Talk:John Amos Comenius
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Reference to the Moravian Brethren as a "sect" is inaccurate by definition. A sect is a group that breaks off from a larger group over specific differences in belief or doctrine. The Moravian Church has always been "antisectarian" and has historically worked to bring denominations together. It is the only mainline denomination that has not had a sectarian split in its over 550 years of history.
Removed questionable comment that the Janua linguarum reserata led to Comenius being a particular target of the Counter Reformation. There is no evidence of this. The Counter Reformation was in full steam and crushing anything Protestant in its way, ranging from Copernicus to Comenius. Since the Unity had long been a sore spot for Rome, and the population of members were physically between the Roman Catholic armies and the northern European armies, the Unity of Brethren was nearly destroyed in part because of their location in the middle of the disputed lands. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JJackman (talk • contribs) 04:42, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
Some anon is pushing POV, that Comenius was not Czech nationality. Encyclopædia Britannica says about him "Czech educational reformer and religious leader,..", and he was born in the Lands of Bohemian Crown, was Czech speaking and he was author of Czech vocabulary. --Yopie (talk) 15:03, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
Dear Yopie. You simply ignore the fact that Comenius repeatedly describes himself as a Moravian, not Czech. Any contemporary arguments why he should be Czech, not Moravian, are not valid in the light of his clearly expressed national consciousness. Describing him as a Czech is thus deliberate distortion of his identity. Respect to others is a key stone of democracy. If you have problem to describe him as a "moravian" teacher (but I am curious why), I guess the note he was "czech" teacher thus should be removed to keep neutrality of the article. 184.108.40.206 (talk) 19:05, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
- Dear anon, do you have any reliable source for your POV? If not, it is only your OR.. Sorry, but WP is not space for POV pushing. And one note - WP is NOT democracy, we use consensus based on reliable and verifiable sources. --Yopie (talk) 21:11, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
Dear Yopie, it is not my POV, it is fact. Introduction to “Unum necessarium” he subscribed as “J.A. Comenius Moravus”. “Clamores Eliae” dedicated “To my lovely mother, Moravia, one of her faithful son”. Is not it clear expression of his feeling? On the other hand, do you have some evidence that Comenius describes himself as a Czech?
I hope you are just joking Wikipedia is not democracy. Do you know Neutral point of view is one of its pillar? Please, be neutral and remove your Czech POV and let Comenius just to be teacher, educator and writer. Thank you for understanding. ```` — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 19:07, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
Dear Yopie, it is three week ago I present citations from Komenský work corroborative his feeling as Moravian, not Czech. I guess you should accept this fact and you should remove your Czech POV that Komenský was “Czech teacher” and let him to be just teacher, such NPOV. Or you should explain why you push your POV. 18.104.22.168 (talk) 20:14, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
Dear Yopie, it is six weeks ago I asked you remove your Czech POV that Komenský was “Czech teacher” and let him to be just teacher, but you did not respond. Unless you respond within couple of days, I will delete it again. When you are not ready to justify you POV, do not revert my correction with argument it was vandalism! 22.214.171.124 (talk) 20:44, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
Dear Yopie. As I disputed before, any contemporary arguments (made in the name of the Czech national revival movement) why he should be Czech, not Moravian, are not valid in the light of his clearly expressed national consciousness (see verifiable ref. above), even the arguments are repeated in Encyclopædia Britannica. To the fourth reference: do you know about what nation was he talking? Komensky several times used in his work sentence "národ český a moravský", but from context it is not known if he meant one united nation or two different nations. Moreover, the term "nation" was vague in his time (even more vague than today). The language used also cannot be relevant for his nationality. Do you guess all English speaking people are the English? Please answer my questions: 1. Why do you not respect his Moravian identity, clearly expressed in his work (verifiable ref. above)? 2. Do you have some relevant (i.e. direct) evidence that Komensky described himself as a Czech?
But what more can I say? It is time to stop and part with you in blessing, my beloved country! But how? In the same manner Jacob the patriarch on his death bed blessed his sons; as Moses when he was leaving his people. From their mouth I take words and declare as a farewell a blessing for you, the Czech nation, from your LORD God, so that you may be and remain a growing branch over the wall. Even though they filled you with bitterness and shot at you, because archers hated you with a secret hate, may your bow remain unmoved, and your arms agile through the hands of the Mighty One of Jacob, through the mighty God whom your fathers serve, who helps you, and from the Almighty.
Be alive, nation blessed by God, and do not die; may your men be countless (Deut. 33:6 62 )! Bless, O Lord, your fighting, and may God accept the work your hands. Crush the loins of your adversaries, of those who hate you, that they rise not again (Deut. 33:11)! Let your time come, so that nations will say: Happy are you, O Israel! Who is like you, a people saved by the LORD, the shield of your help, and the sword of your triumph! Your enemies shall come fawning to you, and you shall tread upon their backs. (Deut 33:29)
- Of course, you are a troll, ashamed of revealing his own name, but this is so beautiful, and makes me as a Czech always crying a bit, that I use any opportunity to make it more known. It is from my own translation available on https://mcepl.fedorapeople.org/tmp/ksaft_EN.pdf (I will put it on Wikisource, soon).
- Ceplm (talk) 01:08, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
3. I do not ask you to mention Komensky was "Moravian teacher", although it is evident he was. I ask you just remove he was "Czech teacher", an unprecedented distortion of his identity. Why you do not respect neutrality of Wikipedia? 126.96.36.199 (talk) 20:59, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
although it is not polite from you to ask more references without reply, here are the refs:
"Unum necessarium" Komensky subscribed as "J.A. Comenius Moravus" http://www.etf.cuni.cz/kat-cd/unum.htm (czech translation)
"Clamores Eliae" he dedicated "To my lovely mother, Moravia, one of her faithful son...". Clamores Eliae, p.69, Kastellaun/Hunsrück : A. Henn, 1977.
"Moravian by nation, language Bohemian, profession theologian, servant of Gospel from the year of grace 1616." It is his own identifiacion in "Opera omnia didactica" 1657, http://www.uni-mannheim.de/mateo/camenaref/comenius/comenius1/p3/jpg/s468.html
Moreover, in Encyclopaedia Britannica (11th ed.), Cambridge University Press, Chisholm, Hugh, ed. (1911), "Comenius, Johann Amos", is not any note Comenius was Czech, although in contemporary edition it is. I am curious why - someone push it?
Please answer to my questions:
1. Why do you not respect his Moravian identity, clearly expressed in his work (verifiable ref. above)?
2. Do you have some relevant (i.e. direct) evidence that Komensky described himself as a Czech?
3. I do not ask you to mention Komensky was "Moravian" teacher, although it is evident he was. I ask you just remove he was "Czech" teacher, an unprecedented distortion of his identity. Why you do not respect neutrality of Wikipedia?
Commenius (lived in 17th century) did not have nationality in the present meaning of this word (which is from the 19th century). He was born in land of Moravia, so he was Moravian (he was not born in Bohemia, so he was not Bohemian/Czech - both words sounds in czech language the same = český). You can read more about that in: Válka, Josef: Dějiny Moravy 2, Morava reformace, renesance a baroka, Brno 1995, ISBN 80-85048-62_0. Pro hysek ondrej (talk) 12:40, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
Dear Yopie, I am worried we are again on the start. I changed indirect, manipulative references to direct ones based on Comenius's work with proper note "references changed to direct ones confirming Comenius's Moravian identity". Can you tell me why do you mark it as a "Unexplained deletion of refs"? By the way, I am still looking forward for your reply to my questions. Please answer and keep discussion. I want to discuss, not to fight. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 20:57, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
Last edits by Der Golem are distortion of Wikipedia neutrality when Der Golem pushed czech chauvinism over Moravians. Komensky clearly expressed his Moravian identity, not the Czech identity, as is well documented in references. I would like to ask admin to revert last Der Golem changes to the 20:57, 13 January 2015 version. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk)
Suggest including Janua Linguarum under "works--Latin" as well as throughout the text. Helps for "quick" reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by John1574 (talk • contribs) 18:04, 31 March 2015 (UTC)