Talk:John Bradford

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Copyvio[edit]

| 208.255.43.156] notes that this article is unusually similar to the Encyc. Brittanica. Accuracy? Possible clean-up efforts? Freedomlinux 19:07, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Inconsistency/Contradiction[edit]

Seems to be a small inconsistency in the article. It first states Bradford uttered his famous line "while imprisoned in the Tower of London, when he saw a criminal going to execution for his crimes." However, further on it claims he said it when he saw a criminal gang heading to execution whilst he was roaming Lancashire and Cheshire as a chaplain.

Agreed. I added the Contradict template to the article. — wfaulk 22:59, 10 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. -- SECisek 20:16, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Date of death[edit]

I'm getting confused. Encyclopedia Britannica said Bradford was burned on January 31, 1555, but others say he was condemned to death on January 31 and burned on either June 30 or July 15. January 31 can't be right. Which death date is more correct? --Angeldeb82 (talk) 16:50, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There but for the Grace of God[edit]

Do we honestly have any evidence that he said these words? I've been trying to find the origin of the phrase, and beyond the same "origin" being quoted by several encyclopedias I have been unable to track down an original piece of work, or statement by either Bradford, or his contemporaries. There in fact appears to be a circular logic with the mdern Encyclopedias and works referencing the Oxford Biographies, and the Oxford Biographies referencing the Oxford Quotations - which in turn references the Biography.

Original Research I know, but would be interested to see.--Koncorde (talk) 13:15, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Additionally, the second source contradicts the first. The first states he said it, the second states that his saying it is unlikely, and that it is more likely a "20th century coinage"

Why has evidence of the uncertainty of the phrase's attribution disappeared from the article? It is now simply referenced to an unreliable 1990s source. The earliest occurrence of the tradition I can find on google books is this 1980 source ("In the words of John Bradford: 'There but for the grace of God go I.'", no reference or further attribution). --dab (𒁳) 13:41, 23 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I fixed it. DNB in 1885 mentions the tradition (as tradition, not vouching for its authenticity). We can trace it to 1822. Attribution to Baxter may be original to Doyle. But the attribution to Neri may still bear some looking into. I don't know about Newton; perhaps he was just picked because he composed "Amazing Grace". But at least his lifetime comes close to the phrases earliest appearance in print. Perhaps he did coin it. Or invent the tradition attributing it to Bradford... --dab (𒁳) 14:17, 23 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Turns out that the Neri attribution is the one preferred by Catholics. I find it referenced in Italian by Nicholas Gruner , Preludio all’Anticristo (2004),

Ricordiamo l’esempio saggio e umile di San Filippo Neri, che una volta vide un criminale che veniva condotto alla forca per la sua esecuzione per qualche orribile delitto. San Filippo Neri gli disse in tutta verità, “Lì, ma per la grazia di Dio, ci vado io.”

but this is just a back-translation from English [1]. The first record of the Neri tradition I have so far is the 1962 one. I cannot find it in the 1745 Vita of Neri, at least when searching for "grazia di Dio", so I would tend to assume that the Neri tradition is probably younger than the Bradford one. --dab (𒁳) 14:31, 23 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

as the plot begins to thicken, I think attribution to Bradford is the most credible. Attribution to Newton and Baxter is from Victorian fiction, and probably just due to the respective authors writing from memory. Attribution to Neri seems to be an exclusively Anglo-Saxon Roman Catholic thing, not unlikely due to Sheehan (1904). As Calvinists and Catholics are unlikely to read one another's devotional literature, the two traditions could establish themselves independently of one another during the 20th century. The attribution to Bradford may still be apocryphal (and probably is), but at least we know it dates to before the 1820s. --dab (𒁳) 09:27, 25 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Assessment comment[edit]

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:John Bradford/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

The quote "But for the grace of God go I" seems incorrect. Although this is the way it is usually said today, in actuallt fact the worlds he used were , 'There but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford. From the "Encyclopedia of Word and Phrase Origins" by Robert Hendrickson, Facts on File, New York, 1997. I have altered the entry.

Last edited at 10:21, 10 August 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 20:07, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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Suggest deleting POV template[edit]

The POV template was added on 13 Jan 2018 by @Tuxipedia:. No reason was given for disputing neutrality, and no discussion about neutrality was started then or has been started since. I therefore propose deleting the template, as per WP:WTRMT Number 6. Any objections? GroupCohomologist (talk) 09:35, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Looking over the page from when I added the template, I can't see anything offensive. Given it was two and a half years ago, I have no recollection of editing this article, so I suspect it might have been a rogue Twinkle mistake on my part. I'll remove the POV template. — Tuxipεdia(talk) 06:01, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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