Talk:Johann Sebastian Bach

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Former good article Johann Sebastian Bach was one of the Music good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Nomination for merging of Template:Bach cantatas[edit]

Template:Bach cantatas has been nominated for merging with Template:Cantatas, motets and oratorios by BWV number. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Thank you. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:57, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Closed --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:17, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

Split navinfobox in navinfobox + sidebar?[edit]

Unhide to see the proposal...

Proposal to split the navinfobox in navinfobox + sidebar

Current navinfobox

Johann Sebastian Bach
Johann Sebastian Bach.jpg
Portrait of Bach, aged 61, by E. G. Haussmann, 1748
Born

Eisenach
Died 28 July 1750(1750-07-28) (aged 65)
Leipzig
Works List of compositions
Signature
Johann Sebastian Bach signature.svg

Johann Sebastian Bach (31 March [O.S. 21 March] 1685 – 28 July 1750) was a German composer and musician of the Baroque period. He enriched established German styles through his skill in counterpoint, harmonic and motivic organisation, and the adaptation of rhythms, forms, and textures from abroad, particularly from Italy and France. Bach's compositions include the Brandenburg Concertos, the Goldberg Variations, the Mass in B minor, two Passions, and over three hundred cantatas of which around two hundred survive. His music is revered for its technical command, artistic beauty, and intellectual depth.

Bach's abilities as an organist were highly respected during his lifetime, although he was not widely recognised as a great composer until a revival of interest in and performances of his music in the first half of the 19th century. He is now generally regarded as one of the greatest composers of all time.

Proposed split

Johann Sebastian Bach
Johann Sebastian Bach.jpg
Haussmann's Portrait of Bach (1748)
Born 21 March 1685 (O.S.)
31 March 1685 (N.S.)
Eisenach
Died 28 July 1750(1750-07-28) (aged 65)
Leipzig
Signature
Johann Sebastian Bach signature.svg

Johann Sebastian Bach (31 March [O.S. 21 March] 1685 – 28 July 1750) was a German composer and musician of the Baroque period. He enriched established German styles through his skill in counterpoint, harmonic and motivic organisation, and the adaptation of rhythms, forms, and textures from abroad, particularly from Italy and France. Bach's compositions include the Brandenburg Concertos, the Goldberg Variations, the Mass in B minor, two Passions, and over three hundred cantatas of which around two hundred survive. His music is revered for its technical command, artistic beauty, and intellectual depth.

Bach's abilities as an organist were highly respected during his lifetime, although he was not widely recognised as a great composer until a revival of interest in and performances of his music in the first half of the 19th century. He is now generally regarded as one of the greatest composers of all time.

Comments[edit]

  • Support proposed split (as proposer). --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:33, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment: the different formats of infobox and sidebar are not pleasing, and the large header of the navboxis distracting. IF we need to do something, which I doubt because all these links should be in the lead, we could add them to the infobox. But why. I expect navigation information at the bottom
    • Re. "...different formats of infobox and sidebar..." – Do they show in a different format on your screen? I tried to make them the same format in the proposal. If you can explain which features show differently to you, this can probably be fixed.
      • "Mine" are not relevant, such things depend on user preferences. I have my infoboxes with rounded corners, and it's a bit more narrow than the other. --GA
        • For me, the two boxes are the same width. — Eru·tuon 07:37, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
          • What I said, your preferences are probably different, - so why not put it in one box, still IF we need that detail. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:09, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
    • Re. "large header of the navbox" – I suppose you intended to say "large header of the sidebar" (which indeed could be made smaller)?
      • You are right, it was short for side-navebox. IF we had two boxes, the name Bach would not need to be repeated. --GA
        • I have added an if-statement that removes the text "by Johann Sebastian Bach" from the header when the template is on this page. Can be undone if it's not what you want. — Eru·tuon 07:31, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
    • Re. "all these links should be in the lead" – I copied the current lead with the examples above, which makes it easier to check: no not all of the lists are mentioned in the current lead (which is BTW rather shortish for such long article). Maybe a first step would be to make the lead somewhat more in proportion to the article length (+/- 4 paragraphs?) --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:01, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
      • That's why I said "should be". I said many times - often in opera discussions, infobox for the specific work vs. side-navebox with links to other works by the composer - that I don't understand why a reader who just arrived at an article should be sent away. IF a side-navebox, perhaps later in the article, where the work is covered? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:15, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
  • (1) There is no "proposal" in that collapsed section. (2) There is a general consensus against having Bach sidebars, here, and no consensus to have a sidebar on this article. (3) Therefore I'm not sure what the purpose of this thread is. Perhaps the word "in" is meant to be "into" in the header of the thread and the collapsed section. Softlavender (talk) 08:16, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
  • I don't see a split but an additional navigation box. Normally, those are placed at the bottom. It's distracting in the lead and pushes the image "Places where Bach lived" too far down when the TOC is collapsed. Francis' change of the box's width from 300px to 255px was welcome here, though. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 11:23, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

Pronunciation (again)[edit]

It was established at Talk:Johann Sebastian Bach/Archive 15#Pronunciation footnote for name in March/May this year that the German pronunciation is [ˈjoːhan zeˈbasti̯an ˈbax], 1st name stressed on 1st syllable. This edit on 5 May by User:Mr KEBAB changed it to "German pronunciation: [joˈhan zeˈbasti̯an ˈbax]. His first name can also be pronounced [ˈjoːhan], with stress on the first syllable." This was challenged by User:Erutuon on 4 September, and reverted by Mr KEBAB the next day. Erutuon remarked in his edit summary that "accent of Johann is on first syllable; accent on second syllable only in longer form Johannes". I think Erutuon is correct and the pronunciation ought to be changed back to [ˈjoːhan]. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 01:53, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

It's not about who you think is correct but what the sources say.
Krech et al. (2009:628): Johann ʝohˈan od. ʝˈoː... (NOTE: we use ⟨j⟩ for their ⟨ʝ⟩ and transcribe stress before consonants)
Mangold (2005:443): Johann joˈhan, auch: ˈjoːhan
As you can see, not only do they include both variants, they also list the finally-stressed pronunciation before the initially-stressed one. Mr KEBAB (talk) 07:12, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
@Softlavender:, are you serious? Two pronunciation dictionaries for German list a pronunciation and you call it "non-standard"? Two non-native speakers revert a sourced pronunciation, yet I'm the one who somehow has to gain the consensus? The discussion Michael Bednarek linked to lists no sources (as far as the native German pronunciation is concerned), so it's not relevant. I'm afraid I have to remind both of you of WP:RS and WP:OR! Reverting back. Mr KEBAB (talk) 07:36, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
Standard German pronunciation of Johann is accented on the first syllable. Please gain WP:CONSENSUS on this talk-page before changing it again. If the sources we quote in the footnote actually contradict this, then it's probably a good idea for the article to use sources that use the correct German pronunciation of Johann. -- Softlavender (talk) 07:42, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
Adding some OR: In Germany, it will be stressed on the first syllable, in Austria on the second, therefore dictionaries of the German language will have both. Bach was not Austrian. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:47, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
For Mr KEBAB's consideration: a) I am a native German speaker; b) please read WP:BRD; c) read the talk page archives; d) sources can be wrong – there was a long-running dispute about a wrong solution in a reputable source to a chess problem years ago on Wikipedia; this is simpler than that. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 07:51, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
@Softlavender: OK let me now recommend you reading WP:EXPERTISE and WP:THEREMUSTBESOURCES.
@Gerda Arendt: This is the first valuable response in this thread, thank you. The problem I have is that the finally-stressed pronunciation is actually listed first in both of those dictionaries, and so it would be very good to see a source that confirms the German-Austrian distinction in stress.
@Michael Bednarek: re C: please link the relevant discussions. Re D: both sources list the same pronunciations, so that significantly reduces the risk that they're wrong. Plus, Gerda Arendt has already said that according to her knowledge, the finally-stressed variant appears in the Austrian variety. Mr KEBAB (talk) 08:02, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
More OR: Austrian places such as St. Johann in Tirol are stressed on the second syllable. German radio announcers stress on the first syllable. One of the dearest people in my life is called Johann, first syllable. It's also a more musical flow ;) - Excuse me for the weekend, please, going to sing (Mendelssohn). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:16, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
Counterevidence, though it may not be very strong: German Wiktionary only lists the initial-stress version. Maybe there aren't enough Austrians there? — Eru·tuon 08:20, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
(2×ec) @Mr KEBAB: so some OR is OK, if it coincides with your position? As Gerda wrote, JSB wasn't Austrian, and I'm not convinced that that variant is "received pronunciation" for Bach's first name in Austria. You might also consider Johann and de:wikt:Johann – and don't retort with WP:OTHERSTUFF or similar. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 08:22, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
Can anyone fluent in German begin the discussion on German Wiktionary/Wikipedia (and post a link to it here)?
@Gerda Arendt and Erutuon: Thanks.
@Michael Bednarek: By "valuable" I meant not a post like "it's not like that because I say so". Also, remember that WP:OR doesn't apply to talk pages, and we're still discussing the issue, and I asked Gerda for a source, not merely went with her words (so your criticism is invalid). I'm also not sure why you're linking to WP:OTHERSTUFF, maybe you meant a different policy/guideline? I'm still waiting for the links to the archived discussions by the way. Mr KEBAB (talk) 08:33, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
More OR: I try so far in vain to find any two-syllable German name that is NOT stressed on the first syllable: Anna Thomas Werner Rudolf Anton Dietrich. For those who don't know: I am German. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:45, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
Michael Bednarek linked to the archive discussions in his OP. Softlavender (talk) 08:38, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
I may be missing something but there's not a single mention of the stress issue there, and one of the sources used there (Dictionary.com) is unreliable. I don't think it's relevant, unless the Phonetics For Dummies source provides German pronunciation (I don't know that). Mr KEBAB (talk) 09:11, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
I'm active on English Wiktionary, and I will ask about the pronunciation of Johann there if no one says in the next day that they have posted on German Wiktionary. — Eru·tuon 20:12, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Note: Since Mr KEBAB himself added those two citations to the article [1], and since they vary from standard usage, I'm going to remove them until a consensus is gained to use them as citations anywhere in the article. Softlavender (talk) 09:05, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
    • Fair enough, I guess. Mr KEBAB (talk) 09:11, 9 September 2016 (UTC)