Talk:Joanot Martorell

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The fact that Jonanot Martorell didn't specify in which language he wrote his famous book, doesn't means that he wrote it in catalan nor in valencian.

I cannot understand this gross mistake. Joanot Martorell specifies twice in the first pages of the "Tirant" that he writes in valentian.

see this. It is the 2nd page of the Tirant: [1]

Straw man, perhaps?[edit]

The question of whether Catalan and Valencian are or are not the same language is a question best left to the folks directly involved. There are plenty of good reasons to bicker about Martorell; let's stick to them.

Although political bias often use one name or the other, or even state they are different languages, it should be noted Catalan and Valencian are two names for the same language (from a linguistic point of view). Both are often used to describe two varieties (the former in Catalonia, the latter prefered in the land of Valencia), but these are rather contemporary names. During centuries, the term llemosí (Limousin) was used indistinctly to refer to all the dialectal variants of this language, and the closely related Occitan dialects. In the century the Tirant was written, after a time of war and plague in Catalonia, the cultural centre of the kingdom of Aragon and many members of that time's Catalan nobility moved from Barcelona to the city of Valencia. Since there was no official, specific name for the language he was using he took the common name already used at the time.

Valencian language[edit]

The Valencian language is not catalan language, nor comes from catalan, but that comes from the occitan (in the same way that the Catalan). Therefore to denominate between parenthesis the Valencian as (Catalan) it would be like writing "Aragonese (leonine)". Joanot Martorell is a Valencian writer, that writes in Valencian and publishes in Valencia. The indication of "Catalan" is not correct, because nothing "Valencian" can be described like "Catalan".

Why the link to Catalonia?[edit]

Joanot Martorell is a valencian writer. Why there is a link to Catalonia? Valencia is not Catalonia, it has got its own culture (that is not catalan), history and political organization. He would be more rigorous not to make references to other cultures like the Catalan one, specially when political connotations of an existing nationalism in that culture exist that it tries to absorb the Valencian one.

But Valencian is only a synonyme for Catalan language, all this discussions if valencian is another language should be left to the academic circles and they all say that "valencian" is only another name for saying "catalan". With other words catalan=valencian, like castellano is the same for spanisch. The Academy who regulates the "valencian" says also that valencian is another word for the language called "catalan" in all the other areas with this language.

Greeting, Georg —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 13:52, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

--I do not know if this works like this... but I add it here --

All the discussions regarding what was the language spoken in the former Kingdom of Valencia (currently comprising more or less the provinces Alicante, Castellón and Valencia) have a decissive starting date: 25 April 1707 (Batalla de Almansa).

Since then till today, Valencian was considered as a secondary and ashaming language. Until then, Valencia was well over any economic, political or lingustic level of Catalonia. Note that there is NO SINGLE Catalan author of ANY of the books representing the "Gold Age of Catalan", all authors were Valencian or Balear [!!!!]. But for the "academics" there is no "Golden Age of Valencian" or "Balear".

As a bit regarding economic and political power: currently the "academics" still try to silence, and lie, regarding the "discovery" of America: it is presented as the only will and effort of Queen Isabel de Aragón, while almost all the money invested in such expedition was coming from the fortune made by the Aragonese jew, Luis de Santángel, that move to Valencia (St. Thomas Church, exactly) to take profit of the economic flourishing of the Kingdom of Valencia's economy (at that time already merged into the Kingdom of Spain), even when he already had a wealthy and politically influencing family in Aragon.

Coming back to Almansa, Valencia lost then all his special and beneficial consideration -"Fueros" or "Furs"- as one singular and economically leading region of Spain. Fact that is silenced still today, and even converted into to a disaster for the "Catalan", when it is indeed rather the contrary: Catalan started to be over Valencian only after that battle.

Until that time nobody ever contested that Joanot Martorell wrote in Valencian and the language of the Kingdom of Valencia was Valencian, even the own Miguel de Cervantes referred to Tirant lo Blanch as a masterpiece of the literature (so far known by him), and in another book of Cervantes referred to Valencian as the second sweetest language in the world, after portuguese.

Note this important reference, Cervantes "arguably" the most respected "academic" on Spanish Literature on Earth ever existed.

The reference in the text above in this discussion page in that the "academics" in Valencia consider Catalan and Valencian as synonym is a political decission nothing to do with scientific arguments, not even legal, since still the Valencian Language is the Language of the Valencian Community. This consideration of Catalan as synonym of Valencian is just a one more political step to erase the existence of Valencian, and to legally introduce that in the Valencian Community it is spoken Catalan.

The "academics" that defended the use of Valencian were integrated in the "Real Academy of Valencian Culture" well before any attempts to erase any references to Valencian. Still today such Real Academia de Cultura Valenciana exists and does not accept any of the arguments of a sythetic, ridiculous and politically biased towards Catalonia new institution called "Valencian Academy of the Language" (created in 1998 !!!!!!) : these "academics" were appointed by politicians to overcome the postulates of the "competitor" academics that defended the singularity and correct name "Valencian" in the "Real Academia de Cultura Valenciana".

The "academics" nowadays are influenced by the fact that during the Civil War of 1936-39, and thereafter, Catalan was strongly supported by the Catalan burguesy, and as a sign of rebelion to the power of General Franco. Many Valencians contrary to the dictator Franco, just needed to sum up with those of Catalonia under a common sign, that was the Catalan language. Such left-winged generation, assuming the false postulates of Catalonia regarding the Valencian dependece to Catalan [they didn't give a pin regarding language issues, they only wanted to defeat Franco], received, when the Socialist Party arrived to the Power in the 80's, many administrative, political (obvious), economic, media and University powers.

From there, this left-winged generation of Valencians, began an unprecendet task of rewriting the history of Valencian. All those who studied Lingustics in the Valencian Universities (as a general term for Alicante, Castellon and Valencia regions) were taught the pan-Catalonian postulates and needed to assume them, in between other things to pass the exams. This way there is a current generation of "academics" formed into the Catalan postulates.

Further, and in consistency with the well known endemic problem of Science and Research in Spain, those pan-Catalonian literates (so far, no masterpiece has arised from them) were put in prestigue academic positions ("Cátedras") in the University, due to political affiliation to left-winged parties.

Conclusion: there exist no single "academic" voice neglecting the existence of Valencian that is not a biassed product of politics in the last 30 years. Therefore, care need be taken when leaving this discusion to "academic" circles: they do not follow any serious consideration of historical facts, rather, selecting those of benefit for the pan-Catalonian postulates, and even neglecting unquestionable historic facts (as that written proofs of the "miserably academic Miguel de Cervantes).

Another bit about the ridiculous, hilarious and serious "scientific" approach to neglect the existence of Valencian: in a masterpiece of the pan-Catalonian movement, "The language of the Valencians", it is said that a key counter-proof of the status of Valencian [as independent language, and its recognition as such in whole Spain and Europa for CENTURIES], a cite referring to "Valencian" refers actually to "Catalan".

The polemic cite says that a document was written in "Vulgar Valencian Language". By esotheric, ridiculous and ashaming scientific argumentation, the nowadays academics deduce that the term "Vulgar" refers actually to "dialect of Catalan" [unbelievable, but true!!!!]

It is crystal clear that "vulgar" means "common", "of the people" -translation from Latin-, since the people of Valencia was just speaking Valencian (and Latin and Spanish were considered not "Vulgar" or "common", rather, "high-level" languages used by Scholars).

The current "academics" see (crystal clear as well...) that "vulgar" was meant to say "dialect of Catalan".

This astonishing conlusion to read "dialect of Catalan" when it says "common Valencian" is a jewel into knowing which "scientific" methods follow the current linguists in Spain.

Noteworthy, for this "Hero" of confussion and misinterpretation of the history are devoted plenty of schools and streets in the Valencian Community, as a political gift for providing to the pan-Catalanian theories a "scientific" proof of the unexistence of Valencian.


—Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 11:23, 14 March 2009 (UTC)