Talk:John, Constable of Portugal
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This page repeats myths since debunked in Peter Russell's recent biography of Henry the Navigator. Russell cites specific letters from Fernando making quite clear that he wanted very much to come home to Portugal. Fernando essentially made himself a hostage to guarantee the Portuguese surrender of Ceuta, which Henry agreed to and then refused to do. I suggest an edit.
Do yout think this article should be renamed Infante João, Lord of Reguengos, since it is his title and since every other article on a Portuguese royal has their correspondent title following his name? Joaopais 19:20, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
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Duke of Beja
Is it a widely attested fact with sources from multiple periods of history and across both Portuguese and English sources that he was duke of Beja? Or is it a mistake of a few sources? --The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 22:24, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
- Joao was not the Duke of Beja, whatever sources Mr.Kiernan has they are isolated mistakes. Find one Portuguese source that gives him the title. Hell, I even went to Batalha monastery today and his tomb's plaque is inscribed as: Infante Joao, Lord of Reguengos de Monsaraz. Thanks, Cristiano Tomás (talk) 23:11, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
- Also it is questionable why the title passed to Infante Ferdinand, Duke of Viseu instead of to John's surviving son Diogo, Constable of Portugal. BTW either way I prefer John, Constable of Portugal to John, Lord of Reguengos de Monsaraz since he was called O Infante Condestável ("the Constable Prince").--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 22:23, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
- To repeat my comment: the title of "Duke of Beja" was created for the first time in February 1453 by Afonso V for his brother Ferdinand. That is over ten years after the death of John. That is definite. There is no Portuguese source or history book (and I have several dozen) that refers to him as "Duke of Beja" (almost all refer to his brothers Peter as Duke of Coimbra and Henry as Duke of Viseu, but he isn't). On the contrary, there are long passages explaining the difficulties of cobbling together the duchies for Peter and Henry, and how John got left out of a territorial donation and was given the Order of Santiago as compensation. This "Duke of Beja" is a plain error. No doubt about it.
- (That said, I am also having difficulties confirming explicitly that John received the Lordship of Reguengos de Monsaraz. There are documents from 1424 granting John the royal property of Colares and Belas (in the Sintra region) via dowry from his marriage to Isabel of Barcelos, with commentary noting that Colares and Belas were originally the dominions of the constable Nuno Alvares Pereira; Isabel was the constable's granddaughter, and the marriage was arranged precisely because it was the only way the king could find some territory to give prince John. But I am a little concerned that I'm not finding independent confirmation of Reguengos de Monsaraz. Now the word "reguengo" just means "royal property", and wonder if some Wiki editor just read "regengos de Colares e de Belas", and thought "reguengos" meant a third dominion, the town of "Reguengos de Monsaraz", rather than the generic term for the royal property of Colares and Belas (e.g. ). Can anyone confirm he held the Lordship of Reguengos de Monsaraz? Monsaraz was apparently also a property of Nuno Alvares Pereira, but I can't find confirmation that it was transferred in 1424.) Walrasiad (talk) 23:47, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
I strongly disapprove of this latest move. Maybe this should be open for general discussion, as the plethora of Infantes in article titles are inexplicable and marring the English Wikipedia (they don't exist in Portuguese or Spanish Wikipedia article titles). "Infante" should never be in the article title prefacing a name.
- First off, "Infante John" is likely to be confused with a proper name. It is not a commonly recognizable title.
- Secondly, Infante isn't even a proper title. It is an honorific. It merely denotes somebody (anybody) who is a legitimate child of a king.
- Thirdly, the phrasing is awkward and wrong. "Infante John" is not a phrase you'll find in any source. The phrasing of the Portuguese honorific requires the use of "Dom", i.e. it is "Infante Dom Joao" (never "Infante Joao"), and it translates in English to "Prince John" (like "Prince Henry the Navigator", not "Infante Henry").
- Fourthly, Wikipedia article titles don't list people with titles or honorifics in their prefixes - it is "John, King of England" not "King John of England", "Edward the Black Prince", not "Prince Edward the Black".
I wouldn't object to the "John, the Constable-Prince of Portugal" or even "John, the Constable-Infante", but it definitely shouldn't be prefacing the name. Walrasiad (talk) 17:56, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
- I would! It is either John, Constable of Portugal or nothing else for me. His son is just Diogo, Constable of Portugal. I reverting it back solely because Cristiano Tomás didn't request it.
- As for the whole Infante thing, I feel like we should start an rule that all pre-Braganza (on second thought pre-Manuel I since it is quite tricky with his daughter and the two Edward, Duke of Guimarães) infantes should not have the prefixes in the title like the Medieval English royals but still have it mentioned in the article content. While later Braganza infantes living in an era, where royal titles and styles have been really more defined, should fit more with the British model having Infante name, Title of place or Infante name of Portugal... User:Walrasiad, I remember I had a conversation with you on Talk:Infante Ferdinand, Duke of Viseu about the same thing and you pointed out grandchildren of Portuguese monarchs were rarely referred to as infante in medieval times, am I correct. And looking back on it I am surprise it was closed without a consensus considering the fact I took back my initial oppose and support a simpler move without the numbers or the prefix of infante.--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 04:04, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well, "the Constable-Prince" was and is his commonly-used nickname. Like Henry the Navigator, Ferdinand the Holy Prince, Edward the Black Prince, it is frequent to find John the Constable Prince (he's the only constable who was an infante).
- Yes, nobody but the legitimate sons and daughters of a king (and only a king) was referred to as "Infante". The appellation does not transmit further - the son of an Infante is not an Infante. Walrasiad (talk) 13:15, 13 August 2013 (UTC)