.
I'm getting sick of this but let me reiterate my previous point again, and a point that was brought up in April of this year.
Sources claiming Jazzar to be an Albanian, do so plainly, just describing him as a Albanian adventurer. As i've proposed, most likely because the man commanded Arnaut troops and had contacts with Albanians after he moved from Bosnia and Herzegovina.
Sources that claim him to be of Bosnian descent, alternatively, all sources that actually go into his early life. Give descriptions such as "of obscure Bosnian origins" "born in Stolac" and Bašagić gives us his birth village and birth name.
It seems that youve stuck on calling Bašagić a writer as if that is some kind of way to discredit him. I won't repeat this since it's gotten annoying. Bašagić is a bibliographer and a biographer. He is a native source , which is a thing that you seem to consider to be a Pro-Bosniak stance, as if there is any historical debate or multiple stances on a figure such as Jazzar. Bašagić's account of him being from Fatnica seems to correspond to other accounts that note that Jazzar was from Stolac. Fatnica, which today is part of Bileća municipality in Republika Srpska, used to be a part of the Stolac Nahiya during Ottoman times. Again, Bašagić was from the region, and is, as far as i'm aware, the only person that has actually given us his name, and birth place.
The notion that a man born in eastern Herzegovina in the 18th century was Albanian is ludicrous. I believe that the fact that we have Bosniak sources about this man tell us something, you're free to link me some native Albanian sources that claim him to be born in Kosovo or something, so that we can review them together. Rijekaneretva (talk) 10:07, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Can you provide one source that even remotely suggests the author was referring to his ethnic Albanian troops rather than referring to him directly as "an Albanian soldier/slavs/mercenary/adventurer"? The source I've been pointing out as biased is Safvet-beg Bašagić. Since you're keen on looking at his Wikipedia page lets take a look, according to Bosniak historians, he is considered the "father of Bosnian Renaissance" and was elected president of the Bosnian council, which appears to indicate a degree of nationalism or patriotism. Writing biographies doesn't make one a reliable source. If Barack Obama, who wrote a biography, were to write a book today claiming that Hitler was from the village of Pirok, it wouldn't make him correct, even if he lived in the same century as Hitler. Based.shqiptar.frompirok (talk) 11:44, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Based.shqiptar.frompirok
Well you're not challenging me when i say that sources claiming him as Albanian do so vaguely, while the ones that actually delve deep into his early life all agree that he's of Bosnian origin, since you're not challenging me on this. I'd ask you to explain this strange phenomenon where these vague sources describe him as Albanian, whereas these in depth biographical analyses describe him as Bosnian. I've presented my theory, which is that these sources confuse his identity with the identity of his Arnaut soldiers, now you try to explain why this difference in sources exists.
I won't comment on Bašagić since it's obvious that this is the only thing you can go against at this point, i've already gone over who he is and his trustworthiness. Since you discredit this native source, i call on you, yet again. To provide a Albanian source, that tells us something else. Surely, if this man was of Albanian stock, and considering that this might be an interesting figure to someone, there'd surely be an Albanian source describing where he came from, his actual name, etc. Rijekaneretva (talk) 12:59, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You keep mentioning "sources" in the plural form, yet you haven't provided any sources beyond the one from Safvet-beg Bašagić, who stands as the sole account making these claims without substantial backing from other sources. Notably, he didn't include sources to support his claims in his book. Your reluctance to answer my questions raises concerns about the depth of your understanding of this topic. Furthermore, I have yet to see any substantial evidence supporting the assertion that he was a Bosniak, making this discussion more or less done and pointless. Based.shqiptar.frompirok (talk) 13:23, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Based.shqiptar.frompirok
What questions do you feel like i haven't answered? Rijekaneretva (talk) 14:47, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You mentioned that sources could be referring to his Albanian troops rather than him directly. Can you name a source and provide a specific quote where this context might be mentioned? And adding sources that are from adventurers isn't really reliable because you're basically trusting their word, but sources like books have sources cited in them which makes them more trustworthy. Based.shqiptar.frompirok (talk) 09:59, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That was my explanation as to why those sources would mention him as Albanian. Since nothing else suggests this.
If you want to suggest another explanation as to why he's mentioned as a Albanian you can.
I'll repeat what i wrote yesterday " I'd ask you to explain this strange phenomenon where these vague sources describe him as Albanian, whereas these in depth biographical analyses describe him as Bosnian. I've presented my theory, which is that these sources confuse his identity with the identity of his Arnaut soldiers, now you try to explain why this difference in sources exists." Rijekaneretva (talk) 10:02, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You keep on evading my question, which suggests a lack of a substantial answer. Specifically, when you mention "in-depth biography", are you referring to Safvet-beg Bašagić's work? If so, it's important to remember that Bašagić was a writer, not a historian, as I've previously pointed out, and his credibility is questionable. I also want to address a statement you made, "the man was from Hercegovina." It's essential to recognize that during the Ottoman Empire, Hercegovina had a significant Albanian presence. The tribe of Burmazi, for instance, maintained around 40 settlements, primarily in the Southern Bosnia region, particularly around Stolac and Trebinje, during the time of the Sanjak of Herzegovina. Based.shqiptar.frompirok (talk) 10:31, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Herzegovina did not have a Albanian presence during the Ottoman empire. And even if it did (It didn't) a writer that would describe Jazzar as Albanian wouldn't even think of the Burmazi since it isn't relevant at all. You're getting into scenarios that just aren't possible.
What i mean by in-depth sources are sources that investigate/talk about his early life and him. Examples are Thomas Phillip "Acre: The rise and Fall of a Palestinian City" The Egyptian Historian that lived during the same time as him Abd-al Rahman al jabarti, his texts often corroborated with what Ahmad Haydar al-Shihab wrote, who had personal dealings with Jazzar.
A Western contemporary source is Colonel Squire's interview with Jazzar Pasha from page 249-252 and onwards.
Safvet-Beg Bašagić is a fine source, again, he was a writer, he was also a bibliographer.
Everything i mentioned, and more, is listed in the Origins section of the wikipedia article. You're free to check it out. Rijekaneretva (talk) 10:51, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Your lack of knowledge on this matter is evident. Your assertion that Albanians never had a presence in Hercegovina is unfounded. There is literally a village in Hercegovina called Arbanaška, which points to the historical presence of Albanians in the region. Before the Slavic migration to the Balkans, Albanians inhabitanted these areas. Furthermore, I took it upon myself to examine page 47 of "Aja'ib al-athar fi al-tarajim wal-akhbar" by Abd al-Rahman al-Jabarti, the source you mentioned, which you believe mentions al-Jazzar as "Al-Bushnaqi". However, upon translating the text, it became evident that it did not mention al-Jazzar at all; instead, it focused on Egypt and the Mamluks. It's crucial to note again that Safvet-beg Bašagić was a writer, lacking the credentials of a historian. Moreover, the part that labels him as a "collector, literary, journalist, poet, translator, professor, bibliographer, curator of a museum, politician - a Bosnian intellectual" is not supported by any sources. Based.shqiptar.frompirok (talk) 16:27, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Albanians didn't have any significant presence in Herzegovina during the Ottoman times. This is what you wrote "It's essential to recognize that during the Ottoman Empire, Hercegovina had a significant Albanian presence."
I mean to be honest, considering the fact that you removed mentions of "Fatnica" "Stolac" and "Bosnia" before, and you're now reaching, trying to mention some medieval Albanian tribe and the Slavic migrations to the Balkans, topics that are absolutely uninteresting to me, and absolutely unrelevant to the article. Shows me that you've accepted that the man was born in what is today the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina, am i wrong? Why did you remove mentions of him being born in the territory of BiH before? Rijekaneretva (talk) 16:49, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And i apologise for the Aja'ib al-athar fi al-tarajim wal-akhbar source, i cited the wrong book. Adžaib el-asar fi et-teradžim ve el-asar page 47 is supposed to back up what i've written. I'll remove it. Rijekaneretva (talk) 16:55, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Albanians didn't have any significant presence in Herzegovina during the Ottoman times. This is what you wrote "It's essential to recognize that during the Ottoman Empire, Hercegovina had a significant Albanian presence."
Notice how you are talking without any sources? Illyriankajak (talk) 17:04, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
After conducting thorough research on the individual, I wholeheartedly support your claim regarding his ethnic background, as the overwhelming consensus from various trustworthy organizations, including esteemed institutions like Oxford, University of Michigan, and California, consistently refers to him as Albanian. The extensive body of evidence gathered from these reputable sources lends significant credibility to this assertion. Illyriankajak (talk) 13:59, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Illyriankajak is possibly Sockpuppet of Based.shqiptar.frompirok. Looking at what both of the accounts are editing, and taking a glance at edits, frequency of edits, time of edits and etc of both accounts. Rijekaneretva (talk) 16:09, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I am telling you that I am not a sockpuppet. I conducted my own research on Google Books regarding him and discovered the exact same sources. Interestingly, we are friends who assist each other on Wikipedia. Please refrain from making false assumptions. Illyriankajak (talk) 18:10, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
How can i prove to you that i am not a suckpoppet. Any way, i will show you. Illyriankajak (talk) 18:33, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
sockpuppet* sorry Illyriankajak (talk) 18:33, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Illyriankajak
Use your first account and continue the discussion. Rijekaneretva (talk) 18:35, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I am not a sockpuppet, how can i prove that to you, tell me. Same interests = Sockpuppet? Alright. Illyriankajak (talk) 18:38, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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