Talk:John Rolph

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:John Rolph (politician)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk · contribs) 20:09, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Hi! I'll take this one. If you have any queries about why I've done/said something please do say!

• All images seem tagged correctly
• An other people link to John Rolph would be appropriate at the top
  • Done
• Duplicate links:

• Upper Canada Rebellion in the lead twice
• St. Thomas, Ontario twice in Early life
• Robert Baldwin in Early life, Return to Provincial politics, and Upper Canada Rebellion
• William Lyon Mackenzie in Municipal politics and Upper Canada Rebellion
• Lower Canada Rebellion twice in Upper Canada Rebellion
• Samuel Lount in Upper Canada Rebellion and Return to Canada
• John Charles Dent in Years in the US and Legacy

• • •  Removed

Lead

• Link reform faction to Reform movement (Upper Canada)
  •  Done
• Link Parliament of the Province of Canada to Parliament of the Province of Canada
  •  Done
• Link City of Toronto/Toronto to Toronto
  •  Done
• In reading the lead before any other part, the connection between the executive council resigning and Rolph helping to plan the rebellion is not clear, if there even is meant to be a link. Could the connection between the two events be emphasised further in the lead or if necessary a separate reason for Rolph's involvement in the rebellion be given?
  • I moved the executive council sentence to the previous paragraph to avoid linking the two events. I added information that Mackenzie convinced Rolph to support the rebellion, in exchange for Rolph becoming president of the new state. Z1720 (talk) 00:11, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
• Link Legislative Assembly of the Province of Canada to Legislative Assembly of Upper Canada
  • Wikilinked to Legislative Assembly of the Province of Canada instead. Z1720 (talk) 00:11, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
• The lead states that Rolph represented Middlesex County in the Parliament of Upper Canada while the infobox states that he represented the county in the Legislative Assembly of Upper Canada
  • In 1824, Rolph was elected to the Legislative Assembly of Upper Canada to represent Middlesex. When he was elected in 1836, the constituency boundaries changed and the constituency was called Norfolk, and he was elected to the Legislative Assembly of Upper Canada. In 1841, the colony of Upper Canada merged with Lower Canada to create the Province of Canada, so when Rolph was elected in his old constituency of Norfolk, he was elected to the Legislative Assembly of the Province of Canada. Z1720 (talk) 00:11, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
• The number of children in the infobox needs citing as the information doesn't appear elsewhere
  • This is in the body as, "In 1834, he married Grace Haines; they would have three sons and a daughter." and cited to two sources.

Early life and education

• Link first mention of Thornbury at beginning of first paragraph to Thornbury, Gloucestershire
  •  Done
• "He was baptised at Seyntemaryes parish church" - could the location ofthe church be given? As it is the name alone isn't very useful
  • Source doesn't have additional information. Z1720 (talk) 00:11, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
• First mentions of New York and Upper Canada (beginning of second paragraph) need links
  • Per MOS:OVERLINK I don't think New York should be linked, although I specified that he travelled to the city. Wikilinked Upper Canada. Z1720 (talk) 00:11, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
• Link prisoner of war camp to Prisoner-of-war camp
  •  Done
• "After the Battle of Queenston Heights, American forces released him in a prisoner exchange" - could you provide a date for his exchange/arrival in Canada?
  • Source doesn't give dates. Z1720 (talk) 15:30, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
• Link Port Talbot to Port Talbot, Ontario at first mention at end of second paragraph
  •  Done
• "Rolph was paymaster for the 2nd Norfolk militia" > "Rolph became paymaster for the 2nd Norfolk Militia"
  •  Done
• Link militia to either militia or Canadian Militia
  • Wikilinked to Canadian militia. Z1720 (talk) 15:30, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
• "The deputy inspector of accounts" - for clarification is this a member of the regiment or some kind of government official?
  • Clarified in the article.
• Link spinster in third paragraph
  •  Done
• Link called to the bar at beginning of fifth paragraph to Call to the bar
  •  Done
• "He would make frequent visits to York" - is this the same as the aforementioned New York or a separate York? Needs clarifying
  • No, it's the city of York, Upper Canada. Clarified and wikilinked in the article. Z1720 (talk) 16:32, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
• A few words explaining who exactly the three men Rolph went to York to converse with were would be useful
  •  Done

Reform politician

• Link Middlesex County to Middlesex County, Ontario at beginning of first paragraph
  •  Done
• Link deeds to Deed at beginning of first paragraph
  •  Done
• "Lieutenant governor" in the last paragraph needs linking to either the man or the position if possible
  • Linked to Lieutenant governor (Canada) Z1720 (talk) 16:39, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
• "Conservatives" is used in paragraph two and "Tory politicians" used in paragraph three. Recommend only one version is used throughout.
  • Changed to Tory, as persons at that time were more likely to be called Tories. I will search the whole article to replace instances of this. Z1720 (talk) 16:39, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
• "He decided not to run in the 1830 Upper Canada election" - this seems like quite a big decision, do we know his reasoning?
  • The source only speculates, which I don't want to add to the article. Z1720 (talk) 16:39, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Return to medicine

• "York's 1831 cholera outbreak" - is this part of the 1826–1837 cholera pandemic?
  • Perhaps, but I do not know how to integrate that wikilink to the article. Z1720 (talk) 17:31, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Municipal politics

• The lead states that he "examined the feasibility of creating the City of Toronto" while in this section it is described as "appointed to a committee to examine the incorporation of York into the city of Toronto" which sounds as if the city already existed, needs clarification one way or the other
  • Changed "into" to "to become". Z1720 (talk) 17:43, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
• First mention of aldermen on second line needs linking to Alderman
  •  Done
• "He ran to be Toronto's first mayor, but the city's aldermen chose William Lyon Mackenzie" - is it possible to provide a particular reason for his defeat?
  • Added reasoning from the source.
• Another Cholera outbreak! As previous, could it be noted whether either of these were part of the 1826–1837 cholera pandemic?
  • Lots of cholera outbreaks! (Well, just two, afaik) they were probably part of the pandemic, don't know how to integrate the link into the article. Z1720 (talk) 17:43, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Return to Provincial politics

• Perhaps introduce briefly who Bond Head was at the beginning
  • Outlined his job title.
• Why was Rolph chosen as Baldwin's replacement - was it because of their similar leanings? Might be worth elaborating on the choice
  • I added some language that said Bond Head wanted moderate reformers. Z1720 (talk) 17:55, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
• "This led the public to believe council supported" > "This led the public to believe the council supported"
  • This has already been fixed in the article. Z1720 (talk) 17:55, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
• Were any of Bond Head's unilateral decisions particularly noteworthy or was it a build up of small annoyances and changes as the text currently suggests?
  • None of them are noteworthy for Rolph's biography because Bond Head did reject or oppose a policy that Rolph championed (mostly because Rolph wasn't on the council long enough to propose his own policy agenda.)
• The beginning of the last paragraph needs adjusting to highlight that the tactics Rolph was objecting to were Bond Head's
  •  Done

Upper Canada Rebellion

• Were the aims of the Lower and Upper Canadian rebellions the same? A small section explaining what exactly their largescale goals were would be useful
  • No, and I think that's outside the scope of this article. Rolph was not involved in the Lower Canada Rebellion. Z1720 (talk) 18:10, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
• Why is it important that the support of Thomas David Morrison be noted?
  • Upon reflection, it might not be necessary to mention here, so I removed it.
• What was the provenance of Anthony Van Egmond? His wikipedia page suggests he was Dutch.
  • Provenance is sketchy, so I changed it to military officer in Napoleonic Wars. Z1720 (talk) 18:10, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
• Where was "Montgomery's Tavern"?
  • North of Toronto, clarified in the article.
• "After learning that the Lower Canada Rebellion failed" > "After learning that the Lower Canada Rebellion had failed"
  •  Done
• "and dispersed the men he gathered in Toronto" > "and dispersed the men he had gathered"; repeating Toronto here again seems superfluous
  •  Done
• Could an explanation be given as to why Rolph felt he had to flee to the United States upon Morrison's arrest?
  • Adding info that he was scared he was also going to be arrested.
• One assumes his expulsion from the legislature was in absentia and more of a formality than anything else? Worth emphasising
  • No, he was expelled specifically for helping to plan the rebellion. Clarified in the article. Z1720 (talk) 18:10, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Years in the US

• Who is Thomas Jefferson Sutherland?
  • He's not mentioned anywhere else in the article, so I removed him. Z1720 (talk) 18:17, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
• The nature of Van Rensselaer's invasion needs to be explained; was it a largescale attack that could have made considerable gains, etc?
  • Do you mean his invasion of Navy Island? If so, I added that Van Rensselaer was able to occupy the island. Z1720 (talk) 18:17, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
• Who are these Patriot troops and where do they come from?
  • Clarified that Patriot troops were mostly from American Hunters' Lodges
• "He continued his medical school in Rochester" - this sounds like the Rochester school had already been particularly mentioned but I don't believe it has been in as many words
  • Clarified that he was re-opening his medical school, the one that he established in Toronto. Z1720 (talk) 18:17, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Return to Canada

• Link "King's College in Toronto" to University of Toronto
  •  Done
• Make the beginning of the second paragraph clearer that they succeeded in dismissing Tefler
  •  Done
• "This created conflict between Rolph and Park" - is the conflict between Rolph and Park or between Rolph and Park, and the board/council?
  • Rolph and Park are on one side of the dispute while the board was on the other. Clarified in the article. Z1720 (talk) 18:37, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
• Legislative Assembly of the Province of Canada is linked for the first time here, which doesn't seem correct
  • While Rolph was in the United States, the colonies of Upper Canada and Lower Canada merged to become the Province of Canada, and their legislative assemblies merged to create the Legislative Assembly of the Province of Canada. I changed the wikilink to clarify this. Z1720 (talk) 18:37, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
• "He gave the administrative tasks of running his medical school to Dr. W. T. Aikens" - who was Aikens? If the point is that Rolph delegated some control of his school upon his return to politics then this can be done without introducing a seemingly unnecessary extra name
  • Removed the name. Z1720 (talk) 18:37, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
• A few words pointing out who exactly Hincks and Boulton were would be useful in the second paragraph
  • Gave Hincks's job title as co-premier of Canada, removed the first Boulton's name, added job title of the second Boulton. Z1720 (talk) 18:37, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
• Are HJ Boulton and WJ Boulton connected?
  • They were both legislators, but I removed HJ so this is moot. Z1720 (talk) 18:37, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
• "who opposed reformer policies" - should "reformer" be capitalised here?
  • I think that, since this sentence is referring to the movement, and not the political party, it is supposed to be lowercase. Z1720 (talk) 18:37, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
• The last sentence of the Return to politics section seems redundant, his opposition to parliament at this time has already been established
  •  Removed
• Is "the defeat of the Hincks government" the same event as " Allan MacNab and Augustin-Norbert Morin formed a coalition government"? If so that could be made clearer through some rephrasing
  • Kind of? Governments were defeated by coalitions, not necessarily elections. I tried clarifying this in the article. Z1720 (talk) 18:37, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Philosophy and views

• Some of Political philosophy seems more appropriate in the main text. His part in the moderate group could certainly be alluded to at the first introduction of his part in the Reform faction, and the explanation of Rolph's reasons for joining the rebellion deserve to go in the section describing that event. All but the Cooper and Hobhouse sections seem to be repeats and embellishments of previously established points in the text, and these points such as his leading of the Clear Grit party should be moved there, for example.
  • Removed the political philosophy section, and either deleted the information as WP:TRIVIA or moved it to the section that dealt with that issue. Z1720 (talk) 18:46, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Legacy

• Who is John King?
  • Son-in-law of Mackenzie, mentioned as "Mackenzie's sons-in-law Charles Lindsey and John King"

References look good.

That's all I have for now, feel free to make comments or explain if I've misunderstood anything in my critique! Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 21:23, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• Thanks for the review. I am busy in real life so it will take me a few days to address these concerns. If I do not respond in five days, please ping me. Z1720 (talk) 03:13, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
  • @Pickersgill-Cunliffe: I have addressed everything above, ready for another review! Z1720 (talk) 18:48, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm happy with all your corrections. I've made some minor edits of my own to wording and spelling errors which I hope you won't disagree with (I see you've changed the Tory wikilink before I managed to get my edit summary finished here - thank you!). A few queries remain:

• Rochester needs a link and/or directions, I've no idea where it is!

• Linked

• Morrison is named as a 'fellow Reform leader' in the lead but not introduced as such in the main text

• Added descriptor in the text. Z1720 (talk) 16:50, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

• 'Monroe County' in Monroe County Medical Society needs linking

•  Done

Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 14:07, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

@Pickersgill-Cunliffe: comments above. Z1720 (talk) 16:50, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

I've removed one final duplicated link and am happy to pass this article. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 16:56, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Vaticidalprophet (talk) 02:22, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

John Rolph, c. 1870

• ... that John Rolph (pictured) was arrested for trying to solve Euclid's geometry problems? Source: Godfrey, Charles (1993). John Rolph: Rebel with Causes, page 18.

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Degrassi Junior High

Improved to Good Article status by Z1720 (talk). Self-nominated at 17:40, 12 July 2021 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: - Offline/paywalled citation accepted in good faith Interesting:

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
Freely licensed: Used in article: Clear at 100px:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Epicgenius (talk) 18:23, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 9 August 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} 19:33, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

---

• John Rolph (politician) → John Rolph
• John Rolph → Deleted to make way for page move

– Per WP:TWODAB, the politician is the primary topic due to long term significance and pageviews. Sahaib (talk) 15:02, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Note: pages with content, such as John Rolph, are ineligible to be proposed titles in move requests unless they, too, are formally dispositioned. "John Rolph → Deleted to make way for page move" has been added to this request to meet that requirement. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 16:47, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

The graph you linked shows there were two spikes of interest in the politician, the largest and most recent in 2021, when they got 17k views in a single day when usually they get a handful. Other than that, the traffic is by and large comparable, so it's unclear how this proves primary topic by usage. Can you clarify the long-term significance argument? --Joy (talk) 18:48, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

The 2021 spike was when this page was featured on the main page as part of WP:DYK. Z1720 (talk) 19:01, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Appears to be the primary topic, certainly in terms of long-term significance. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:40, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.