Talk:Jewish Christian

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Conceptualization etc. (globalize)[edit]

Some issues:

  1. Why is this talk page not archived? The oldest comment on this page is from just three months ago. (Created archive from history).
  2. Issues with terminology and hyperbole: For example the language "totally faithful" in the lede.
  3. The term "Jewish Christians" is nominally general and as such has contemporary relevance, yet this is not mentioned in the lede. The lede improperly asserts an exclusively historical and contextually Christian definition, and not a Jewish-cultural/Christian belief definition, which is given only a section below, and otherwise might be confined to particular conceptualizations like "Netzarim," "Conversos," "Marranos," "Judaizers" or "converts/apostates."

-Stevertigo (w | t | e) 18:46, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

This article clearly has problems, including a couple noticed here years ago. So I will continue here, focusing on the lead.
I think there are problems with the editing around some of the sources. For example, I wouldn't argue with Dr McGrath's quote given in the citation, but the article text lets the one statement stand out of context, as though there were uniformity among "Jewish Christians" (just how do you identify them, exactly?), and as though there were no conflicts or issues that the first Christians were sorting out at the time. The very adherence of former Jews to all Jewish traditions, especially circumcision, produced conflicts as far away as Corinth. And see what the Apostle Paul has to say about it in 1 Cor 7! He was most outspoken against the continuation of the very practices that are being pointed out in the article as being a norm that continued. But they didn't.
Then let's take the Australian Catholic Univ source, by the unmentioned author David C Sim, who wishes to claim that the total number of Jews in the "Christian movement" (whatever that is) probably never exceeded 1000. I presume he has read Acts 2:41, where 3,000 joined the church on the day of Pentecost. More to the point, we can be sure that the Catholic Church knows the verse well, and doesn't do squishy math with the numbers or history. So, how acceptable is Sim as a WP:RS? Was he accepted because he was Catholic, or a prof at a nominally Catholic university? If his views are at odds with Catholicism (aren't they evidently so?) on what are we to base his reliability? So, what is the last paragraph of the lead, under-supported by only this one questionable source, doing there? Is it POV? Is it OR? Or something else? I'll wager it's not reliable, and unless I hear otherwise something soon, I'll remove that bit. But this is just small potatoes compared to an article that begins completely out of focus, where its principal subject area is not even clearly delineated. Would anyone else like to comment, or start fixing? Evensteven (talk) 19:36, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Depicting Legends as Sources[edit]

Much of this material, particularly that applying to adventures of saints, is not historically sound. It has been passed on as religious legend and may be taken as factual by churches, but that is not acceptable for true scholarship. The ambiguity about these historical times and the gaps in our knowledge need to be acknowledged, and the only documents that are relevant are those not obviously written by medeival Christian propogandists. 76.113.64.124 (talk) 06:02, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

There is little about religious historiology, Christian or otherwise, which is unambiguously factual. If you could list some specific criticisms, they could be dealt with one at a time. -Stevertigo (w | t | e) 00:27, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
Lets start with the assumption that Christians believe their own theology, and that Jesus rose from the tomb, and that the 11 disciples took over the movement after Jesus went to heaven. James became the congregational leader (according to tradition) after the congregation was scattered, not immediately upon Jesus' death. --DeknMike (talk) 13:13, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
I tagged the appropriate parts of history with the religious primary template... I agree, that section really needs an academic historical reference. Zad68 (talk) 21:49, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Rewrite needed for lead[edit]

This article is focused on first century Jewish believers, and ignores Jewish believers throughout history, especially the effect of Jewish Christians, Hebrew Christians and Messianic Jews in the 19th, 20th and 21st centuries. For example, the first sentence references the Judaizers in the original congregation in Jerusalem. However, that congregation likely was not call Christian, being a Hellenistic term originating in Antioch. --DeknMike (talk) 04:41, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I have been reading your comment and you have a good point. Should this article title be "Early Jewish Christians"? - Ret.Prof (talk) 00:25, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
Or, the missing material could just be added. There's nothing stopping anyone from doing it, subject of course to WP:V, WP:NOR and WP:NPOV. Jayjg (talk) 00:39, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
On the other hand "early Jewish Christians" are a distinct group, regardless if that is the best name to call them. I'm not sure if an article on every person in the last 2000 years who is in some sense both Jewish and Christian is a good idea. Borock (talk) 14:10, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

archived tangential Messianic Judaism section[edit]

Main article: Messianic Judaism

During the first years of the 20th Century, some Jews who had converted to Christianity began distancing themselves from Christian forms of worship, and began to use the term "Messianic".[1] In the 1940s and 50s, missionaries in Israel adopted the term meshichyim ("Messianics") to counter negative connotations of the word nozrim ("Christians"). The rise of Messianic Judaism was, in many ways, a logical outcome of the ideology and rhetoric of the movement to evangelize the Jews as well as its early sponsorship of various forms of Hebrew Christian expressions. The missions have promoted the idea that conversion to Christianity was acceptable for Jews.[2]

In the 1960s, in part because of the Jesus movement, Jewish groups and mainline Christians were surprised to see this rise of a vigorous movement of Jewish Christians or Christian Jews.[3] Martin Chernoff became the President of the HCAA in 1971 (until 1975), and under his leadership the movement's position shifted radically. In June 1973, a motion was made to change the name of the HCAA to the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America (MJAA), and the name was officially changed in June 1975. According to David A. Rausch, "The name change, however, signified far more than a semantical expression — it represented an evolution in the thought processes and religious and philosophical outlook toward a more fervent expression of Jewish identity,"[4] and began to eliminate the elements of Christian worship that cannot be directly linked to their Jewish roots. [5] --DeknMike (talk) 01:18, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

What is your point with this material? Jayjg (talk) 02:30, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
The section at the end of the article about Jews who had converted to Christianity also struck me as being totally off-topic. I also tend to question the whole article as being somewhat original research and a fringe view, although with some good information. I'm not sure a distinct article for "Jewish Christians" is needed, rather good NPOV coverage of the history of the relationship of Judaism and early Christianity.Borock (talk) 13:51, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
  1. ^ http://www.alittlehebrew.com/jorge/C.%20T.%20Lucky/The.Messianic.Jew.1:1.%281910%29.pdf
  2. ^ Ariel, Yaakov S. (2000). "Chapter 20: The Rise of Messianic Judaism" (Google Books). Evangelizing the chosen people: missions to the Jews in America, 1880–2000. Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press. p. 223. ISBN 9780807848807. OCLC 43708450. http://books.google.com/books?id=r3hCgIZB790C&printsec=frontcover&vq=advocated+offspring+rhetoric+Shalom#v=onepage&q=advocated%20offspring%20rhetoric%20Shalom&f=false. The term was used to designate all Jews who had converted to Protestant evangelical Christianity.
  3. ^ Ariel, Yaakov (2006). "Judaism and Christianity Unite! The Unique Culture of Messianic Judaism". In Gallagher, Eugene V.; Ashcraft, W. Michael. Jewish and Christian Traditions. Introduction to New and Alternative Religions in America. 2. Westport, Conn: Greenwood Publishing Group. p. 191. ISBN 978-0275987145. LCCN 2006022954. OCLC 315689134. In the late 1960s and 1970s, both Jews and Christians in the United States were surprised to see the rise of a vigorous movement of Jewish Christians or Christian Jews. 
  4. ^ http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=1339
  5. ^ Feher, Shoshanah. Passing over Easter: Constructing the Boundaries of Messianic Judaism, Rowman Altamira, 1998, ISBN 9780761989530, p. 20 The Messianic movement has eliminated the elements of Christian worship that cannot be directly linked to their Jewish roots. Communion is therefore associated with Passover, since the Eucharist originated during Ushua’s Last Supper, held at Passover. In this way, Passover is given a new, Yshua-centered meaning.

POVFORK of this article being created[edit]

As this article notes, "Hebrew Christian" is another term for "Jewish Christian". Since 2006 the page Hebrew Christian has been a redirect to this article. In December, DeknMike (talk · contribs) decided to turn the Hebrew Christian article into a WP:POVFORK of Messianic Judaism - in fact, copying significant amounts of text verbatim from the Messianic Judaism article. A discussion was held regarding what should be done about this at Talk:Messianic Judaism/Archive 20#Newly updated Wikipedia article "Hebrew_Christian", and the consensus was to restore the redirect. However, since then DeknMike has reverted 3 different editors, re-creating the WP:POVFORK. He has not actually explained why the material is not already or could not be covered in the Messianic Judaism or Jewish Christian articles. Is there a consensus that the "Hebrew Christian" article should be turned into a standalone article?

  • Oppose, for the reasons given above. Jayjg (talk) 18:18, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose for reasons as above but I do think an NEW article should be created with a title like "Hebrew Christians (19th Century movement)" or something like that. There was such a movement in that period and it deserves a page, but that movement was not directly related to or a continuation of the movement discussed at Jewish Christians.Zad68 (talk) 21:31, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Can someone lease explain, first, why you're holding this discussion here instead of on that article's talk page? It seems to me to be implicitly prejudicial to hold the discussion here. Well, I see that you've notified that other article, so I guess this is fine, but I still find it odd. I'm going to take a look at the several articles in question later today when I have time; when I read just Hebrew Christian as a reader with no knowledge of the subject, I don't actually see how it's a POV fork, but perhaps if I read it more closely (or if someone explains), I'll understand better. If there is, in fact, as Zad68 says, a distinct, separate movement from the 19th century that is not the same movement as Messianic Judaism, then there should be a separate article. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:44, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

We're doing the vote on this page because Jayjg did a redirect on the HC talk page, and it is no longer publicly accessible.--DeknMike (talk) 01:21, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
  • For - The Messianic Judaism editorial community made convincing arguments that the history of the Hebrew Christian movement did not belong on that site. However, since the Jewish Christian article deals mostly with early Christianity, I used the large body of evidence to document the rise of so-called Hebrew Christians in the 18th thru 20th century as a separate movement. However, if the community would prefer, we can rename the aforementioned article Hebrew Christian 'Movement'. --DeknMike (talk) 01:21, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
So the issue is resolved then DeknMike if you agree to create a new page and put the material on the 19th century movement there. DeknMike could you please put back the redirect on Hebrew Christian to Jewish Christians and put the material on the 19th century on a new page, problem solved. Right? Zad68 (talk) 02:39, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
That sounds fine to me; the current contents can got to Hebrew Christian Movement or something similar, and Hebrew Christian can redirect back here, with a properly worded {{redirect}} note at the top of this article. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:13, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose For the reasons stated above. Best, A Sniper (talk) 02:21, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

RESOLVED: Per consensus and agreement of DeknMike at the discussion here, and because DeknMike mentioned that he would be away from editing for a few days, I completed the move of the article contents and restored the original redirect. Zad68 (talk) 15:33, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Contents are now at Hebrew Christian Movement Zad68 (talk) 15:34, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

The lede was incorrect in placing without sourcing four/five terms as coequivalent, which sources indicate they are not, even if Christian Jews, Hebrew Christians reasonably redirects back here. I have broken out and added [incomplete but mainstream I hope] sources. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:40, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Messy intro[edit]

The current intro constitutes a multitude of "definitions", that should instead be placed on a disambiguation page. The article body, in contrast, is dealing mainly with the original Aramaic speaking "Christians" (Nazarenes, the original adherents of Yeshua bar-Maryam) living in Roman Judea of antiquity. Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 10:41, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Jewish AND Christian?[edit]

since Jesus never claimed to be anything other that a Jew, is there a form of Judaism that acknowledges Him as the Messiah, but rejects Christianity itself?--99.101.160.159 (talk) 05:08, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Christian Jews[edit]

The link to Christian Jews is unnecessary as it simply redirects here. -Stevertigo (t | c) 02:03, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

opinion[edit]

when one says that a person is Jewish-Christian, what does the name so over? Have seen the term has been used in several articles, concerning a person's religious beliefs.--109.232.72.49 (talk) 20:48, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Circumcision controversy[edit]

The article says, "A common interpretation of the circumcision controversy of the New Testament was that it was over the issue of whether Gentiles could enter the Church directly or ought to first convert to Judaism. However, the Halakha of Rabbinic Judaism was still under development at this time, as the Jewish Encyclopedia article on Jesus notes ... ." Whether or not the Halakha, (i.e., Jewish law) was under development or not, circumcision was not at issue.

The article also says, "In 1st century Pharisaic Judaism there was controversy over the significance of circumcision, for example between Hillel the Elder and Shammai." Hillel and Shammai agreed that male converts had to be circumcised; they disagreed on the treatment of converts who were already circumcised.

If there are no objections, I will amend accordingly. Marshall46 (talk) 12:07, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Done. Marshall46 (talk) 09:18, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
Good edit! Your assessment of the facts in the situation at hand is correct, and I suspect the original interpretation of the sources cited was somewhat off-kilter. Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 02:44, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Requested move 20 December 2015[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Reasonable debate about which title is more accurate and it has been clearly shown that reliable sources prefer the current title. Jenks24 (talk) 04:01, 28 December 2015 (UTC)



Jewish ChristianHebrew Christian – Jewish is a name of both a religious and ethnic society. Especially in this article and topic, we can not use the name Jewish before Christian. Because it creates a paradox. The word Hebrew must be used. Because in this article the word "Jewish" shows ethnicity and the word Christian shows "religion". Why to use ambiguity instead of clarity? For clarity, in this article and in every place where the Jewish ethnicity is meant we must use the word "Hebrew" or "Israelite" not the word Jew. Would a Hebrew Christian would call himself "I'm a Jewish Christian" or "I'm a Hebrew Christian"? He would emphasize that he is a convert so he would not use the name "Jew" which also implies religion other than ethnicity.  İskenderBalas💬 20:38, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

  • Support - The proposed name is more accurate. I'm just wondering how much information we may have to cut out (referring to Jewish as a religion) to comply with the new page name. Meatsgains (talk) 02:18, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose User:Meatsgains is this more common in Google Books? I see the current title getting 8x the hits. Also some of Google Book "Hebrew Christian" refs refer not to general "Jewish Christians"/"Hebrew Christians" but to the 19th Century Hebrew Christian movement (look at this book cover) on a specific 19th Century Hebrew Christian movement, not general Jewish Christians. Jewish Christian is generally used of 2nd and 3rd centuries, but can be used up till 2015 also. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:07, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose. To see "Jewish" and "Christian" as mutually exclusive terms is an anachronism, as is the idea of a purely "ethnic" Jew. The first Christians were Jews and considered themselves Jewish in every way. The separation of the church and synagogue was a gradual thing, not an immediate break. The first Christians did not see themselves as converting out of Judaism, but merely as a part of it; in fact during the very early days they required gentile believers to convert into Judaism and observe Judaic customs. The council of Jerusalem ended this requirement only around AD 49. The Jewish leadership denounced the "Nazarenes" (as Christians are still called in Hebrew) as heretics and worse, but still saw the Jews who led the early church as Jews. See for example Wilson, Marvin R. (1989). Our Father Abraham: Jewish Roots of the Christian Faith. Grand Rapids, MI: William B Eerdmans Publishing. (This reliable source uses the term "Jewish Christian" throughout.) —  Cliftonian (talk)  08:47, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Question Why not Jewish Christianity? The article subject is a movement, no? Looks like it's used somewhat commonly --JFH (talk) 14:21, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
Christ was always a Hebrew, but never a Jew. He established a new religion. Even when he was younger there was a clash between him and Jewish elders. And this religion's greatest rival was Judaism. To emphasize the distinction we should use the word Hebrew, because the word Hebrew demonstrates ethnicity only while the word Jew is more ambiguous. When I proposed the change, I was aware Judeo-Christian has always been used by researchers to identify the original Christians. However, shouldn't we use the word Hebrew which is purely objective and not indicating a controversial ambiguity. It is not like I coined the term Hebrew Christians. It was always there. It is just less used compared to Judeo-Christians because of a common fault of scholars.-- İskenderBalas💬 10:53, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
@Iskenderbalas: A few points.
  1. I'm afraid I must take exception with the assertion that Jesus "established a new religion". He did no such thing. The Christian narrative is that Jesus formed the Church (that is, the collective group that would today be called Christians), which was originally Jewish in all senses of the word and identified as part of Second Temple Judaism, and that over the next century and a half this group became separated enough from mainstream Judaism that it defined itself as apart from, or in place of, Judaism, as Christianity. It isn't until AD 49, about two decades after the crucifixion, that the first step is made towards breaking away when the Church in Jerusalem decides not to make gentile converts be circumcised or observe Judaic law. (see Wilson. Our Father Abraham. pp. 87–90.) Even if you're going solely by what's in the New Testament, the council's decision at Jerusalem is in Acts, after the Gospels. It was Paul, more than anyone, who established Christianity as a religion separate from Judaism.
  2. Jesus spoke from within Judaism and the Gospels make this very clear. The Gospels set him against other Jews and the contemporary leadership of the main Jewish sects, yes, but not against Judaism itself. Same applies to the Apostles and to Paul in other parts of the NT. (see Wilson, Our Father Abraham. p. 92).
  3. I don't buy this idea of Jesus being "always a Hebrew, but never a Jew". In fact I find it rather offensive. If Jesus were not a Jew, why would he be circumcised on the eighth day? Why would he be described in the gospels as going "up" to Jerusalem with his family at the Jewish holidays? (The concept of going "up to Jerusalem" is significant in Judaism.) Why would the apostles call him "rabbi"? Why would he be tried by the Sanhedrin—and why would they have any authority over him? Why would "INRI" (ישוע הנוצרי, מלך היהודים—"Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews") be affixed to the cross? The list really goes on and on. —  Cliftonian (talk)  16:15, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose. In actual usage, "Jewish" is commonly an ethnic descriptor and at least some Jews and Christians regard these religions at not being mutually exclusive. Srnec (talk) 13:54, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
I said all I was going to say on this matter. The decision belongs to the community. -- İskenderBalas💬 17:12, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 29 December 2015[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. No support for the proposals, but Jewish Christians may be a better title if someone wants to start an RM for that suggestion. Number 57 14:56, 6 January 2016 (UTC)


Jewish ChristianJewish Christianity – Consistent with other articles on movements/communities. A common term for the subject. JFH (talk) 20:54, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

  • Oppose The change from focusing on a person to a movement, which has many subgroups, to me does not bring more clarity. Unless thoroughly vetted, I recommend leaving this as is. Basileias (talk) 09:46, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose - A move would change what should be included on the page as Basilicas noted, from an individual/person to a movement. Meatsgains (talk) 14:39, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment in a variety of ways a plurality is involved and a better title would be Jewish Christians. GregKaye 06:06, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
-Comment I was thinking the same thing, however it is covered in the article opening. Basileias (talk) 07:20, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 18 August 2016[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. (non-admin closure) Omni Flames (talk) 06:59, 25 August 2016 (UTC)



Jewish ChristianFirst Christians – The current title "Jewish Christian" is somewhat correct, but is also confusing and might not be correct per be WP:COMMONNAME. Since the topic is early sects of Christianity (such as Nazorenes, Abionites, etc), we do find much references to "First Christians" and "Early Christians" in the academic debate in order to refer to those initial Christian communities in Roman Judaea and Syria ([1] and [2]), while "Jewish Christian" is both referring to modern Messianic Jews or Judaizing Christian sects and First/Early Christians (see [3]). GreyShark (dibra) 06:15, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
*Support but would prefer Early Christians. A "Jewish Christian" could easily refer to Messianic Jews or an early Jew who believed Jesus was the Jewish Messiah. Ḉɱ̍ 2nd anniv. 14:32, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Comment An early Jew who believed... is the focus of the article. Hence the intro ...original members of the Jewish movement....Basileias (talk) 05:10, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Neutral – during the time of Jesus, there were no "Christians" per se. The disciples considered themselves to be fully adherents to Second Temple Judaism and believed that Jesus is/was the Jewish Messiah, and fulfilled the position of the "suffering servant" in Messianic prophecies in his Crucifixion and Resurrection for the atonement of sin. So, it would be very misleading to state that they were the "First Christians" since they were adherents of Judaism but believed that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah. The split of Christianity (as we know it) and Judaism did not happen instantly. Instead, it was gradual. IMO, I don't like the current or proposed title. Ḉɱ̍ 2nd anniv. 16:42, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Opposed A move would change what should be included in the article and the time period of focus. Basileias (talk) 05:03, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The article also covers modern era.--Galassi (talk) 16:39, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The article's focus is on the fact that Christianity, at the beginning, was a subset of Judaism. And the changes and tensions that occurred, largely due to the Judaism/universalism interplay, as Christianity evolved. Maybe somebody will think up a better article title than "Jewish Christian", but I think that the present title is more appropriate than "First Christians". Mksword (talk) 00:37, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.