Talk:Jews

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Synonym to Jew[edit]

The Jews are also called Hebrews in certain countries (Like Russia, Евреи). Although not everywhere, the word Yid (Jew) would be used in a negative some areas. I think just for a small accuracy, it would helpful to just add "also known as Jewish People or Hebrews" or "The Jews, or Hebrews," and link it to the Hebrew article on wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.108.171.88 (talk) 10:05, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

Hebrews is the name of the Israelite people prior to the establishment of the Kingdom of Israel. It is not quite relevent to an English wikipedia. The article itself says that the Jews originated from the Hebrews.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 12:31, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

You just describe why this word is a synonym which basically supports what I wrote above. I am not discussing when it was first used, I am simply asking to add it as a commonly used synonym for the Jews for the reasons above. Yes, few lines later "Hebrews" will be mentioned again but for a different purpose. About the relevance to the Wikipedia article - I am not a registered user, nor I have any idea how things on Wikipedia work. Which is probably why I'd rather write in "talk" instead of creating a user and edit things by myself. I think it's relevant, especially since English is an international language. Additionally, I don't think 1-3 words can hurt that much, and they add accuracy. All the better. 84.108.171.88 (talk) 12:53, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

I disagree with the proposed addition, on the grounds that this is the English Wikipedia, and in English "Hebrews" and "Israelis" and "Jew" are all different things. No need to consider the etymological connection in other languages or the derogatory meanings in other languages on the English Wikipedia. Debresser (talk) 14:41, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

And how exactly are they different? Even in English, Hebrews and Jews are synonym while Israelites usually refers to the ancient Jews. So, you can refer to Jews as Hebrews even in English. 84.108.171.88 (talk) 16:11, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

In many languages, the word "Hebrews" is used as an equivalent for Jews, and the article discusses that. See Jews#Name and etymology. English isn't one of those languages, however. In English, the use of the word "Hebrew" to describe a Jew is archaic. — MShabazz Talk/Stalk 17:27, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
"Hebrews" is not a synonym for "Jews".. How did you interpret that from my words? I said that "Hebrews" was the name (in the Hebrew version of the Old Testement) of the Israelite people (including the Jews) prior to the establishment of the Kingdom of Israel. When you say "Hebrews" in English you are generally refering to Israelites (sons of Israel). The "Jews" are Israelites from "Judea", at least according to tradition.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 11:32, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

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Murdered or killed[edit]

To be fair I am not really sure about this. Murder for me is a legal term and it worries me that saying jews were "murdered" implies it was done behind the back of the German state, surreptitiously so to speak, when it was the exact opposite. It was a state-sponsored genocide. I hope my position makes sense. I don't like "killed" either since it doesn't seem an adequate. Exterminated maybe? Asilah1981 (talk) 16:43, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

I was just about to start the thread with the same title! My initial thoughts are that the Nazi state was declared an outlaw entity and its laws rendered null and void. Nuremberg trials should have something to say on this re sources. Also subsequent concepts of Genocide as perceived by international law. Theoretically the holocaust even under Nazi-written laws, could have been argued to have been murder. This opens out an interesting line of thought. It is very tricky indeed, and exterminated is a possibility. Maybe we can develop a consensus here. Irondome (talk) 16:52, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
What I've usually seen, the reasoning is that the Nazi government was not legitimate (or more broadly, that any genocide invalidates any government's claim to legitimacy at a minimum in the matter). Ian.thomson (talk) 18:00, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes frankly, I don't have an answer. More opinions welcome. :-)Asilah1981 (talk) 16:55, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Crimes against humanity#Nuremberg trials Paragraph 6 (c) of the London Charter seems fairly uncompromising on the use of the term "murder" and "extermination". Irondome (talk) 17:22, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

I think that Wikipedia is not a court of law. The word "murder" is widely used by reliable sources, as well as the layman, in relation to the Holocaust, so it can be used. In addition, it sounds more emotional than the detached "killed", and I think that is legitimate in this case, even on an encyclopedia. Debresser (talk) 17:55, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

I would agree with the comments by Debresser and Ian above. The term murder is extensively used by RS. Irondome (talk) 19:01, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
Yes I guess I do to... I agree killed sounded wrong in this case.Asilah1981 (talk) 20:04, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
Debresser I think there may be a slight misunderstanding here. I thought you were satisified with the term murder or at least did not explicitly oppose it. I sense consensus is with "murder" at this point. It is, after all technically correct if the above points made by others are taken into account. I suggest we all refrain from further edits until an explicit agreed consensus is reached. Simon. Irondome (talk) 21:20, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
The misunderstanding was me mixing up the revert with the undo. I meant to restore "murdered" and accidentally restored "killed". There is no disagreement between us and I thank Asilah1981 for reverting my mistake. Debresser (talk) 22:18, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Thanks for that D. I am aware that you are having a few problems with a rogue IP at the moment, and stress like that can mix any editor up. Clarification much appreciated. Simon Irondome (talk) 22:48, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
Murdered is better than killed because it transmits the additional sense of illegality / war crimes. Oncenawhile (talk) 21:38, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
Just to clarify positions. I would prefer the term "murder" also. Irondome (talk) 22:12, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Judaism is not an ethnicity[edit]

WP:RBI --NeilN talk to me 00:40, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

According to a Rabbi I spoke with Judaism is a religion and not and ethnicity just like Christianity or Islam is a religion and not a ethnicity. I think ethnicity for Jews needs to be dropped. There is no cited article that specifically calls Judaism an ethnicity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.213.142.36 (talk) 22:29, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Did you look at footnote 12? There's an immense amount of literature on the ethno- part of "ethnoreligious group". Antandrus (talk) 23:24, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Judaism is not only an ethnicity, but it is also an ethnicity. Debresser (talk) 00:10, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
I think this a confusion between Jews as adherents of the religion Judaism, and Jews as members of the Jewish ethnicity (which is normally not called Judaism, but the Jewish people, Jews, etc). Granted, almost all members of Judaism are also ethnic Jews, many ethnic Jews are also members of Judaism, and the religion and the ethnicity share the same origins. Ask the rabbi if the Jewish people are an ethnicity. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:15, 22 July 2016 (UTC)