Talk:Jews for Jesus

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Stuff taken out[edit]

I removed some parts that were quite wildly not neutral. I feel bad about just throwing text away, so here it is: --Apoc2400 (talk) 22:00, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

[Deletions][edit]

If needed, Apoc2400's deletions may be reviewed via this oldid link to this Talk page [His deletions were entirely reverted, and the large quantity of text he'd moved from the article to here was dominating the talk page. Pdebonte (talk) 22:31, 22 June 2011 (UTC)]

Discussion about my changes[edit]

I was reverted by A Sniper. Please explain. --Apoc2400 (talk) 22:44, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

You call a purge of so much material justified? A Sniper (talk) 22:52, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Yes, since the material was not neutral and doesn't belong in this article. This article was (still is) a complete hit piece, which is not acceptable. --Apoc2400 (talk) 23:14, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
You have re-written the entire article, which was created by a group of editors of varying backgrounds. Your changes were not just minor ones but removing entire sections, total re-writes, and all under the guise of removal of POV - and your re-write smacks of it. Why not try editing a section at a time and allowing for the usual editors to get around to consensus? Best, A Sniper (talk) 05:29, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Yes, I made big changes and this article will need more. Do you really think the article was written from a neutral point of view? Also, I think you are aware of WP:OWN. --Apoc2400 (talk) 19:14, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Please review WP:BRD. Your edits were bold, they were reverted; now let's discuss them. Please do not start an edit war. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 19:36, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
You cannot just revert "per BRD". You have to give a reason for reverting. Reverting with a reference to edit warring is just hypocritical. I ask again, do you think the version you are reverting to is neutral? --Apoc2400 (talk) 21:38, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
I put a request at the Neutral point of view noticeboard. --Apoc2400 (talk) 22:14, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Good for you. Best, A Sniper (talk) 23:52, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Please, do you think all the POV pushing I removed actually belongs in the article? BRD does not mean you should revert without any reason. --Apoc2400 (talk) 00:23, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
As respected editor Malik Shabazz has stated, you were bold and you were reverted. Now, if you'd like to take one section at a time, giving other editors the opportunity to agree, refute or expand, fair enough. All editors can have the chance to support or to challenge. However, your stating what you have at the neutrality page begs the question as to whether you yourself have an agenda. I myself am hoping your attempt was in good faith. Even members of Jews for Jesus acknowledge that they are Christians and that all denominations of Judaism reject that they are practising a form of Judaism. That isn't opinion - it is established fact. So is the provocative nature of their ministry, which can also be referenced without being POV. Yes, the article isn't perfect but it does not warrant a complete purging. Best, A Sniper (talk) 00:45, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
I think you raise some good questions, Apoc2400, concerning whether this article strikes an appropriate balance and achieves NPOV. May I ask that any substantive discussions be postponed until Monday? Some of the editors who may be interested in participating are precluded from using their computers during their observance of the Jewish New Year this weekend. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 03:17, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

very unfair, non neutral article[edit]

Jews for judaism is allowed to advertise on the Jews for Jesus page but on the Jews for judaism page they can't even talk rationally about Jesus. here's some advice it's this kind of bias in mainstream judaism against christianity that Jews are tired of. everyone knows what the torah says, christians made it the most printed book in history, many jews don't see a conflict between it and yeshua translated iesous translated Jesus. some jews let the talmud (any logical, honest individual can see obvious problems with it when compared to the torah) and people who hate christians for other reasons (based on emotional, irrational behavior planted in them from another person within the Jewish community) dictate to them what it means to Jewish. others don't. Jews for Jesus whether it is an outreach or not will always exist because Jews who take an interest in Jesus are ostrtacized, rejected, persecuted, by not only their communities but their families. Jews for Jesus gives them a place they can fellowship with other Jews who have gone through the same thing. shame on judaism for its treatment of people who accept the most famous Jew in history whose resurrection even non Christian historians have a hard time denying.

may i suggest people who oppose Jews for Jesus (any member of Judaism who considers a belief in Jesus to take away a persons Jewishness) be unable to remove information that supports the organization. this is analogous to a muslim taking control of the page on judaism.

Grmike (talk) 16:40, 31 October 2009 (UTC)GRMIKE

Shouldn't the Jews for Jesus article be compared to the Christians for Judaism article, rather than the Jews for Judaism article? Bus stop (talk) 18:54, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

A neutral article on Jews for Jesus will contain complete coverage of opposition to the organizations activities. I think the article is reasonably well balanced. Fred Talk 20:00, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

too much of the article deals with its opposition[edit]

opposition to it within the Christian community is sparse if not non existent. on the page for Judaism is half the article about opponents to Judaism ? this is obvious hijacking of an article. this page deserves better. 24.224.221.23 (talk) 17:37, 1 November 2009 (UTC)grmike

I think the included information probably belongs in the article if Wikipedia:Neutral point of view is followed. The activities of Jews for Jesus are not a minor issue to Jews and that needs to be made plain if there is to be complete coverage of the subject. Fred Talk 19:57, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Though I have little interest in this article (I only checked it out, because Rosen, who I had met, recently died), I must concur that it is extremely unbalanced,, and deficient of encyclopedic content. If there were an award for worst article on wikipedia, this definitely be a candidate:

  • The sections on lawsuits warrants a brief paragraph, not a detailed enumeration of every legal action.
  • There in absolutely no information about the History of the organization, which should be largest section in the article
  • The Background section, is really just polemic against the organization, which misrepresents opinion as fact.
  • The section on leadership misrepresents Brickner's background (his father was Jewish, and his mother's father and her maternal grandmother were Jewish, making him fully Jewish according to Jewish law (plus many people identified as Jews on wikipedia have Gentile mothers).
  • The the method's of evangelism section, is worded as such, for the purpose of inferring that Jews for Jesus, intentionally uses manipulative and deceptive tactics.
  • The list of references is overkill to the extreme and does not enhance the article

These issues need to be addressed before this can be considered a valid article. Otherwise it should be deleted. -RevDan (talk) 00:43, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

I have addressed some of these concerns. Check out the article now. Messianicmatt (talk) 23:47, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

Christian support[edit]

I added a mention of that to the intro. Obviously many Christians do support them, giving money, letting them speak in churches, etc. More of this could be documented in the article. I am neutral. I think both Judaism and Christianity are good religions. Wolfview (talk) 14:24, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

This article is so biased, so slanted against Jews for Jesus, and is so obviously critical in its contents that I'm not sure it can be fixed. I appears that efforts were made to dredge up every critical comment available and quote it as a source. If you're going to list comments from detractors, how about at least listing Jew for Jesus responses to the criticism? Incidentally, I'm not a Jew for Jesus, and, in fact, have considerable disagreements with their theology. This is supposed to be an encyclopedic source, not an editorial column. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.137.3.4 (talk) 02:32, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Since there are so many complaints about this article, but A Sniper has pushed on this Talk page for incremential fixes to this pages' NPOV problem, I'm therefore trying to show who more specifically believes what, which I've seen help NPOV on other pages, my favorite example being the Sola Fide section of the Five Solas article). In particular, I've noticed that the "Christian oposition" cited in this article is largely (if not entirely) Liberal, and therefore this is a fight between Liberals and Conservatives, not Christianity as a whole vs Jews for Jesus. Will you help? Thanks! Pdebonte (talk; Please also see my Conflicts of Interest disclosure) 17:41, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

I have addressed some of these concerns. Check out the article now. Messianicmatt (talk) 23:49, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

evangelism vs. evangelical vs. evangelistic[edit]

Zad68 asked for clarification in the edit, asking "noun is 'evangelism', isn't the adjective form 'evangelical', not 'evangelistic'? there are 2 attempts to use an adjective form of 'evangelism' in the lede, they should match one way or the other". These are 3 words used 4 ways:

  • evangelism (noun) is the act of attempting to convert another to your point of view
  • evangelical (adjective) describes a person or activity that does evangelism
  • Evangelical (noun) refers to a group of Christian denominations that practice evangelism as a core doctrine
  • evangelistic (adjective) describes an activity conducted to support evangelism --DeknMike (talk) 16:26, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Tags[edit]

An editor wandered in and did a drive-by tag with several reasons for concern about the article, although none of these was fully explained or bolstered by any evidence or argument - nothing here at the talk page. As someone who has edited the page - and monitored recent editing accomplishments over here - I have removed the tag. Best, A Sniper (talk) 02:01, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

The tag in question was {{Multiple issues | criticisms = February 2011 | expert = February 2011 | globalize = February 2011 | POV = February 2011 | pov-check = February 2011 }}. I've put {{Undue-section}}, which covers a more specific issue and only on the Jews_for_Jesus#Opposition_and_criticism section. This is not a "drive-by," because I'm working on it. My main reasoning is that the criticism is more than half of the article, whereas the Jews_for_Jesus#Affiliations_and_support section is only a few lines. There are plenty of positive reports just on the Jews for Jesus website alone. Discussion and/or help welcome Pdebonte (talk; Please also see my Conflicts of Interest disclosure) 02:43, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Copyright: does direct quote require quotation marks?[edit]

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In section, "1987 – freedom of speech", the content, "as part of a larger ban on what they described as First Amendment activities. Jews for Jesus challenged the airport's right to institute such a sweeping ban." is a direct quote from the ADL web page. Although it has an end-noted citation, it is not enclosed in double quotes. Is this acceptable? If not, I wonder if there are other, similar violations in this article. I searched a little bit (e.g. Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Quotations), but would appreciate some help (thanks! :). Pdebonte (talk) 21:40, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Direct quotes need to be clearly indicated as such. They cannot be inserted into the article with no indication, regardless of whether or not they're cited. Quotation marks should be used, unless the quote is longer than four lines. If this is the case, format them as block quotes by using <blockquote> and </blockquote>, or {{quotation}}. Not indicating that they are direct quotes is a copyright violation, and should either be changed or removed. To find additional instances where this is occurring, you could try using the Copyright Violation Detector. GorillaWarfare talkcontribs 03:30, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Thanks GW: now that I know the answer, it was easier to find : ). It doesn't come right out and say that quotation marks are required, (I guess because you can also use <blockquote> as you noted), but says: "Quotations must always be clearly indicated as being quotations." Pdebonte (talk) 16:29, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

This article is confusing ....[edit]

I have little interest in this article, but the NPOV is out of whack, and full of troll edits.

for example:

on the "methods of evangelism " section:

The majority of evangelism used by Jews for Jesus consists of large mailings and pamphleteering. The organization uses colorful pamphlets and T-shirts to get their message across and is known for targeting populations of Jews which they see as receptive to their message,[21] such as recent immigrants, college students, senior citizens and interfaith couples.

"targeting" ... perhaps this entry should be in the 'criticism' section, or a new section 'criticism of evangelical methods' reference [21] has a boatload of criticism to evangelical methods. references to actual methods could be more helpful.

Compare "methods of evangelism" section with stated methods at http://www.jewsforjesus.org/about/whatwedo and it is obvious that the person who wrote/ edited this section is anti JfJ.

Also, BTW reference [10] is a dead link. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.195.41.60 (talk) 07:45, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

It looks like your organization has changed some the URL's of its pages. In any event, I fixed the link which is now to the one you provided here. If you don't like the word "targeting" perhaps you can suggest another one. Bear in mind that "targeting" is a formulation used by a number of reliable sources, including Billy Graham, who is quoted in another footnote saying "I have never targeted Jews." --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 02:44, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Revert of "Western pluralistic opposition" section[edit]

I'm a relatively new editor and am still learning, so I'd appreciate help understanding this reversion:

Steven J. Anderson: None of this describes opposition to JfJ. It's an argument against that opposition and WP:OR

  • Although the removed material isn't direct opposition to JfJ, is it not relevant to the opposition to JfJ? Is not presenting these two sides fitting with [[WP::NPOV]]?
  • I thought original research referred to the editor's own research. In contrast, this argument was obtained from a published book, and even quoted it in part. What am I missing?

Thanks very much! :) Pdebonte (talk) 21:32, 5 September 2011 (UTC) Please also see my Conflicts of Interest disclosure)

Directly after the sentence in the article that reads "Some Western Christians object to evangelizing Jews because they see Jewish religious practice as valid in and of itself." you wrote:

Such a view, however, espouses the pluralism common in the Western world, which can be shown to be a logical fallacy. One can easily show "the impossibility that all religions are equally valid [ways to God] in light of the fact that many religions contradict each other."[1] In the case of the two faiths at hand, the most fundamental contradiction is that Christianity requires the belief that Jesus is God, and Judaism holds that belief as idolatry: it teaches that Jesus is not God. To claim that both of those beliefs are equally valid violates the Law of Noncontradiction.

References

  1. ^ Winfried Corduan (1998). Neighboring Faiths. InterVarsity Press. p. 133. 
Now, here are some relevant questions that will determine whether this is original research or not. First, who is attempting to refute the (referenced) objection to evangelizing Jews based on the idea that Judaism is valid in and of itself, you or Corduan? If the answer is you, what you're doing is original research. Did Corduan mention Judaism or evangelism of Jews in the material cited (if so it's not in the quote provided). If not, it's original research. Did Corduan say anything about the quoted sentence being a logical fallacy? If not, it's original research. Did Corduan mention the dichotomy between Christian belief that Jesus is God and Jewish rejection of that belief? If not, it's original research. Does Corduan mention the "Law of Noncontradiction" in reference to evangelizing Jews or the view some Christians have that Jewish religious practice is valid? If not, it's original research.
It appears to me that the material I deleted was Pdebonte's personal view on the matter, thinly supported by a very general statement from Corduan about how some religions hold clearly contradictory views to other religions, with no clear indication that Corduan ever mentioned Christianity or Judaism or any conflict between the two, ever said anything about Christian evangelism targeted at Jews, ever addressed the view held by some Christians that Jewish practice is valid, or ever attempted a refutation of the view that your edit attempts to refute.
But, I might be wrong and I'm willing to be shown.
By the way, I don't think you have any conflicts of interest. Please see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Human to understand why. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 03:20, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Subject opposing the group should only be informational[edit]

I came across this page in order to find out about Jews for Jesus (i.e., information about the group - its founding, its belief system, etc.). As I kept reading, I found an enormous amount of information about Jewish organizations that oppose the group or are against its teachings. It seems that the site has been hijacked by those opposing the group. This would be similar to allowing others of different beliefs to take over pages of organizations they dislike or who have differing viewpoints. I can see the opposition of Jewish groups to this group as part of the general information, but it should not eventually be the dominant theme by taking up so much space. Perhaps all the dialogue opposing the organization should have a link to a site called "Jews opposed to Jews for Jesus" or something to that effect, and more information could be provided on that page. Would we allow religious groups to take over an "Atheist" or "Agnostic" page stating why they oppose people who have these beliefs? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.205.235.91 (talk) 22:22, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

There are very few religious groups that adopt the name of another religion whose basic tenets are fundamentally opposed to their own. Because the Jews for Jesus call themselves Jews, it is necessary to clarify the fact that their religion is, in no way, shape or form, Judaism. Suppose I were to start a religious group called "Muslims for Krishna"? Clearly, being a Muslim and believing in Krishna are mutually exclusive and anyone trying to write an accurate article on such a group would be at pains to make that fact clear. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 01:47, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Krishna has nothing to do with being Muslim, while Jesus was born in Israel and was Jewish. The point being that your reasoning doesn't make sense. The previous editor has a valid point. Because you say Messianic Judaism is not a religion doesn't make it so. It may not be Judaism as you know it, but it exists. What you are saying equates to Christians calling other Christian's sects and denominations false religions.68.184.234.9 (talk) 20:12, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
I have worked on other controversial articles and I can tell you this article has definitely been hijacked by those opposing Jews for Jesus. The tone is not neutral at all. Its obvious from Steven Anderson's comment that his viewpoint is bias. I dont have the time or the energy but someone should at least take the time to make this article fair.71.14.72.170 (talk) 02:51, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

I have addressed some of your concerns. Check out the article now. Thanks! Messianicmatt (talk) 23:50, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

Oh, Zad - why did you edit that stuff from 71.14.72.170 out? It was pure comedy - I laughed myself off the chair.  ;) A Sniper (talk) 04:43, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
This article is not WP:NPOV when the criticism section is 3x longer than the main article and covers lawsuits in greater detail than the groups history has been allotted. Are we saying that the only reason this group is notable is it's opposition? I just popped into see if Rabbi Ralph Messer was a member of JfJ. Alatari (talk) 23:55, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Footnotes sections are oddly done[edit]

Is there a reason why several of the footnotes are several paragraphs in their own rights? Footnote 7 is 8 paragraphs long. Also, this source from Christianaggression.org is being used as WP:RS but it is to a hate site and has many complaints against it from the WOT security analysis. The average values of the complaints is under 33% from reviewers with the lowest mark being given against child security Alatari (talk) 01:00, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Hello, “oddly done” is putting it mildly. In fact, the references are a second article. The statements in the footnotes should imo either be integrated into the text, if pertinent, or be removed, if irrelevant. Ajnem (talk) 11:47, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

When updating the article, please update the reference too[edit]

I see there is interest in updating this article. If you add or change information that no longer matches what the cited source says, please be sure to provide an updated source to support your new information. With the recent changes (8 May 2012), there is now a dead citation link http://www.ecfa.org/?PageName=MemberProfile2&MemberID=6322 that should be updated to http://www.ecfa.org/MemberProfile.aspx?ID=6322, and the article was updated from saying "Jews for Jesus employs more than 150 people" to "Jews for Jesus employs more than 200 people" but the reference that is in the article http://forward.com/articles/154180/the-very-first-jew-for-jesus/?p=all says "Jews for Jesus now employs more than 150 people" so the new article information doesn't match the source any more. Could you please help out by making sure the sources are up to date when you make content changes? Thanks. Zad68 (talk) 23:46, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Dear Zad68: Okay, I will update the references. I also received a Conflict of Interest message from Wikipedia. Yes, I do work for Jews for Jesus and was not trying to hide that from anyone. I just didn't know that I was supposed to declare that here. But the things I edited were either inaccurate statements of fact (such as how many cities and countries we have branches in) or just our perspective (quoted from our old website) on charges from others that we "target" weak individuals or use "deceptive" methods. It doesn't seem right that it is okay for someone to post these charges without allowing our own group to provide its perspective, especially when I can provide a reference from our own website on the issue. Please let me know if I can put back those statements of fact and the paragraph I wrote about our perspective on those charges. Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Messianicmatt (talkcontribs) 14:57, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for bringing updated references, and also for being up-front about your involvement with J4J. Wikipedia does not forbid employees of organizations from making updates to the articles about the organizations, but it is often very difficult for such employees to make edits that comply with Wikipedia policies regarding neutral point of view and balance especially. You can expect other editors to scrutinize your edits carefully. If you understand and apply Wikipedia policy, and bring excellent sources to back up your edits, it should not be a problem. Also, please do not misunderstand the purpose of Wikipedia articles. They are supposed to neutrally present information about topics, be backed up by reliable sources, and have content in balance found in the reliable sources. They are not supposed to be a battleground with someone making "charges" against a subject made in Wikipedia's voice. However, if there is controversy about a subject, and there are reliable sources that cover that controversy, that controversy will be covered in the article. Hope this helps. Zad68 (talk) 15:22, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Dear Zad68: Thank you for getting back to me so quickly. You will see that I made a few changes on statements of fact (statistics, income, etc.) with updated references. Now I would like to go into the "Evangelizing" section and quote from our own web page about our perspective on "targeting" and methods. May I proceed with that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Messianicmatt (talkcontribs) 15:32, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Go ahead! Be bold! You don't need my permission!  :) Regarding the edits you made, you updated the number of employees and removed the Forward reference, but the reference you put in http://www.ministrywatch.com/profile/jews-for-jesus.aspx doesn't give information about the number of employees, can't you put in a link to something on the J4J web site regarding the number of employees? References to a company's own web site for uncontroversial information like the number of employees is allowed under WP:SELFSOURCE. The other changes look great. Regarding the "Evangelism" section changes, there will probably be a back-and-forth of edits before there is consensus on how the information is presented. Zad68 (talk) 15:45, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Dear Zad68: Actually, if you look at the last paragraph under "History" in the ministrywatch.com reference, you will see that they report that we have 214 employees. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find anything on our website that lists the number of people we employ.Messianicmatt (talk) 17:14, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

You're right, I missed that, it's a relevant reference then. As the ministrywatch.com text is provided by J4J (it says at the top of that History section "This is a description of the history of Jews for Jesus as told by Moishe Rosen the Founder."), it is effectively in the same WP:SELFSOURCE category as if it were on the J4J site itself. Zad68 (talk) 13:56, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Dear Zad68: There is a note above the Opposition and Criticism section saying that an editor feels that section may be unfairly weighted against Jews for Jesus. I don't object to other organizations and individuals voicing objections to Jews for Jesus, but I'm wondering if I could add a section entitled positive comments or positive criticism (since criticism can be either positive or negative) in which I document good things that other reputable organizations and individuals have said about Jews for Jesus? Please let me know what I could label this category and whether this is acceptable to Wikipedia. Thank you.Messianicmatt (talk) 18:37, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Hi MM, there's a section already "Affiliations and support", looks like the content would be appropriate there. Make sure everything you add is sourced to a good source and is relevant. I don't "own" this article any more than you do, you don't need to ask my permission. I'm about to leave for the weekend, have a good one. Zad68 19:17, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Things are not clear in the article[edit]

Maybe this is beating on a dead dog, since the article is already a mess, but the content is misleading. I live in a south american country and none of the jews for jesus here are ethnically or religiously jews, they are merely christians claiming to be jews. The article seems to imply otherwise... 201.29.248.206 (talk) 00:59, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't see how the content is misleading. I am ethnically a Jew and believe in Jesus. I also consider myself "religiously" a Jew because I believe every word of the Hebrew Scriptures. I don't know what South American country you live in, but unless you know all of the Jews who profess belief in Jesus in your country, how can you say that "none of the Jews for Jesus here are ethnically or religiously Jews?"Messianicmatt (talk) 17:53, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

By definition, if you worship jesus, then you are not a jew, as Judaism denies that jesus is or was a messiah or a god. ParkH.Davis (talk) 04:26, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Secular Jews are eligible for Israeli citizenship but Jews For Jesus are not[edit]

Why? 76.120.17.197 (talk) 20:08, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

The question is answered on the page

In 1993 the Supreme Court of Israel, in a case involving a couple affiliated with Jews for Jesus, ruled that Jews who adhere to the Christian beliefs are regarded by Israeli law as "members of a different faith," and are not eligible for the automatic citizenship that Israel grants Jews. This is done not to try to change Jewish Law, but to preserve the Jewish character of the State of Israel – i.e., that allowing in people whose sole mission is to get Jews to become Christians is inimical to one of the core ethics of the country (to be a haven for Jews; see Israeli Declaration of Independence). In its summary of the ruling, the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs stated that the belief that Jesus is the Messiah "cannot be reconciled with Judaism" and "marks the clear separation between Judaism and Christianity.

Alatari (talk) 18:21, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

implement auto-archive?[edit]

There are several threads over two years old that are no longer active. Anyone have an objection to implementing auto-archive for this talk page? Mr. Swordfish (talk) 19:06, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

NPOV tag[edit]

Someone added an NPOV tag about a week ago, but there's no discussion so far.

Could someone outline what the issue is or point out the offending section(s)? Thanks. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 19:08, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

I didn't originally place the tag, but did position it correctly. As to the issues, I hope it would be evident from a look at the page. Right now, it looks like a tug of war between people who like the organization and dislike it. As one example, there's a bunch of verbatim marketing fluff, especially the bulleted items under the "Beliefs" and "Stated core values" sections. That ought to be trimmed out and replaced with neutral prose. There's also quite a bit of editorial, much unreferenced, much presented "in Wikipedia's voice" when it ought to be attributed. Some examples:

Unaddressed by many Jews, including former Jews such as Jews for Jesus adherents and other Christians, whether evangelicals or non-proselytizing Christians, is the deep self-hate and shame that are the root cause of Jewish conversion to Christianity. The most infamous case of this self-hate by a former Jew who converted to Christianity in the modern era was the Catholic Archbishop of Paris, Aaron "Aharon" Lustiger. His self-hate and shame issues as a Holocaust survivor whose mother was murdered at the Auschwitz death camp and concentration-death camp complex remained unaddressed both by himself and by Catholic scholars and the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic church itself at the time of his death.

The argument posited by Jews for Jesus converts to Christianity that they are still Jews is negated by the fact that their offspring will have little if any connection to Judaism, and the next generation following will have no connection to Judaism. This has been proven again and again in examining third and fourth generation offspring of Jewish American immigrants to America from the Old World, e.g. 1880 - 1920, when descendants abandon any Jewish identification or convert outright. So the argument presented by Jews for Jesus followers is a specious, false and deceptive argument.

The article should describe the organization and criticism against it, not "take a side" on whether it's good, bad, or otherwise. Seraphimblade Talk to me 20:19, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. I agree wholeheartedly and would support changes to this effect. This isn't my area of expertise so I don't know that I'll be of much help, but at least the conversation has begun. I look forward to seeing the article improve. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 13:33, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
I've made a stab at making the article more NPOV, taking out some of the "tug-of-war" aspects and generally tightening it up. We don't need to present every criticism and every defense, just enough to represent the controversy. Readers can follow the cites if tehy want more details. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 16:02, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Opinionated and Not Educational[edit]

Recently a young woman who went overseas with the Jews for Jesus program came to speak at our church. She told us all about her trip, and the things she saw and did there. I found it very interesting, so I came online here to find out more about this program, "Jews for Jesus", as I had never heard of it before her presentation. I was very disappointed to read this article, as it really told me almost nothing about the organization. Who founded the organization? When? How was it started? The article refers to a chairman, but what is the rest of the infrastructure of the organization? Are positions elected or appointed? How long do they serve? There are references to a boycott because of an annual meeting, however no mention of the meetings or their purpose are mentioned. This article is very clearly slanted against the organization, which is most disappointing because I was interested in learning facts about the organization, not hearing someone's opinion about it. This is by far the most unhelpful and uninformative article I have ever read on wikipedia. Moreover I cannot believe some of the blatant "junk" that is in this article, and I cannot understand how it has been allowed to remain here. The group advertises by wearing t-shirts? Why in the world is this worth mentioning? Many, many people use apparel as advertising- do all of their wikipedia entries mention this? According to the young lady at our church, they did speak to a lot of people on their trip, however they did not target any particular groups as this article mentions again and again. They were staying somewhere, and allowed people to come inside to talk to them, or they talked to them on the street, or if the people were afraid of being seen talking to them they met them elsewhere. People are familiar with the organization and approached her and her friends to talk to them. This article seems to imply that the volunteers chase down certain groups of people and badger them into listening to them. I think most people would realize that doing this would be counter productive to the message they were trying to spread. I am sure that there may be some overzealous volunteers out there, however I don't think that makes it fair to condemn the organization as a whole. Do volunteers undergo training before their trip? (I didn't think to ask at the time, however now I am curious). What are the organizations policies on how to approach people or who to approach? These are the types of things I expected to read here, not just quotes from people who don't like the organization. (And where are quotes from supporters of the organization then? Where is the other side? If you are going to post opinions, then you need to have both, not just one.) The article repeatedly mentions the volunteers handing out pamphlets. Again, why is this worth mentioning? Why is that special or unusual? Is that mentioned on everyone else's wikipedia page? I believe they also met people by playing the guitar and singing outside of their hotel. Perhaps that should be mentioned as well, along with a quote by someone who hates music? (That was sarcasm. Just trying to make a point). In conclusion, someone who knows something about the actual organization should look at this and provide the inquiring public with actual facts and information about the organization. That would be most helpful. And someone else, not affiliated with the organization of course, should go through and take out all the meaningless nonsense that is not helpful, constructive or at all educational, that my high school writing teacher would have called "filler". Thank you. 17:44, 8 October 2015 (UTC)24.229.12.40 (talk)

I have addressed some of your concerns. Please check out the article now. Thanks!Messianicmatt (talk) 23:52, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

Messianicmatt , please familiarize yourself with relevant wikipedia policies regarding promotion and sourcing. Thank you. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 14:39, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Mr. Swordfish, I just read the policies. Are you an official editor for Wikipedia? I understand now that the sources I cited as from a not-yet published media kit are not acceptable. Will they be acceptable when the media kit is published? The media kit is a fact sheet. It is not self-promotion. But you (I assume it was you) deleted everything I posted yesterday. For example, you deleted our Jews for Jesus Statement of Faith. I checked other Wikipedia sites of religious groups and their Statement of Faith is posted. Why did you delete ours? Also, do you see how many statements from those who oppose Jews for Jesus are on this site? It dominates the entire site, which is ridiculous. So I posted letters from people who agree with our beliefs and what we do. Yes, the letters are from our website. Is that why you deleted that entire section? It seems like you are not permitting me to post any references from our website to state our positions. You also deleted our own statements about who we are, what we do, why we do it, our own statements about the controversy over our That Jew Died for You site. I'm sorry, but I have read your policies and this still seems to be like total censorship. You did not leave up a single thing I posted yesterday. Do you have the authority to do this. Please explain. Thanks.Messianicmatt (talk) 18:53, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Messianicmatt, I am just an ordinary editor; I do not have admin status or the ability to do anything that any other can't. That said, I'm sure that any admin reviewing this would agree that your recent edits do not conform to wiki policy. It is the duty of every editor to follow the policies, and to remove material that violates it. Your edits were a clear violation of multiple policies and would have been removed by someone else if I hadn't gotten to it first.
Once your media kit is published it may be used as source material for the article, but within fairly tight limits as outlined in self source policy. Wholesale copying of promotional material is not allowed.
Also, it appears you have a conflict of interest so you should not be editing this article at all.
I would encourage you to learn a bit more about wikipedia and how the editing process works before continuing to edit pages. The village pump is a good place to start. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 21:09, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
Mr. Swordfish I have read the Conflict of Interest policy and it appears that I do have a COI. I do work for Jews for Jesus. If you read my past conversations on this talk page (see above, from 2012), you will see that I have never sought to hide that fact from Wikipedia. I just didn't know until now that that constituted a conflict of interest. So what I am going to do now is make some suggestions to the editors on this talk page and see if they agree with those suggestions and can reach a consensus and make those edits, as the COI policy states that I should not be the one making edits. I just want to add that although I am a paid employee of Jews for Jesus, I am not trying to self-promote the organization in the sense of making us look better than we are or distort anything about our organization. I am simply interested in helping this Jews for Jesus Wikipedia page to be more in balance. If you read the comments from other editors above, you will see that many of them, who have no axe to grind one way or the other, feel this page is way out of balance in that it gives much space to those who oppose Jews for Jesus and little to no information about the history, stated mission and operations of the Jews for Jesus organization. I will respect the Wikipedia policies and begin to make some suggestions on this talk page, but I will not make the edits myself.Messianicmatt (talk) 17:01, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
Mr. Swordfish I have followed your advice and listed myself as having a COI, as you can see if you look at the item below this one. I floated an idea for changing the lead sentence, but no one has replied since one initial exchange (see below). So I thought I would run my request by you, and perhaps you can share it with other editors. Here it is:

I would like to suggest an edit to the lead sentence for this article. Regarding the use of the term "convert," I am not alone in my reluctance to use this term. The following website gives this advice about talking with Jewish people about Jesus: "'Convert' implies leaving behind one’s Jewishness. It is better to speak about 'becoming a believer (or follower) of Jesus.' But it is appropriate to explain that biblical conversion was spoken of by the prophets as meaning “turning back to God” rather than “changing one’s religion” (see Isa. 44:22; Jer. 4:1; 24:7; Joel 2:12).[1] Here's a similar thought from another website: "Many Jews don’t like to be called converts since they already believed in God, and in their religious observances, they were already responding to that part of the Word of God in the Tanakh, or what we call the Old Testament. When we recognize the Messiah and enter His Church, we fulfill or complete our Old Testament Faith. But we do not lose our ethnicity, who we are."[2]

Here's my suggested lead sentence: "Jews for Jesus is a non-profit organization founded in 1973 which seeks to share its belief that Jesus is the promised Messiah of the Jewish people."Messianicmatt (talk) 22:23, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

There are several other things that I believe need editing, but I would like to first get the editors to agree to changing the opening sentence. What do you think of my suggested change?

Hello all. I am the original poster of this thread from last year, and after the opinionated piece I found here on what is supposed to be a factual site, I did my own research into the "Jews for Jesus", by seeking out and speaking to other members of the organization. I am not affiliated with the organization in any way, I am not Jewish, I am a proud UCC member, and part of our task given to us by God is to love our neighbors, so I wanted to learn more about our "Jews for Jesus" neighbors. It is unfortunate that the other poster on here had a conflict of interest, because I would very much like to have heard what he said. I am the one who edited the first sentence, because after everything I have heard from the people I have met, that is a more accurate description of what they do. Anyone who alters it should be required to speak to at least one of these members before they can do anything. This organization is not trying to "covert" anyone, nor are they trying to eliminate Judaism or anything of the sort. Jesus WAS a Jew. Other Jews of the time recognized him as the Messiah, and followed him. He did not tell them they couldn't be Jewish, or that they should abandon their ways. Jews for Jesus volunteers that I have met are still Jewish- Kosher, prayerful, celebrate Hanukkah, etc.- and all of them had one or both Jewish parents. The article claims someone said these people are not Jewish but Christians pretending to be Jewish. I did not meet anyone like that, however if you consider anyone believing in Christ to be a "Christian", then they would now be your definition of "Christian", however they were born, and still consider themselves to be, Jewish. They observe the Jewish rites and rituals, those who had children were raising them as Jewish, with the only difference being they believed in the teachings of Christ, had read the New Testament of the Bible as well, and believe as Jesus said, the only way to the Father was through Him. All the "Jews for Jesus" people I met, wanted to share the teachings of Christ, and recognize that to get to the Father, one must accept Christ into their heart, and follow his ways. They had no desire to abandon their Jewish ways, or "convert" anyone, but simply teach others to love one another, care for one another, care for our Earth, and be the best person you can be, every day. Thank God for what you have, don't fret over what you don't have, and know that God will care for you. I don't see any of these core beliefs that they all held reflected in this article. Now, with millions of Jews for Jesus members all over the world, I have only met a tiny handful, and I suppose it's possible that these people I have met are "special", or act differently from everyone else in the group, and I am sure there are zealots out there just as with everything else (from religion, to sports, to food eating contests,) but in general, everything I have seen and heard in my research has shown a peaceful, loving, accepting group of people, who are Jewish, and believe in the teachings of Christ. I would like to see that reflected in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.77.172.51 (talk) 01:42, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

I am an employee of Jews for Jesus and want to work with Wikipedia editors to improve this page[edit]

Now that I have read the Conflict of Interest policy, I realize that as a paid employee of Jews for Jesus, I do have a COI. Therefore, if I understand the policy correctly, it is inappropriate for me to make any edits to this page, and I will abide by that (unless you advise me otherwise). Having said that, I would like to begin to work with you in small pieces on this article. The opening statement of this article is currently as follows: "Jews for Jesus is a Messianic Jewish evangelical organization that focuses on the conversion of Jews to Christianity." One major problem I have with this statement is that I don't see any source (footnote). The other problem is that "conversion" is a highly-charged term, due to atrocities like the Spanish Inquisition in which Jewish people were forced to convert under threat of execution. As a Jewish person myself, I can assure you that there is a visceral reaction to the term "conversion" because of the past atrocities. That's why Jews for Jesus prefers not to use that term, yet is still very clear on the fact that we want to present the claims of Jesus to Jewish people for their consideration. And I hope nobody on this forum is going to go the route of disputing whether I am a Jew or not. My parents, grandparents, their parents, etc. are Jewish. Almost all of my grandmother's family from Lithuania were killed in the Holocaust. The Nazis had no question we were Jews. Ethnically, I am Jewish. I didn't suddenly become ethnically not a Jew when I came to believe that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. With that out of the way, I would like to suggest that the editors of this page replace the opening statement with this one: "The stated mission of Jews for Jesus is 'to make the Messiahship of Jesus an unavoidable issue to our Jewish people worldwide'"[1] Please note that this is a third-party source, a feature story on Jews for Jesus in the Atlantic Monthly. Please let me know if you as editors can agree on this change and, if so, if one of you can go ahead and make the edit. Finally, I would like to place the "connected contributor" template on the top of this Talk Page to disclose that I am a paid employee of Jews for Jesus, but I don't know how to do that. Can someone show me how! Thank you!Messianicmatt (talk) 17:44, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

References

Thanks for making the required disclosure. I've put the template above the page as you requested here. So far as your suggested language, that's a bit puffy and marketese for a neutral article, and the language is a bit over the top. I don't really see attempts at conversion as saying something negative; certainly Jews for Jesus does, in some way, seek to change people's religious beliefs or convince them to follow different religious principles. We don't normally have references in the lead, since the lead should always be supported by the article text, so you generally should look to the article body for references rather than the lead. There is a lot that does need done, like yanking out verbatim marketing materials and unreferenced criticism. Seraphimblade Talk to me 17:58, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

I would like to suggest an edit to the lead sentence for this article. Regarding the use of the term "convert," I am not alone in my reluctance to use this term. The following website gives this advice about talking with Jewish people about Jesus: "'Convert' implies leaving behind one’s Jewishness. It is better to speak about 'becoming a believer (or follower) of Jesus.' But it is appropriate to explain that biblical conversion was spoken of by the prophets as meaning “turning back to God” rather than “changing one’s religion” (see Isa. 44:22; Jer. 4:1; 24:7; Joel 2:12).[1] Here's a similar thought from another website: "Many Jews don’t like to be called converts since they already believed in God, and in their religious observances, they were already responding to that part of the Word of God in the Tanakh, or what we call the Old Testament. When we recognize the Messiah and enter His Church, we fulfill or complete our Old Testament Faith. But we do not lose our ethnicity, who we are."[2]

Here's my suggested lead sentence: "Jews for Jesus is a non-profit organization founded in 1973 which seeks to share its belief that Jesus is the promised Messiah of the Jewish people."

There are several other things that I believe need editing, but I would like to first get the editors to agree to changing the opening sentence. What do you think of my suggested change?Messianicmatt (talk) 22:02, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

I would like to suggest an edit to the lead sentence for this article. Regarding the use of the term "convert," I am not alone in my reluctance to use this term. The following website gives this advice about talking with Jewish people about Jesus: "'Convert' implies leaving behind one’s Jewishness. It is better to speak about 'becoming a believer (or follower) of Jesus.' But it is appropriate to explain that biblical conversion was spoken of by the prophets as meaning “turning back to God” rather than “changing one’s religion” (see Isa. 44:22; Jer. 4:1; 24:7; Joel 2:12).[3] Here's a similar thought from another website: "Many Jews don’t like to be called converts since they already believed in God, and in their religious observances, they were already responding to that part of the Word of God in the Tanakh, or what we call the Old Testament. When we recognize the Messiah and enter His Church, we fulfill or complete our Old Testament Faith. But we do not lose our ethnicity, who we are."[4]

Here's my suggested lead sentence: "Jews for Jesus is a non-profit organization founded in 1973 which seeks to share its belief that Jesus is the promised Messiah of the Jewish people."Messianicmatt (talk) 18:42, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

The article is directed at ordinary users of English. I appreciate that you dislike the word "convert", it is bad for your image, and you avoid it in your own material. However it is the ordinary English word for what the organisation seeks to do. Your PR needs are irrelevant here. Maproom (talk) 23:36, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Maproom I understand that the readers are ordinary users of English. However, this is not about our "image," nor is it about our "PR needs," as you put it, which I find offensive. We don't "convert" anyone. We share the message, our belief that Jesus is the Messiah. Then it's between the person and God as to what they do with it. And it is not just Jews for Jesus who avoids the word "convert." As you can see from the other websites I cited, there is a common understanding among many Christians that "convert" implies that a Jewish person stops being Jewish. So among the "ordinary users of English" in Christian circles (which encompasses a large portion of the general population), the word "convert" is not used when referring to Jewish believers in Jesus. I would appreciate getting feedback from other editors on this point. Messianicmatt (talk) 19:05, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

dmsedra I'm new to Wikipedia, so apologies if I'm doing this wrong. However, I agree with Maproom in that the word "convert" seems appropriate. While Judaism is the precursor to and has many close ties to Christianity, they are distinct religions today. They may be closer than say Buddhism and Judaism, but are not different sects of the same religion like Salafi and Wahabi Islam. Thus, I think that in standard usage today, "convert" would be appropriate. Dmsedra (talk) 01:33, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

X mark.svg Not done, This is an inane semantic argument. The usage here of the word convert is consistent with its everyday meaning, to change religious affiliation. There is no implication that a Jordanian who converts from Islam to Christianity loses their identity as an Arab. Similarly there is no such implication here. The use of terms like “turning back to God” or "share the message" are colloquialisms are are not appropriate in an encyclopedia article. TimothyJosephWood 18:01, 18 April 2016 (UTC)


Messianic Judaism as Christianity??[edit]

The first line includes the following ... focuses on the conversion of Jews to Christianity. Most Messianic Jews would not agree on the grounds Christianity is the faith Jesus/Yehshua taught filtered through a Greek and eventually Latin lens accepted by gentiles. Evidence of this is that Messianic Jews call the man Yehshua rather than Jesus - his Hebrew name rather than a 17th century Anglicized form of Iesu. Furthermore Messianic Jews correctly point out that their acceptance of Jesus as Hebrew messiah makes them no less 'Jewish' than Buddhist Jews who accept Buddha, or Atheist Jews who deny the existence of God or gods. Most Messianic Jews continue to practice their Judaism. Also, the history of the Messianic Jewish acceptance of Jesus as their Messiah differs from the history of the Christian church so there are interpretative differences between Christian reading of texts and Messianic Jewish readings even if the object of their veneration is the same. In Israel recent survey's have shown that most Israeli's don't see Messianic Jews as non-Jews (most don't care what they believe) - though some more militant elements of society (namely Orthodox) do. The connection Messianic Judaism has with Christianity is that Messianic Jews believe the gentiles have 'correctly identified Yehshua as Israel's Messiah' so Christianity remains a religion of gentiles and Messianic Judaism is the region of Jews (albeit a minority), with acceptance of Jesus/Yehshua as the common point. Accordingly, it would be better (meaning more neutral) if the first line read something to the effect 'focus on proclaiming acceptance of Yehshua (who Christian's call Jesus) as the long awaited Hebrew Messiah'. As it reads now, however, it displays an anti bias (likely because of the controversy). Judaism has a long history of seeking and proclaiming messiah's [Chabad for example] so really proclaiming another as messiah is not foreign to Judaism.

LinuxDude (talk) 23:41, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

  1. ^ http://www.equip.org/article/how-to-share-the-gospel-with-your-jewish-friends/
  2. ^ http://www.hebrewcatholic.net/are-jewish-converts-still-jewish/
  3. ^ http://www.equip.org/article/how-to-share-the-gospel-with-your-jewish-friends/
  4. ^ http://www.hebrewcatholic.net/are-jewish-converts-still-jewish/